Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[ClementofA]

More irrelevant out-of-context proof texts and no you have not refuted anything.

Simply saying that does not even address let alone refute my refutations of your post.

Unsupported opinions are not evidence.

It's your proofs that have been refuted in my posts where the evidence is.

Quoting biased UR "scholars" giving their unsupported opinions are not evidence.

What does this have to do with anything in my posts refuting you. Did you even read them. Usually not. You usually just keep posting the same errors repeatedly which i repeatedly refute.

Quoting different versions, translations etc. are not evidence.

Irrelevant. See above.

Jeremiah 8:8-13
8 "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace.
12 Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.
13 "'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'"​

This was about 700 BC during the Babylonian captivity and God dealt with the "lying pens" of the deceitful scribes then and there.

Obviously.

Do you actually think that God would allow His word to be "falsely handled" for 2700 years without making corrections?

Obviously someone is in error considering the opposing translations we have today. There have been significant differences between translations throughout history.

You haven't read your Bible.

Isaiah 55:8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.​

That is how one refutes false teaching.

What did you refute? Nothing. And where does Isa.55:8-11 say anything about Scripture. God's word created the universe, but that word was not scripture. Scripture never created anything.

 

[Major1]

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.






Saved from what? Annihilation? Endless tortures? A trip to "hell" until they repent & are justified in Christ.

A better translation is:

2 Thess.2:10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, 11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, 12that they may be judged — all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness. (YLT)

Notice the tenses used..."perishing...being saved". At that moment they were not "being saved". So it doesn't rule out them being saved later.

Perishing is the same word used of the "lost" prodigal son who was saved. So that a person perishes does not mean they are lost forever or cannot be saved later.

The passage refers to the future when Christ returns. The lost will not be "being saved"...at that time. No reference is made in 2 Thess 2 to how long they will be punished, if such is corrective or purely sadistic, or final destiny.

So 2 Thess.2:10 fails as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. What you need to disprove universalism is a verse saying anyone will "never be saved" or suffer "endless punishment", etc. Since such does not exist, there is no Scriptural refutation of universalism.

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

None of the verses that anyone has posted refute universalism. They have all been addressed.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.



*****************************************************


I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

ANOTHER long convoluted post of Universalists propaganda.

If you want to rethink it and shorten it, I will read it but I am not spending anymore time on such long productions.

 

[Major1]

It's logical, but perhaps you have no training in the subject. As I said:

Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted



My argument was clearly stated as follows. What didn't you understand, if you even read it:



Whenever you claim something as a proven definition, like aionion is defined as "eternal" in verse X because of reason Y & i show how Y is not necessarily true, that refutes your argument as a proof by reducing it to merely one of a number of different theories re the meaning of aionion in the given context. So all you are left with is a theory, not a proof. The argument as a proof was refuted.

For example:



That proof fails as a proof. IOW your proof is refuted as a proof. As shown by the following facts.

It says "all generations" OF the "age of the ages". Not "age of the ages" is equal in duration to the duration of "all generations" of the future.

The Greek (see literal versions below) says the "all generations" are OF the "age of the ages". Not "all generations" of all time & eternity. So the "generations" are directly related to the "age of the ages". If the "age is limited then the "all generations" are referring to "all generations" within that finite "age".

The "all generations" is limited to the "age of the ages". If that "age" is finite, then the "all generations" are restricted to the period within that finite age & are not necessarily eternal. Therefore your argument fails to prove what you claim it does.

If that "age" refers to a finite period such as a future age or millennium & ending by the time the new heavens & earth are created, then it is finite. The apostle Paul spoke of multiple future ages (Eph.2:7) as do many other passages (e.g. Rev.22:5). So there is no need to assume the "age" referred to in Eph.3:21 is endless. Therefore, once again, your conclusion "doesn't fly" & "holds no water". IOW it fails as a proven conclusion. It is refuted as a proof, being reduced to no more than a mere theory amongst at least one other theory i've stated above.

