Florida

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
But in NY where we had more protesters and more active protests our numbers are going down. What's the difference between NY and Florida that Florida's numbers are spiking???

Oh yeah, the governors. Cuomo is not racing to re-open everything whereas Florida's governor did. Cuomo takes the threat of the virus seriously because he follows the science and the data but Florida's governor laughed it off and took the political approach of opening everything up because Trump wanted the economy 100% open. Cuomo didn't open up much of anything and has backed off opening certain things while Florida opened all their bars, restaurants, beaches, stores, etc. to near-full or full capacity.

Yet here you are trying to blame it on protests. Funny how those protests only affect the Republican-led states adversely. Just keep ignoring the facts and blaming the protests. That way we can pretend the "economy over human lives" approach isn't a problem but rather Black Lives Matter is now to blame for the coronavirus.

Pretty ridiculous conclusion to blame it on the protests when that was something all the states experienced while ignoring the real difference between the states' experiences, that being that some opened everything up way too early while others cautiously kept things closed/limited and safe.

What would be the reason for California's uptick?

As I outlined in a prior post, Texas and Florida did have very large protests... Houston, Floyd's home town, had a very large demonstration that had an estimated 60,000 people. Florida had several large multi-day protests in a handful of major cities.

upload_2020-7-5_9-11-52.png


upload_2020-7-5_9-12-16.png


George Floyd protests in Florida - Wikipedia

Jackonville had 1200
Orlando had 3000
Miami-dade county had several ranging from 500-2000

Now, one could say that due to the policies in place, post-protest, that could've been a factor. IE: 5000 people going to protests, then going back to their homes under partial shelter-in-place orders is going to have a different outcome then 5000 people going to protests, then heading out to family gatherings, bars, etc... is probably going to drive very different outcomes. If two different cities had a beer festivals, but one city's major had temporarily restricted car usage, and the other had not, obviously the latter would have more DUI's, but that wouldn't mean that "allowing citizens to drive cars caused this spike in DUIs", obviously all the beer consumption did.


However, either large scale outdoor gatherings are dangerous transmission events, or they're not. If protests didn't drive a spike, and Democratic governors are confident in that (and aren't just saying what they're supposed to say), then one could conclude that there's no reason to keep beaches & parks closed anymore, as the protests would have "proved that it's not really dangerous to congregate in an outdoor environment", correct?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: rjs330
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
What would be the reason for California's uptick?

As I outlined in a prior post, Texas and Florida did have very large protests... Houston, Floyd's home town, had a very large demonstration that had an estimated 60,000 people. Florida had several large multi-day protests in a handful of major cities.

View attachment 280291

View attachment 280292

George Floyd protests in Florida - Wikipedia

Jackonville had 1200
Orlando had 3000
Miami-dade county had several ranging from 500-2000

Now, one could say that due to the policies in place, post-protest, that could've been a factor. IE: 5000 people going to protests, then going back to their homes under partial shelter-in-place orders is going to have a different outcome then 5000 people going to protests, then heading out to family gatherings, bars, etc... is probably going to drive very different outcomes. If two different cities had a beer festivals, but one city's major had temporarily restricted car usage, and the other had not, obviously the latter would have more DUI's, but that wouldn't mean that "allowing citizens to drive cars caused this spike in DUIs", obviously all the beer consumption did.


However, either large scale outdoor gatherings are dangerous transmission events, or they're not. If protests didn't drive a spike, and Democratic governors are confident in that (and aren't just saying what they're supposed to say), then one could conclude that there's no reason to keep beaches & parks closed anymore, as the protests would have "proved that it's not really dangerous to congregate in an outdoor environment", correct?

Protestors have very different patterns of behavior from some idiot who is going to a bar in the middle of a pandemic. Alot of those protestors were wearing masks and many were also distancing themselves during the protests.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Articles in the press and reports here suggest that the shutdown wasn't enforced in part of California. Orange County openly rejected it. If you look at CA data, they did pretty well in the San Francisco area, but poorly in the LA area. So it may be misleading to compare California with the NE, where generally the shutdown was enforced. Or the people are more cooperative.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Articles in the press and reports here suggest that the shutdown wasn't enforced in part of California. Orange County openly rejected it. If you look at CA data, they did pretty well in the San Francisco area, but poorly in the LA area. So it may be misleading to compare California with the NE, where generally the shutdown was enforced. Or the people are more cooperative.

