Matthew 24:31 is about the rapture

ViaCrucis said:

Well the abomination in Daniel is most likely the desecration of the Temple under the Seleucid tyrant Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the "king of the north" mentioned in the book of Daniel.

Jesus references the historical event that happened in the past to point out what would happen at the destruction of the Temple under the Romans.

-CryptoLutheran

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Jesus wasn't referring to an historical event by Antiochus, but the end times event in Daniel 12:11-12.

It would not even make sense to be warning them in Judaea to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 - of something that took place 160 years earlier.

Here is my chart on the Olivet discourse. Which includes Matthew 24:15-22 of the great tribulation.

Douggg said:

Jesus wasn't referring to an historical event by Antiochus, but the end times event in Daniel 12:11-12.

It would not even make sense to be warning them in Judaea to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 - of something that took place 160 years earlier.

Here is my chart on the Olivet discourse. Which includes Matthew 24:15-22 of the great tribulation.

View attachment 278302

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No, it wouldn't make sense to warn them of something that happened earlier, but that's not what He was doing. He was warning them of what was going to happen in 70 AD, that was still in the future for them. The reference to Daniel was to remind them of what happened before, the total desecration of the Temple.

-CryptoLutheran

Douggg said:

I am claiming...

1. The resurrection of them who have died in Christ and the translation of the living to take place at the time of the rapture. To happen anytime between now and the 2thessalonians2:4 act by the Antichrist.

2. The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints at the beginning of the thousand years.

3. The resurrection of the rest of dead at the end of the thousand years, for the Great White Throne judgement.

All three are on my chart below.

View attachment 278298

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I see this differently to you. I see the desolation of the temple in Luke 21, then the age of the Gentiles begins.

I ignore the account in Matthew 24 it is compressed, as the desolation of the temple is not tied to the return of Jesus.

The desolation of the temple or even that abomination, is simply the AD 70 desolation that Luke describes.

The return of Jesus with the mighty angels in 2 Thessalonians 2:12, ...in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Is the judgement of all sinners, the unbelievers.

That great day when the Lord returns is that day of judgement.

ViaCrucis said:

No, it wouldn't make sense to warn them of something that happened earlier, but that's not what He was doing. He was warning them of what was going to happen in 70 AD, that was still in the future for them. The reference to Daniel was to remind them of what happened before, the total desecration of the Temple.

-CryptoLutheran

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I am not understanding your logic. The Antiochus event was 160 years earlier. The Daniel 12:11-12 abomination of desolation set-up is end times, Daniel 12:4.

Neither fit the events of 70 AD.

Douggg said:

Jesus wasn't referring to an historical event by Antiochus, but the end times event in Daniel 12:11-12.

It would not even make sense to be warning them in Judaea to flee to the mountains in Matthew 24:15-16 - of something that took place 160 years earlier.

Here is my chart on the Olivet discourse. Which includes Matthew 24:15-22 of the great tribulation.

View attachment 278302

Click to expand...

The warning to flee was to the folk in Judea not the Gentiles. You have turned two separate events into one event.

Daniel is talking about his nation, the Jews.

Jesus was talking to the apostles about the destruction of the temple, which definitely occurred in AD 70.

Douggg said:

I am not understanding your logic. The Antiochus event was 160 years earlier. The Daniel 12:11-12 abomination of desolation set-up is end times, Daniel 12:4.

Neither fit the events of 70 AD.

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You cannot omit AD 70?

Luke 21:24
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

That is AD 70 down to the letter.

You omitted the age of the Gentiles?

Matthew 24 does not mention the age of the Gentiles.

Never construct doctrine from a verse or a passage. All the letters need to be considered.

friend of said:

This sounds like putting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't Israel need God's Spirit first in order to turn to Him for reconciliation?

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Yes, it will be that day when God pours the Spirit of truth on them they will repent. When the antichrist takes over the world, he will make a treaty with Israel. And according to 2. Thess:2 they will take the antichrist to their temple in Jerusalem and declare him god. And in that moment, God will remove a mask from their eyes, and they will finally see and understand, and they will expel antichrist from there. And the antichrist will be so angry he will start an Armageddon against Israel. With his whole world army, he will surround Israel and Jerusalem. And the army will be so big, the number of soldiers will be more than the number of bullets in Israel. The Jews will know that this is the end, end they will cry out to Lord, and the Lord will remove the mask from their eyes, and they will finally see. And when they finally see and understand they will repent who they pierced on the cross, and they will receive Jesus as Messiah and in that moment, Jesus will come on Mount of Olives, destroy the antichrist and He will establish the millennium Kingdom of God here on Earth.

klutedavid said:

I see this differently to you. I see the desolation of the temple in Luke 21, then the age of the Gentiles begins.

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I don't have a disagreement with that. Luke 21:24.

I ignore the account in Matthew 24 it is compressed, as the desolation of the temple is not tied to the return of Jesus.

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Why not? The abomination of desolation is setup in Matthew 24:15, triggering the great tribulation. And at the end is the sign of the son of Man in Heaven. And then Jesus coming with power and great glory in Matthew 24:30.

A temple of some sort has to be built before Matthew 24:15 can be fulfilled.

The desolation of the temple or even that abomination, is simply the AD 70 desolation that Luke describes.