Several more accurate, honest & literal translations read:

Young's Literal Translation
to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Darby Bible Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Ephesians 3:21 Interlinear: to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

 

[Major1]

The "clear teaching" of "everlasting punishment" has five (5) qualifications for it. Can you disclose for us peeps what they are?

You will also find, (perhaps when the cows come home), that aionios zoe and aionios kolasis are not time words in themselves.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact.

The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect. -Dr. Marvin Vincent-

Do you actually think I am going to spend my time doing for YOU what YOU can do for yourself?????

But a quick thought is that those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ qualify for hell.

 

[ClementofA]

What utter, complete rubbish! Another logical fallacy argument from silence "what Paul didn't say." Any/every false heterodox religious group in the world does this same thing. A piece of a verse here and and piece of a verse there they can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. White isn't really white it is black. Up is not really up it is down etc. Nothing means what it says it is all figurative.

You go on that pointless rant after i said Paul didn't say what you said, etc, namely:

"Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!"

Now apply your own comments above to that remark of yours for which you provided no support for & just dreamt up out of lala land. What book, chapter and verse is that from, Der Alte's book of imaginations chapter 66, verse 66?

.....Please explain to me how the Corinthians, who first heard/read the Corinthian letters would have understood them? Would they have understood the distorted nonsense you wrote or would they have understood it exactly as it is written?

They should have read the immediate context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

.....I don't see anywhere Paul, or any other NT writer, furnished their intended audiences with a set of instructions how to correctly interpret all the supposed figurative language hidden in the epistles. It is not likely that any average believer had a copy of any NT letter or book. They certainly didn't have some kind of electronic gadget where they could instantly call up any verse(s) they wanted to to "help" them "correctly" understand the Corinthian letters or any other book. So they could not read all the supposed hidden references such as Jn 1:9 etc.

Compare

Jn.1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

to the following scriptures

Rom.1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Rom.2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. 11 For God does not show favoritism.12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16 This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Luke 24:47
and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

Acts 17:23
For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription: To an unknown God. Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.

Acts 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Acts 10:35
but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.

Matthew 25:36
I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.'

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

etc

 

[ClementofA]

Despite the efforts of men to override the clear teaching of the Bible, the Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

"It is easy to see"...IOW it's "simple". Well, i'd prescribe the whole book of Proverbs.

Prov.1:22 "How long will you who are simple love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?

Prov.1:5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,

and let the discerning get guidance—

6 for understanding proverbs and parables,

the sayings and riddles of the wise. b

See the cross references here:

Proverbs 1:22 "How long, O simple ones, will you love your simple ways? How long will scoffers delight in their scorn and fools hate knowledge?

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?
Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?
Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

 

[Butch5]

I explain it by a long time of Bible study. AND, it is not my interpretation but instead it is simply my understanding of what is actually said "Contextually".

YOU or anyone else do not have to accept my understanding any more than I have to accept yours. However, I can supply many reasons why I believe as I do. Can you do that my brother???????

1.
The story is never called a parable. The other stories of Jesus’ are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed; the prosperous farmer; the barren fig tree; and the wedding feast. They ALL begin with the phrase...….
"Jesus (He) spake by a parable".

2.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

3.
This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

I've already explained that these reasons are based on false premises.

1.The story is never called a parable by who?

2. Just because it would be the only one with a named person doesn't mean it't not a parable. That reasoning is a non sequitur. Who says it's not a parable just because a name is used?

3. Who says the definition of what you call a parable is actually what a parable is?

There's no basis for your statements. Thus they aren't evidence.

 

[Butch5]

In the over 50 translations of the Bible found all over the world, "Ages of the Ages" is found in only TWO.

How do YOU explain such a preponderance of evidence?

YOU as a Universalist believer have believe what others have told you without YOU doinf the Bible study to show yourself approved, a workman of God. YOU argue that the Greek word that is translated into eternal is aionion.

The Greek grammar demands that CONTEXT determines the actual meaning of the word.