That's a good point. Many parts of California had people openly resisting CDC and Sacramento's directives. Often down to political lines (California is not all Democrat, large parts are not).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I've seen various pictures of beaches this weekend. The ones from nj.com for NJ beaches look a lot less crowded than some other states.

There's one other issue that I suspect, even though almost no one has talked about it. The states that are doing the best now are the ones that were hit hardest early. Presumably that means they have the most people who are immune. Estimates seem to be around 20%. 20% isn't nearly enough to create herd immunity for a disease with an R0 of 2.5 or higher. But when precautions have brought Rt down to around 1, 20% immune can matter. I note that in NJ that things were bad in the N early on. That's the part next to NYC. As time when on, it moved south. At the moment, case numbers are highest in the S. South Jersey county sees highest rate of coronavirus cases for third week in row. See how your county compares. Our policies have been the same state-wide. As far as I know, they are equally enforced.

One problem with this is that there's no one explanation. There's an interaction of State policies, local enforcement, attitudes of the people, population density, previous cases, and specific events.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Protestors have very different patterns of behavior from some idiot who is going to a bar in the middle of a pandemic. Alot of those protestors were wearing masks and many were also distancing themselves during the protests.

Probably depends on the protesters. A multitude of cities (Including NYC) had to implement curfews which would indicate some problematic behavior was taking place.

It's unlikely that democratic mayors like DeBlasio or Frank Jackson (who are very much trying to convey support for the movement) would order curfews to get people off the streets for wearing masks and standing 6 feet apart.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Probably depends on the protesters. A multitude of cities (Including NYC) had to implement curfews which would indicate some problematic behavior was taking place.

It's unlikely that democratic mayors like DeBlasio or Frank Jackson (who are very much trying to convey support for the movement) would order curfews to get people off the streets for wearing masks and standing 6 feet apart.

That's not why curfews were implemented. They were implemented because some people were being disruptive and damaging property, not because of people not socially distancing.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's not why curfews were implemented. They were implemented because some people were being disruptive and damaging property, not because of people not socially distancing.

So would that negate your previous statements about the "pattern of behavior difference between protesters and idiots going to a bar"?

I doubt the curfews would have to be implemented if it were just 4 or 5 people throwing rocks...I'm pretty the police could easily handle that situation. When it starts to be a couple hundred people doing it, that's when it starts to get "out of control".
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
So would that negate your previous statements about the "pattern of behavior difference between protesters and idiots going to a bar"?

Of course not because those aren't the same behaviors and don't present the same risks of spreading COVID-19.

I doubt the curfews would have to be implemented if it were just 4 or 5 people throwing rocks...I'm pretty the police could easily handle that situation. When it starts to be a couple hundred people doing it, that's when it starts to get "out of control".

It only takes a few bad actors to burn down a building, which is what this was really about. Arsonists took advantage of the cover of night to burn down buildings.

Protest is an important part of our civil society in the US, and shouldn't be equated with reckless endangerment of human lives, as is the case in the people that refused to socially distance or wear masks.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: ArmenianJohn
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
So would that negate your previous statements about the "pattern of behavior difference between protesters and idiots going to a bar"?

I doubt the curfews would have to be implemented if it were just 4 or 5 people throwing rocks...I'm pretty the police could easily handle that situation. When it starts to be a couple hundred people doing it, that's when it starts to get "out of control".
In NY, curfews were used because there were criminals following the protesters and looting.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,550
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,242.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What would be the reason for California's uptick?

As I outlined in a prior post, Texas and Florida did have very large protests... Houston, Floyd's home town, had a very large demonstration that had an estimated 60,000 people. Florida had several large multi-day protests in a handful of major cities.

