Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Der Alte said:

One unknown guy supposedly said one thing, somewhere, another unknown guy supposedly said another thing, somewhere. And one guy used the word "ateleutetos" which supposedly proves that "aionios" does not mean "eternal." It proves just the opposite.

"The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.”
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He is clearly referring to Matthew 25:46 . What he has proved is "aionios" means the same thing as "ateleutetos."

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FineLinen said:

You surely jest. I absolutely expect nada from you. I do not blame you for not wanting to post the qualifications for "everlasting punishment".

Aionios kolasis is one thing, Aidios punishment another. When aidios is added to punishment, we have a serious problem.

Justinian, described as a “half-heathen”, made an ET declaration, but didn’t just use kolasis (punishment) aionian, but qualified it with the word ‘ateleutetos’ - which means endless.

He said “The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.”

If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Thereby admitting that kolasis aionian was NOT considered ‘eternal’ at the time.

However, as his (Julian) contemporary, Olympiodorus wrote,

“Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the Divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon.” It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner’s improvement."

Two Rules

Rule #1: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, never at any time, it is oudepote.

Rule #2: When in doubt refer to rule #1.

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ClementofA said:

"It is easy to see"...IOW it's "simple". Well, i'd prescribe the whole book of Proverbs.

Prov.1:22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?

Prov.1:5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,

and let the discerning get guidance—

6 for understanding proverbs and parables,

the sayings and riddles of the wise. b

See the cross references here:

Proverbs 1:22 "How long, O simple ones, will you love your simple ways? How long will scoffers delight in their scorn and fools hate knowledge?



You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?



Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.



Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?
Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

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ClementofA said:

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Butch5 said:

I've already explained that these reasons are based on false premises.

1.The story is never called a parable by who?

2. Just because it would be the only one with a named person doesn't mean it't not a parable. That reasoning is a non sequitur. Who says it's not a parable just because a name is used?

3. Who says the definition of what you call a parable is actually what a parable is?

There's no basis for your statements. Thus they aren't evidence.

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Butch5 said:

Actually, I'm not a universality. As I said, aion doesn't mean eternal. What you call the preponderance of the evidence is just a lot of mistranslation. If you study translation you'll find that most translators are afraid to stray from what is orthodox. Thus, the all translate petty much the same way.

Do I have proof that aion doesn't mean eternal, sure. In all of these passage the word "world" is the word aion. You'll notice that Jesus and the apostles both spoke of the end of the aion. It ends. Eternity doesn't end.
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matt. 13:47-50 KJV)

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt. 28:20 KJV)

In this passage Jesus speaks of this aion and one to come. Is there this eternity and one to come? How can there be one to come if this one never ends?

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 KJV)

Even Paul speaks of the end of the aion.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)

You see the problem is that translators filter their translation through what they believe, thus their bias enters the translation. It's something that can't really be avoided. However, we should always check to make sure what they say is correct.

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ClementofA said:

Ever heard of "self taught geniuses"?

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-a-self-taught-genius



A proper translation is:

John 10:28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand."

That verse speaks of three things:

1. Eonian life. That is life during the coming eon, the millenium.

2. Believers won't be "perishing for the eon". That is the eon of the millenium.

3. No one can - snatch - a believer from Christ hand. But that doesn't rule out the believer himself jumping out of His hand. In which case they would cease to believe & 1 & 2 would no longer apply to them.

OTOH if they believe until the Lord's coming, then they will get immortality, never die, & never leave the heavenly city, etc, as many scriptures show.

OTOH those who are remaining wicked will in the coming eon be perishing, i.e. be lost, until they are finally saved.



A better translation is:

John 10:27 My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me." 28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." 29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand. (CLV)

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

Believers get eonian life in the eon to come (Lk.18:30; Mk.10:30) while the unrighteous get punishing (Mt.25:46).

Mt.25:46 contrasts eonian destinies. Believers also become immortal at Christ's return. That speaks of an endless life.

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Der Alte said:

If you could parse a Greek verb or know the difference between an aorist and an apple your unsupported opinion about Greek grammar might have some value as it is your objections are meaningless. You have no basis for arguing anything about the meaning of Greek words or Greek grammar. Now if you were to quote from a peer reviewed Greek grammar written by an accomplished Greek scholar we might have some reason for discussion.