YOU argue and believe that age implies that it is a period of time that comes to and end. However, to really examine if the universalists interpretation of age carries weight, we ought to be consistent with their application and meaning of the word "age." Therefore if we apply YOUR argument consistently and CONTEXTUALLY we see the real answer...….

Greek word "aion" used of hell

1. Matthew 25:46.....
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2. 2 Thessalonians 1:9...…..
"these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."

3. Matthew 25:41 ……..
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

4. Jude 13 …….
"for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever".

But as it is with everything in life, What you believe is completely up to you my brother.

Actually, I'm not a universality. As I said, aion doesn't mean eternal. What you call the preponderance of the evidence is just a lot of mistranslation. If you study translation you'll find that most translators are afraid to stray from what is orthodox. Thus, the all translate petty much the same way.

Do I have proof that aion doesn't mean eternal, sure. In all of these passage the word "world" is the word aion. You'll notice that Jesus and the apostles both spoke of the end of the aion. It ends. Eternity doesn't end.
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matt. 13:47-50 KJV)

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt. 28:20 KJV)

In this passage Jesus speaks of this aion and one to come. Is there this eternity and one to come? How can there be one to come if this one never ends?

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 KJV)

Even Paul speaks of the end of the aion.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)

You see the problem is that translators filter their translation through what they believe, thus their bias enters the translation. It's something that can't really be avoided. However, we should always check to make sure what they say is correct.

 

[ClementofA]

Actually, I'm not a universality. As I said, aion doesn't mean eternal. What you call the preponderance of the evidence is just a lot of mistranslation. If you study translation you'll find that most translators are afraid to stray from what is orthodox. Thus, the all translate petty much the same way.

Do I have proof that aion doesn't mean eternal, sure. In all of these passage the word "world" is the word aion. You'll notice that Jesus and the apostles both spoke of the end of the aion. It ends. Eternity doesn't end.
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matt. 13:47-50 KJV)

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt. 28:20 KJV)

In this passage Jesus speaks of this aion and one to come. Is there this eternity and one to come? How can there be one to come if this one never ends?

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 KJV)

Even Paul speaks of the end of the aion.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)

You see the problem is that translators filter their translation through what they believe, thus their bias enters the translation. It's something that can't really be avoided. However, we should always check to make sure what they say is correct.

Most of the verses he posted have a form of aionion rather than a form of aion. Including Mt.25:41,46; 2 Thess.1:9.

Do you believe aionion never means "eternal"?

 

[Der Alte]

Actually, I'm not a universality. As I said, aion doesn't mean eternal. What you call the preponderance of the evidence is just a lot of mistranslation. If you study translation you'll find that most translators are afraid to stray from what is orthodox. Thus, the all translate petty much the same way.
Do I have proof that aion doesn't mean eternal, sure. In all of these passage the word "world" is the word aion. You'll notice that Jesus and the apostles both spoke of the end of the aion. It ends. Eternity doesn't end.
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 KJV)
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Matt. 13:47-50 KJV)
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matt. 24:3 KJV)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen (Matt. 28:20 KJV)
In this passage Jesus speaks of this aion and one to come. Is there this eternity and one to come? How can there be one to come if this one never ends?
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:32 KJV)
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 KJV)
Even Paul speaks of the end of the aion.
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb. 9:26 KJV)
You see the problem is that translators filter their translation through what they believe, thus their bias enters the translation. It's something that can't really be avoided. However, we should always check to make sure what they say is correct.

The same thing can be said about people who insist that "aion" never means "eternity" and "aionios" never means "eternal" they are just translating the words to line up with their assumptions/presuppositions.
I just did a little study yesterday on "aion" and "aionios" here is what I found.
.....Paul used the word "aionios" 21 times, it is translated "world" only 3 times.
Jesus used the word "aionios" 28 times. Jesus never used "aionios" to refer to anything mundane which is not or cannot be "eternal."
In the other letters "aionios" occurs 10 times always translated "eternal."
"Aionios" occurs only once in Rev. it is translated "eternal."
"Aion" occurs 102 times in the NT it is translated "world" 40 times. It is translated "eternity" 61% of the time.
So whose translation is wrong?
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aioniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aioniou],” in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the 22 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
= = = = = = = = = =

…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal” or “aion/”eternity.
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, which is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

ou mé signifies in nowise, by no means, never, see note below. In this verse Jesus pairs both “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” And “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In these two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” Aionios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."​

● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

​

 

[FineLinen]

Do you actually think I am going to spend my time doing for YOU what YOU can do for yourself?????