View attachment 280291

View attachment 280292

George Floyd protests in Florida - Wikipedia

Jackonville had 1200
Orlando had 3000
Miami-dade county had several ranging from 500-2000

Now, one could say that due to the policies in place, post-protest, that could've been a factor. IE: 5000 people going to protests, then going back to their homes under partial shelter-in-place orders is going to have a different outcome then 5000 people going to protests, then heading out to family gatherings, bars, etc... is probably going to drive very different outcomes. If two different cities had a beer festivals, but one city's major had temporarily restricted car usage, and the other had not, obviously the latter would have more DUI's, but that wouldn't mean that "allowing citizens to drive cars caused this spike in DUIs", obviously all the beer consumption did.


However, either large scale outdoor gatherings are dangerous transmission events, or they're not. If protests didn't drive a spike, and Democratic governors are confident in that (and aren't just saying what they're supposed to say), then one could conclude that there's no reason to keep beaches & parks closed anymore, as the protests would have "proved that it's not really dangerous to congregate in an outdoor environment", correct?
That's a lot of verbal and logical gymnastics just to shift the blame from the Republican governors to minorities simply because you want it that way.

The protests are a constant with these states; if anything, New York had more people protesting and certainly in tighter confines than any cities in Florida or Texas. Arizona didn't have that many in protests yet is facing the same crisis as Florida and Texas. Whatever influence the protests had in spreading coronavirus it is not different from state to state.

What IS different is the policies put in place by the governors of those states. Cuomo had NY locked down. In particular, it was indoor activity that was most tightly locked down. Outdoor activity was less restricted, but still restricted. Parks and beaches were closed most of the time. When open, crowds were limited at those outdoor venues.

But Texas, Florida, and Arizona (and other red states) had their indoor businesses wide open for business. Governors in those states not only discouraged mask-wearing and social distancing, but in fact they DID NOT PERMIT for any local governments to mandate mask-wearing. Those states championed the White House's message of "it's a hoax, don't do anything about it, just open up the businesses, full speed ahead" and THAT is why you're seeing them spike while NY, NJ, and similar states are progressing with low numbers. California is the one democratic-led state that is having problems and that's due to the huge Republican swaths of population that exist in Orange County and up the Central Valley, who rejected and disobeyed the safety directives (again due to politics).

I get it that you want to blame the minorities and the protesters for everything to protect governors you support, but the facts don't support your desired narrative. The fact remains that good leadership with cautious policies that focused on the data and science in states led by Democratic governors is what's winning the fight against coronavirus in those states while politically-motivated poor leadership and reckless policies are leading to panic in red states with Republican governors.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's a lot of verbal and logical gymnastics just to shift the blame from the Republican governors to minorities simply because you want it that way.

I get it that you want to blame the minorities and the protesters for everything to protect governors you support,

Do you want this to be a serious conversation? Or are we just resorting to baseless accusations at this point?

I'm not a republican (in fact, I side more with democrats on policy than I do with republicans), and I'm not "blaming minorities"

Tossing in the "I get that you just want to blame minorities" is a baseless cheap shot and a classic example of "poisoning the well" and strawmanning.

The protests are a constant with these states; if anything, New York had more people protesting and certainly in tighter confines than any cities in Florida or Texas. Arizona didn't have that many in protests yet is facing the same crisis as Florida and Texas. Whatever influence the protests had in spreading coronavirus it is not different from state to state.

As I've posted a few times...Houston's protest had 60,000 (that's not even counting Dallas and Austin)...NYC had 5,000. Florida had several ranging from 500-3000.

George Floyd protests in Arizona - Wikipedia

Arizona also had a lot of protests, ranging anywhere from hundreds, up to thousands (like the ones in Tuscon, Phoenix, and Tempe).

This narrative that "NY had massive protests and had no issues, and all of these other states like TX, AZ, and FL didn't have nearly as many protesters" is a false one. TX, AZ, and FL all had large protesting events.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,550
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,242.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you want this to be a serious conversation? Or are we just resorting to baseless accusations at this point?

I'm not a republican (in fact, I side more with democrats on policy than I do with republicans), and I'm not "blaming minorities"

Tossing in the "I get that you just want to blame minorities" is a baseless cheap shot and a classic example of "poisoning the well" and strawmanning.
What baseless accusations? You're very clear on wanting to pin everything on the protests and absolve Republican governors of their role in their states having crises at this point. And then you're upset because I'm recognizing that?