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Der Alte said:

I have disproved this once but you keep repeating it as if repetition will somehow make it true. Here are the facts about "aionios" and "aion" in the NT.
Aionios occurs 70 times in the NT.
Jesus used “aionios” 28 times. He never used it to refer to anything mundane which is not or cannot be “eternal.”
Paul used “aionios” 21 times. It is translated “world” 3 times.
The other letters “aionios” occurs 10 times, always translated “eternal.”
“Aionios” occurs 1 time in Rev. “eternal”
The word “aion” occurs 102 times in the NT. It is translated “world” 40 times. 61% of the time it means “eternity.”

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Major1 said:

Are you trying, in your own kind of goofy way to say that John 14:6 is a false teaching when God said..
"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

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ClementofA said:

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ClementofA said:

Since the text was almost entirely in English, and your remark based on the same, your comments here seem entirely irrelevant & evasive to my point.

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Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

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FineLinen said:

In my own goofy way I believe the Saviour of all mankind is not a potential Saviour, He IS the ONLY Saviour.

In my own goofy way I believe, He the Saviour of the ta pavnte, is completely successful in all He does.

In my own goofy way I believe He is the ONLY Way!

In my own goofy way I know He loses nothing.

In my own goofy way I believe He will draw all mankind to Himself, the good, bad and ugly!

In my own goofy way I believe the Son of Abba, the Lord Isous, succeeds where all others fail.

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Der Alte said:

Unlike some folks who unquestioningly follow their UR gurus I have a brain and I do a word search on the Greek word then see how it is translated in the NT. My Bible program shows the Strong's numbers by each word. "Aion" is G165 and "aionios" is G166. Now try to prove me wrong.

I back up what I say. You have made this patently false claim several times now back it up. Out of the 70 times "aionos" occurs in the NT show me 1 dozen times where it has a finite duration. Since I have searched more than once I know the answer and it ain't even 1 dozen.
This has now gone beyond a simple mistake or misunderstanding. It is now a deliberate misrepresentation.
Put me in my place show me that I am wrong.

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Major1 said:

My dear brother. YOU are correct and our friend as you have seen, in fact all of the Universalist believers MUST manipulate the Scriptures to make them fit what they want to believe.
I say to them what Paul said in Galatians 1:8.....
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"
They are preaching ANOTHER Gospel.

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Major1 said:

That is a lot of GOOFY stuff.

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Der Alte said:

Unlike some folks who unquestioningly follow their UR gurus I have a brain and I do a word search on the Greek word then see how it is translated in the NT. My Bible program shows the Strong's numbers by each word. "Aion" is G165 and "aionios" is G166. Now try to prove me wrong.

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Der Alte said:

I back up what I say. You have made this patently false claim several times now back it up.

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Major1 said:

The Bible does not agree with you as we see in Matthew 7:21-23...…..
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heave. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and do many might works in Your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”

So again we see that we can either believe YOU or believe the Word of God.

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Der Alte said:

Where does this say "Jesus will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death?

Are those who openly reject(ed) Jesus still considered His people?
Luke 19:26-27
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

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Der Alte said:

Then of course we have.

Matthew 7:21-22
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

You would have us believe that verse 21 does not say
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;"
But instead means,
"everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven righteous and unrighteous alike."

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Der Alte said:

.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

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Der Alter said:

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

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ClementofA said:

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ClementofA said:

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ClementofA said:

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Der Alte said:

This is a patently false statement.

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Der Alte said:

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

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ClementofA said:

Where did that say anyone will NEVER be saved, but sadisticlly tortured throughout endless eons?

It's incredibly - lame - for a Jesus you think will monstrously fry people for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

If that were His belief, why is it entirely absent from Scripture? Why is Scripture instead - full - of lame warnings like the above, ALL of which are perfectly harmonious with the many passages that support universalism. By quoting Lk.19:26-27 you only shoot your own dogma in the foot...yet again.
Got anymore - lame - ones you want to post - to add to the lists of those you already have?


Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?




Did you miss verse 22 of the context which is speaking of what will happen on a certain "day", not eternal destinies? Nothing there states they cannot be saved at some point in the future beyond that "day".

By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Remember this:






It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
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FineLinen said:

I love the "goofy stuff" our Abba discloses to us out of Himself!

I Believe

I believe in “the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began.” -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the “good tidings of great joy will be to all people.” -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.” -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ “heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.” -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that “no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him.” -John 6:44

I believe “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him.” -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father “has given all things into Jesus’ hands.” -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ “was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world.” -John 1:9

I believe that “just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men.” -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin “brought condemnation for all mankind.” -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings “right relationship with God, and new life for everyone.” -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

The identical many made sinners = the many made righteous.

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