You surely jest. I absolutely expect nada from you. I do not blame you for not wanting to post the qualifications for "everlasting punishment".

Aionios kolasis is one thing, Aidios punishment another. When aidios is added to punishment, we have a serious problem.

Justinian, described as a “half-heathen”, made an ET declaration, but didn’t just use kolasis (punishment) aionian, but qualified it with the word ‘ateleutetos’ - which means endless.

He said “The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.”

If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Thereby admitting that kolasis aionian was NOT considered ‘eternal’ at the time.

However, as his (Julian) contemporary, Olympiodorus wrote,

“Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the Divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon.” It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner’s improvement."

Two Rules

Rule #1: The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, never at any time, it is oudepote.

Rule #2: When in doubt refer to rule #1.

 

[Butch5]

Most of the verses he posted have a form of aionion rather than a form of aion. Including Mt.25:41,46; 2 Thess.1:9.

Do you believe aionion never means "eternal"?

I believe it never means eternal. When I see the concept of eternity expressed in Scripture it's in the form a phrase. In Isaiah we see,

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa. 9:7 KJV)

Here Isaiah expresses eternity as, "there shall be no end". When Jesus speaks of eternal life He says, "they shall never perish".

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Jn. 10:28 KJV)

Here He says,

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Lk. 20:35-36 KJV)

These phrases describe the concept of eternity.

 

[ClementofA]

I believe it never means eternal. When I see the concept of eternity expressed in Scripture it's in the form a phrase. In Isaiah we see,

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa. 9:7 KJV)

Here Isaiah expresses eternity as, "there shall be no end". When Jesus speaks of eternal life He says, "they shall never perish".

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Jn. 10:28 KJV)

Here He says,

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Lk. 20:35-36 KJV)

These phrases describe the concept of eternity.

Okay, but the word "eternal" in your KJV translation of John 10:28 is aionion. So if aionion never means "eternal" then KJV got it wrong, eh?

What does aionion punishment (Mt.25:46) mean to you?

 

[Butch5]

Okay, but the word "eternal" in your KJV translation of John 10:28 is aionion. So if aionion never means "eternal" then KJV got it wrong, eh?

What does aionion punishment (Mt.25:46) mean to you?

The KJV has aionios. It's the adjective form of aion. Here is how Young's Literal translation has it.

and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; (Jn. 10:28 YLT)

It means punishment for an age.

 

[ClementofA]

The KJV has aionios. It's the adjective form of aion. Here is how Young's Literal translation has it.

and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; (Jn. 10:28 YLT)

It means punishment for an age.

So IYV the wicked are punished for an age & then annihilated?

 

[Der Alte]

I believe it never means eternal. When I see the concept of eternity expressed in Scripture it's in the form a phrase. In Isaiah we see,
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa. 9:7 KJV)
Here Isaiah expresses eternity as, "there shall be no end". When Jesus speaks of eternal life He says, "they shall never perish".
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Jn. 10:28 KJV)
Here He says,
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Lk. 20:35-36 KJV)
These phrases describe the concept of eternity.

If your are replying to my post these 4 verses do not disprove anything I said. I made reference to 162 verses. One vs. you referenced, Jn 10:28, is in the list of 9 vs. quoting Jesus, in my post which you evidently ignored.
Evidently you think Jesus by "aionios" meant "eternal" in Jn 10:28 but something else in the other 20 vss. He used "aionios."
Did you happen to read my quotes from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT, which OBTW was translated by native Greek speaking scholars? If you wish to challenge the EOB NT you need to bring some heavy scholarship to the table.