From what I've seen from your posts you side mostly with Repubicans on most issues, but on this issue you clearly are defending Republican governors and states and shifting blame to BLM. Not only are you wrong in doing so but you're being biased. You clearly are blaming BLM for the rise in coronavirus numbers in the same states where Republican governors just opened up every bar, restaurant and retail store with reckless abandon.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What baseless accusations? You're very clear on wanting to pin everything on the protests and absolve Republican governors of their role in their states having crises at this point. And then you're upset because I'm recognizing that?

From what I've seen from your posts you side mostly with Repubicans on most issues, but on this issue you clearly are defending Republican governors and states and shifting blame to BLM. Not only are you wrong in doing so but you're being biased. You clearly are blaming BLM for the rise in coronavirus numbers in the same states where Republican governors just opened up every bar, restaurant and retail store with reckless abandon.

Ah yes...let's just take a look at some of my positions...
Health care problems and solutions in politics

Dealing with Climate Change---Not Only Good Ethics, But Good Business

Pelosi Tried To Sneak Taxpayer Funded Abortions Into Coronavirus Relief Bill
(me rebutting republicans who were trying to bash Pelosi)

Chick fil-a has caved to anti-Christian hate groups

Trump wants Bible classes in schools

Alabama pastor holds ‘whites only’ conference


So, I advocate for Single-payer healthcare, womens' right to choose, acknowledging man-made climate change, and saying we need to address it, pro-gay rights, I've bashed Trump numerous times for trying to inject religion into public schools, and advocated for free public college, I've lambasted Roy Moore when that whole thing was going on.

Video Shows Police Officer Firing Stun Gun at Unarmed Man Sitting on Curb

Some Veterans defend Colin...

Before Cleveland Game, Biggest Anthem Protest Yet

In fact, I've even posted several times being critical of police, and have posted several times in defense of Colin Kaepernick. You'll even find several posts of me supporting the idea of removing Confederate iconography from parks and state houses.

So because I disagree with you on this one, your conclusion is that I "side mostly with republicans on most issues"? You'd have to go quite a ways back in the CF history to find a period in time when I "sided mostly with republicans"...as it was probably close to a decade ago when I (overall) leaned right-of-center.


As many other posters can make reference to, I've blamed a combination of issues in this thread and in others. Even earlier in this thread, I mentioned that "large protests followed by everyone going back home to strict social distancing measures" is likely to produce less spread than "large protests followed by everyone going back to life in states that are largely reopened".

However, if we're talking about the catalyst of the the uptick, a state that's been reopened for almost over a month, that was still seeing a decline in cases, then 5-6 days after the protests, the uptick starts...

So what's to blame in that scenario?

Is the suggestion that we need tight lockdowns to still be in place so that if a protest occurs, post-protest transmission rates won't spike? Or is the suggestion that we should be sticking with the guidelines that we should be avoiding any large public gatherings altogether?

Can't cherry pick here...if thousands of people getting together outdoors for a protest isn't a uptick catalyst, then we'd have no reason to believe go to a beach would produce different results, as if outdoor transmission is still a major concern, I don't think Covid particularly cares why people are outside and standing close to one another.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,257
5,975
64
✟333,152.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Considering how Washington handled smallpox in the troops, his opinion was known.

No I think it is a bad example by the President, and the governor, and Republicans in the state seem to follow suit. Have a few relatives retired there who think the whole pandemic is fake. They are also very vulnerable.

The governor's are not a bunch of mind numbed robots. They don't March to the whims or thoughts of the president. They are elected by the people of their state. They are fully capable of making their own decisions. They are informed and decided to do what they did. This goes for all the governors no matter who is president. The Democrats are no different. The Democratic governor's were not robots when Obama was president. They didn't suddenly lose their minds or just follow whatever the president expressed. They had their own minds and their own thoughts and each governed their states as they saw fit. They still do.

There is not ONE governor that is not aware of masks, social distancing, washing your hands, staying home or whatever. They all know. And they all know the risks of phasing in a re-opening of the economy. They don't need Trump.to tell them anything.