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The abomination desolation is not mentioned in Luke 21.

friend of said:

Mathew 24:33
Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door

If Christ's return was right at the door in 70AD, that just doesn't make sense!

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Your not wrong.

Read Luke 21.

Douggg said:

I don't have a disagreement with that. Luke 21:24.



Why not? The abomination of desolation is setup in Matthew 24:15, triggering the great tribulation. And at the end is the sign of the son of Man in Heaven. And then Jesus coming with power and great glory in Matthew 24:30.

A temple of some sort has to be built before Matthew 24:15 can be fulfilled.

The abomination desolation is not mentioned in Luke 21.

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Yes it is and even the word 'desolation' is mentioned by Luke.

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Got you!

klutedavid said:

You omitted the age of the Gentiles?

Matthew 24 does not mention the age of the Gentiles.

Never construct doctrine from a verse or a passage. All the letters need to be considered.

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No I did not omit the "times of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24. The times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24, is on my Olivet discourse chart, as Jews are forced into the nations, Israel is in exile, and the gospel is spread to the nations - roughly 2000 years.

klutedavid said:

Yes it is and even the word 'desolation' is mentioned by Luke.

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Got you!

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"Abomination of desolation", not just desolation.

Douggg said:

I don't have a disagreement with that. Luke 21:24.

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Then you will freely admit that the age of the Gentiles is another era now. Gone are the days of old covenant Israel. Jerusalem was smashed by the Romans and they fled all over the world.

Never again will old covenant Israel be seen. Never again will a stone temple stand in Jerusalem. We are in the era of the Gentiles.

If you are thinking that a two thousand year old temple will be rebuilt. That the blood of a thousand oxen will wash the big brass bowls for the forgiveness of the nations sins. That is, under the old covenant, sacrificial law. This occurs in the twenty first century?

Israel will have a high priest?

Israel will establish the chair of Moses as the judiciary?

Israel will surrender all criminal, civil law and adopt the law of Moses?

Douggg said:

"Abomination of desolation", not just desolation.

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Abomination means terrible, ghastly, e.t.c.

The temple being destroyed is the heart of Jerusalem, where God resides. A terrible desolation, destruction.

Douggg said:

"Abomination of desolation", not just desolation.

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Luke said, 'desolation'. If you cant see that Luke a Gentile, is referring to that same desolation in Matthew. Then you have not studied those chapters together.

friend of said:

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Agree or disagree?

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Disagree. The text has to be read without presuppositions of what it's talking about. The mention of a loud trumpet call is simply an alert. It's not exclusive to the event of the rapture. Angels are mentioned on many occasions, not exclusively to the rapture.

It means that when the time comes, wherever the elect may be somewhere on earth.. land, sea.. or in an airplane.. the angels of God will gather everyone to "the promised land."

If the attention getting sound were a church bell it's generally understood to mean that it's time to gather at the church building for Sunday services. For the Jews, the method of alert to announce a special day is the sound of a trumpet.

It's not speaking of the rapture because the angels (Luke 16 and in Revelation 12) are to escort the saints from the environment of the earth up into the highest heaven.

The angels are mentioned in Mat.24:31 because they can both influence as well as accompany (as the angel woke Peter up from sleep to lead the way out of jail Acts 12:5-11) during travel by land, sea or airplane.

But the Matthew text does not mention the highest heaven.. just the atmospheric heavens. Therefore it's speaking only of the Jews during the Tribulation because the Jews don't believe in Jesus, nor in the rapture of the Church.

The Jewish people celebrate the moeds (appointed times) for instance as they did on the day of Pentecost when numerous Jews traveled from their various non-Jewish lands to Jerusalem Acts 2:5, 9-11.
And even now there is a call going out for all Jews to return to Israel to live there.

So Jesus is speaking of that in Mat.24:31.

klutedavid said:

Then you will freely admit that the age of the Gentiles is another era now. Gone are the days of old covenant Israel. Jerusalem was smashed by the Romans and they fled all over the world.

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I am not on board with some other agenda you are wanting to push.

Jesus in the Olivet discourse gave the near term future, the long term future, and the end times future of Israel. That is what is on my chart.

klutedavid said:

If you are thinking that a two thousand year old temple will be rebuilt. That the blood of a thousand oxen will wash the big brass bowls for the forgiveness of the nations sins. That is, under the old covenant, sacrificial law. This occurs in the twenty first century?

Israel will have a high priest?

Israel will establish the chair of Moses as the judiciary?

Israel will surrender all criminal, civil law and adopt the law of Moses?

Click to expand...

A temple of some sort will be built, animal sacrifices resumed, with high priest and other priests - as the Jews will think they have enter the messianic age of peace and safety.

The vision of the transgression of desolation (which precedes the abomination of desolation), stopping of the daily sacrifice, is time of the end in Daniel 8:11-17.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

klutedavid said:

Luke said, 'desolation'. If you cant see that Luke a Gentile, is referring to that same desolation in Matthew. Then you have not studied those chapters together.

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Well, I have a chart of the verses of the Olivet discourse and the Luke 21 parallel given by Jesus in the temple courtyard - and you don't.

I also know that "abomination of desolation" is not in Luke 21.

Douggg said:

I also know that "abomination of desolation" is not in Luke 21.

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What is the mathematical probability of finding the common word elements in the two passages below, if they were not related?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
(See John 10:22 for the understanding.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

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