 

[Butch5]

So IYV the wicked are punished for an age & then annihilated?

Pretty much yeah. I'm not sure what the punishment is though

 

[Der Alte]

The KJV has aionios. It's the adjective form of aion. Here is how Young's Literal translation has it.
and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand; (Jn. 10:28 YLT)
It means punishment for an age.

I have already proved that "aionios" means eternal. ""age-during" is nonsense concocted by people trying to make scripture line up with their assumptions. Also "age-during" changes an adjective into a verb.
What makes a version "literal." Apparently it is any version which supports someone's assumptions/presuppositions. FYI Young was self taught in Greek.
Again I refer to the Eastern Greek Orthodox N.T.

EOB John 10:28-29
28 I give eternal life to them, they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. “1 and the Father are one.”​

Like it or not, agree or not, in this verse Jesus has clearly defined "aionios" as "eternal" with these three phrases "they will never perish,""no one will snatch them out of my hand." and "No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."
You can't get any more eternal than that.
Here is the link to the EOB NT again in case you are interested in a real literal version. It can be downloaded.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

 

[Der Alte]

***

You surely jest. I absolutely expect nada from you. I do not blame you for not wanting to post the qualifications for "everlasting punishment".
Aionios kolasis is one thing, Aidios punishment another. When aidios is added to punishment, we have a serious problem.
Justinian, described as a “half-heathen”, made an ET declaration, but didn’t just use kolasis (punishment) aionian, but qualified it with the word ‘ateleutetos’ - which means endless.
He said “The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.”
If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Thereby admitting that kolasis aionian was NOT considered ‘eternal’ at the time.
However, as his (Julian) contemporary, Olympiodorus wrote,
“Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the Divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon.” It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner’s improvement."..

One unknown guy supposedly said one thing, somewhere, another unknown guy supposedly said another thing, somewhere. And one guy used the word "ateleutetos" which supposedly proves that "aionios" does not mean "eternal." It proves just the opposite.

"The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.” ​

He is clearly referring to Matthew 25:46 . What he has proved is "aionios" means the same thing as "ateleutetos." The life and punishment that Jesus spoke of can't be finite and eternal at the same time.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

= = = = = = = = = =

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aioniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In the EOB Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, uses αιωνιου/aioniou],” in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
If you wish to challenge this source you will need to bring some heavy scholarship to the table. Quoting biased UR "literal versions" do not prove anything except the bias of the author.

​

 

[ClementofA]

FYI Young was self taught in Greek.

Ever heard of "self taught geniuses"?

https://www.quora.com/Can-you-be-a-self-taught-genius

Again I refer to the Eastern Greek Orthodox N.T.

EOB John 10:28-29
28 I give eternal life to them, they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. “1 and the Father are one.”
​

Like it or not, agree or not, in this verse Jesus has clearly defined "aionios" as "eternal" with these three phrases "they will never perish,""no one will snatch them out of my hand." and "No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand."
You can't get any more eternal than that.
Here is the link to the EOB NT again in case you are interested in a real literal version. It can be downloaded.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

A proper translation is:

John 10:28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand."

That verse speaks of three things:

1. Eonian life. That is life during the coming eon, the millenium.

2. Believers won't be "perishing for the eon". That is the eon of the millenium.

3. No one can - snatch - a believer from Christ hand. But that doesn't rule out the believer himself jumping out of His hand. In which case they would cease to believe & 1 & 2 would no longer apply to them.

OTOH if they believe until the Lord's coming, then they will get immortality, never die, & never leave the heavenly city, etc, as many scriptures show.

OTOH those who are remaining wicked will in the coming eon be perishing, i.e. be lost, until they are finally saved.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:27-29

A better translation is:

John 10:27 My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me." 28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." 29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand. (CLV)

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

Believers get eonian life in the eon to come (Lk.18:30; Mk.10:30) while the unrighteous get punishing (Mt.25:46).

Mt.25:46 contrasts eonian destinies. Believers also become immortal at Christ's return. That speaks of an endless life.