All of Trump's earlier plan, which included social distancing and other measures, was not a mandate. Governor's could still choose to do what they wanted. Some chose to do more, some chose to do less.

Washington was not a dictator either. It was the local mayor that made the decisions. Washington stayed within his lane. Trump did too.

I know many folks so desperately want a president that is a dictator and tosses out madates all over the place. And they want an all powerful federal government. Unless of course it means you can't have a sanctuary city. Well that's totally different. Be careful what you wish for. You may just get it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmenianJohn

Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist
Jan 30, 2013
8,962
5,550
New Jersey (NYC Metro)
✟205,242.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Ah yes...let's just take a look at some of my positions...
Health care problems and solutions in politics

Dealing with Climate Change---Not Only Good Ethics, But Good Business

Pelosi Tried To Sneak Taxpayer Funded Abortions Into Coronavirus Relief Bill
(me rebutting republicans who were trying to bash Pelosi)

Chick fil-a has caved to anti-Christian hate groups

Trump wants Bible classes in schools

Alabama pastor holds ‘whites only’ conference


So, I advocate for Single-payer healthcare, womens' right to choose, acknowledging man-made climate change, and saying we need to address it, pro-gay rights, I've bashed Trump numerous times for trying to inject religion into public schools, and advocated for free public college, I've lambasted Roy Moore when that whole thing was going on.

Video Shows Police Officer Firing Stun Gun at Unarmed Man Sitting on Curb

Some Veterans defend Colin...

Before Cleveland Game, Biggest Anthem Protest Yet

In fact, I've even posted several times being critical of police, and have posted several times in defense of Colin Kaepernick. You'll even find several posts of me supporting the idea of removing Confederate iconography from parks and state houses.
You're a centrist Democrat and it's not unusual for centrist Democrats to flip to conservative and Republican sides on certain issues, which is what you're doing on this issue. A centrist Democrat is practically a Republican. In fact some liberal Republicans are more liberal than most centrist Democrats.

So because I disagree with you on this one, your conclusion is that I "side mostly with republicans on most issues"? You'd have to go quite a ways back in the CF history to find a period in time when I "sided mostly with republicans"...as it was probably close to a decade ago when I (overall) leaned right-of-center.
I think you still lean right of center. It's not "because" I disagree with you that I think so but rather that that is what I see from you. You espouse the red scare conspiracy, you believe that BLM is the trojan horse for the commies to take over America, and your opposition to BLM and the protesters is well documented in your posts. You try t present a different way but the result is still a strong opposition to the protests and you are trying to pin them as the reason for the failures of Republican governors.

As many other posters can make reference to, I've blamed a combination of issues in this thread and in others. Even earlier in this thread, I mentioned that "large protests followed by everyone going back home to strict social distancing measures" is likely to produce less spread than "large protests followed by everyone going back to life in states that are largely reopened".

However, if we're talking about the catalyst of the the uptick, a state that's been reopened for almost over a month, that was still seeing a decline in cases, then 5-6 days after the protests, the uptick starts...

So what's to blame in that scenario?
What uptick in NY or NJ or CT??? You again try to pin the blame the protests as catalysts yet somehow they weren't catalysts in NY or NJ or CT or MI etc... The ral catalysts were Republican governors encouraging their people to not practice safety, allowing all indoor businesses to open with few to no restrictions, and even going so far as to PROHIBIT mayors from implementing mask-wearing in their cities. Just ask the mayor of Phoenix. I even created a thread on it which you are unsurprisingly not involved in because it destroys the credibility of these Republican governors.

Is the suggestion that we need tight lockdowns to still be in place so that if a protest occurs, post-protest transmission rates won't spike? Or is the suggestion that we should be sticking with the guidelines that we should be avoiding any large public gatherings altogether?
I don't know whose "suggestion" you're referring to. The facts are unchanged. Large gatherings increase risk. No social distancing increases the risk. No mask wearing increases the risk further. When you bring all of that indoors, the risk increases several times over. This is what we know about the risks of coronavirus spread.

Now compare the states, all of which had protests (large outdoor gatherings with some social distancing and lots of mask-wearing) in common. If that's the catalyst then all the states should be seeing the same uptick rates. They are not.

What other differences are there that could be causing it then? Republican governors allowing indoor, barely restricted activity is the difference from Democratic governors who kept indoor activity highly restricted and mostly closed. There's your difference. Why did they do things so differently from each other? Well, Democratic governors point to the science and data as their source for guidance and behavior while Republican governors pointed to the White House as their source for guidance.

It's that simple. You just keep steering it back to blaming BLM because you have a cold war era mentality about communism which you have expressed so you pin the blame on them. And that's fine if that's what you believe but I can't accept your backpedaling on the issue now and claiming that's not the case.

Can't cherry pick here...if thousands of people getting together outdoors for a protest isn't a uptick catalyst, then we'd have no reason to believe go to a beach would produce different results, as if outdoor transmission is still a major concern, I don't think Covid particularly cares why people are outside and standing close to one another.
Yet you're cherry picking. I'm the one who's not cherry picking. It's not the outdoor gatherings that are the main culprit for the uptick in numbers. It's the unrestricted indoor gatherings. The protests were mostly outdoors and mask-wearing was widely used in the protests. No doubt there was a spread of virus due to the protests, but all states had the same exposure from the protests.

The difference is in how politically motivated Republican governors removed restrictions and prohibited restrictions on indoor businesses all to serve the economy, all at the guidance of the White House, all for the money, all while regarding the virus as a fake problem. Now that they see it's not fake they are panicking and backpedaling. And you're siding with them by shifting the blame to BLM protesters. And that's fine, but when I argue against your ideas you get upset with me and claim that you're not actually taking the stance which you clearly ARE taking.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
22,257
5,975
64
✟333,152.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Protestors have very different patterns of behavior from some idiot who is going to a bar in the middle of a pandemic. Alot of those protestors were wearing masks and many were also distancing themselves during the protests.

Unfortunately photographs and videos out to bed the idea that protestors were social distancing.

Google Image Result for https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/nexus/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/0606-cd-standalone1-e1591476214134.jpg

Google Image Result for https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/NINTCHDBPICT000586317701-e1591018703924.jpg

Google Image Result for https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/gettyimages-1217459383.jpg

Google Image Result for https://cmsimages.tribuneindia.com/gallary_content/2020/6/2020_6$largeimg_7693795.JPG

And while a lot of them were wearing masks, certainly a great number of them weren't.

So while I whole heatedly agree with you on the bar situation, there is also plenty of reasons to point fingers at the protestors as well.

Quite frankly I think this blame game is gone on long enough. COVID is an illness that could not be stopped completely without shutting everything down for a year or more. Which in the entire scheme of things would have been the best thing to do if ALL you were trying to do was stop it.

But we all have a life to live, bills to pay and food, services and goods that have to be purchased. So with that in mind a shut down for a year or more would have been impossible.

COVID is here and we just have to deal with it as best we can. Protests will have caused a spread, opening the economy will cause a spread, Everything we do will cause a spread if that means leaving my our homes.

I'm for wearing masks, social distancing and washing your hands. Then let's make sure we have what we need to help those that do get it.

But if we are going to place blame there is enough to go around to everyone.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You're a centrist Democrat and it's not unusual for centrist Democrats to flip to conservative and Republican sides on certain issues, which is what you're doing on this issue. A centrist Democrat is practically a Republican. In fact some liberal Republicans are more liberal than most centrist Democrats.

Sounds like you're using the same mentality that many republicans use, which is "if you don't conform to our position 100%, then you're "not a real <insert party here>". I've already enumerated the positions that show that I'd easily be in alignment with democrats more than republicans.

"Left of center on everything except 1 or 2 issues" doesn't equate to "practically a republican" Your statement was that I side with republicans on most things...I sufficiently showed a posting history showing that it's not true, and now the goalposts have been moved.

I think you still lean right of center. It's not "because" I disagree with you that I think so but rather that that is what I see from you. You espouse the red scare conspiracy, you believe that BLM is the trojan horse for the commies to take over America, and your opposition to BLM and the protesters is well documented in your posts.

It's not a "red scare" conspiracy. A conspiracy would be an unfounded theory that's not based on any sort of facts or real evidence. There's video footage of interviews with BLM founders openly acknowledging that they're Marxists, and people who fly the Antifa flag openly acknowledge that they want to fight against capitalism. How is that a conspiracy to point that out?

The flag they're flying is the flag of the 1930's German Communism movement...which was one that targeted social democrats as much (if not more) than they targeted Nazis.

Meaning, the people who flew that flag would've called Bernie Sanders a "social fascist".

"focused largely on attacking their main adversary, the centre-left Social Democratic Party of Germany, whom they referred to as social fascists"

They called social democrats "social fascists", which in communist theory they described as:
Social fascism was a theory supported by the Communist International (Comintern) and affiliated communist parties in the early 1930s that held that social democracy was a variant of fascism because it stood in the way of a dictatorship of the proletariat

I went into it, in detail, in this thread:
Hawk Newsome BLM "If this country doesn't give us what we want we will burn down the system.."

If they don't want to be considered communist, perhaps they should swap out their symbolism and rhetoric.

It's that simple. You just keep steering it back to blaming BLM because you have a cold war era mentality about communism which you have expressed so you pin the blame on them. And that's fine if that's what you believe but I can't accept your backpedaling on the issue now and claiming that's not the case.

What is a "cold war era mentality" about communism? You mean that communism is bad? Pretty sure that mentality isn't confined to the cold war era... Many people, left and right, oppose it for good reason.

Their economic leanings have nothing to do with why I opposed their mass protests during a pandemic. BLM/Antifa could be self-identified as a laissez faire capitalist group and I would've opposed it.


You started off with saying "you just want to blame minorities"...I showed that wasn't true
You then shifted it to "well, you side with republicans on most things"...I showed that wasn't true
Now it's "you just want to blame BLM because you have a "red scare conspiracy theory""

So you've gone with "Racist"/"Republican"/"Conspiracy Theorist"...any other false attacks you want to toss in the mix?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Calm the rhetoric down. Most people involved in BLM are not communists, they are just tired of American society giving black people a raw deal.

Even being a Marxist shouldn't necessarily qualify a person as being some kind of extremist (it's not in most of the world outside the US). One of my favorite economists, Richard Wolfe, calls himself "Marxian" in his outlook. Furthering a "red scare" mentality is indeed what you seem focused on. Certain kinds of economic theories are permitted, others make you an "extremist".
 
  • Agree
Reactions: lasthero
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,640
14,524
Here
✟1,196,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Calm the rhetoric down. Most people involved in BLM are not communists, they are just tired of American society giving black people a raw deal.

Even being a Marxist shouldn't disqualify a person. One of my favorite economists, Richard Wolfe, calls himself "Marxian" in his outlook. Furthering a "red scare" mentality is indeed what you seem focused on. Certain kinds of economic theories are permitted, others make you an "extremist".

I didn't say it should disqualify anyone...but you can't have one group founded by 2 openly avowed Marxists, and another 'movement' (like Antifa) that flies the flag of the 1930's German communist movement (and even advocated for those ideas), and then have them get bent out of shape when that's pointed out.

...It's used to play a word game with their detractors. If you oppose "Antifa" for any of their tactics, the rebuttal is always "Oh, so you're pro-fascism then?".

If I started a movement called "People against healthcare exploitation", in which, the stated goal in the name was making healthcare affordable, but our other goals were promoting anti-vaxxer theories and destroying vaccine research labs...if people, rightfully, opposed that movement, it'd be disingenuous to say "Oh, so since you're against preventing healthcare exploitation, that must mean you're in favor of exploiting sick people!"


I've noted this before, but perhaps it's time for there to be a parallel movement that seeks to achieve the same main goal, but doesn't come with all of the baggage.

I've likened it to the difference between PETA and the ASPCA. Both acronyms, expanded, convey a similar message of "don't be cruel to animals", yet the two organizations are quite different in their tactics and side-agendas.

Perhaps it's time for those two ideas/movements to have an "ASPCA" to BLM's/Antifa's "PETA".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0