Total depravity

Gup20 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
That’s it? One verse? And it’s not one that even support the idea that man can do good apart from the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Abraham didn’t have the Holy Spirit but he was declared righteous for his faith without the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:16-17 (NASB) 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?"

Here are two passages which explicitly state that in dwelling of the Holy Spirit come AFTER one has believed the gospel.

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB) 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision of the heart is the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

In the context of circumcision of the heart (the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit) God says 3 times it is a choice God sets before man, not a choice God makes for him in heaven. Circumcision in the flesh was a placeholder - a representation of circumcision in the spirit that Old Testament saints performed in place of the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given.

Romans 4:9-14 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel before he was circumcised- or before he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The pattern is clear. When we make the choice to believe the gospel, we are made righteous. After we are made righteous, we are given the Holy Spirit.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

Gup20 said:
Abraham didn’t have the Holy Spirit but he was declared righteous for his faith without the Holy Spirit.

Let me stop you right there. How do you know that?

Gup20 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
Let me stop you right there. How do you know that?

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Circumcision represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was an old testament placeholder for this. This is why Deutermonomy 30 prophesies:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

and Ezekiel prophesies:

[Eze 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Regarding the circumcision of the heart, Deuteronomy 30 testifies three times:

[Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Of Deuteronomy 30, Paul says (the capitalized portions are quoting Old Testament):

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[Deu 30:10-15 NASB] 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Turning to the Lord with all your heart and soul is not too difficult for you, it is not out of reach. Turning to the lord with all your heart is not something that happens in heaven. You don't have to have someone (the Holy Spirit) go to heaven for you to get it and MAKE YOUR HEAR IT, THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT. It is a choice placed before you.

Isn't this exactly what Total Depravity claims? That the Holy Spirit is needed for you to hear the gospel and believe? That is exactly what Paul says in Romans 10:6 not to think! DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART who will ascend into heaven for us to make us hear it and believe. Don't even think that way.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

Gup20 said:
[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Circumcision represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was an old testament placeholder for this. This is why Deutermonomy 30 prophesies:

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

and Ezekiel prophesies:

[Eze 36:25-27 NASB] 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Regarding the circumcision of the heart, Deuteronomy 30 testifies three times:

[Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Of Deuteronomy 30, Paul says (the capitalized portions are quoting Old Testament):

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[Deu 30:10-15 NASB] 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Turning to the Lord with all your heart and soul is not too difficult for you, it is not out of reach. Turning to the lord with all your heart is not something that happens in heaven. You don't have to have someone (the Holy Spirit) go to heaven for you to get it and MAKE YOUR HEAR IT, THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT. It is a choice placed before you.

Isn't this exactly what Total Depravity claims? That the Holy Spirit is needed for you to hear the gospel and believe? That is exactly what Paul says in Romans 10:6 not to think! DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART who will ascend into heaven for us to make us hear it and believe. Don't even think that way.

Yes, that’s what most orthodox theologies teach. Pelagianism is heretical. It has been for nearly two millennia.

pescador · Jun 4, 2020

JLB777 said:
The scriptures I have provided, most certainly prove that man has the ability to choose to do good, and rule over sin.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. Genesis 4:7

If Cain was totally depraved, could he choose to do good, and rule over sin?

The simple truth is, totally depraved is a man made term, to promote a man made doctrine.

JLB

Where does it say "depraved", regarding Abel? Nowhere in my Bible.

However, Paul (in the New Testament) wrote, "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done." Romans 1:28

Your statement, "totally depraved is a man made term, to promote a man made doctrine." conflicts with God's Word. I will believe what is written in the Bible, not what you have written.

Noxot · Jun 4, 2020

Jesus said that only God is good. We have no life without him.

Gup20 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
Yes, that’s what most orthodox theologies teach. Pelagianism is heretical. It has been for nearly two millennia.

Not so... Pelagius claimed the "opposite ditch" of Calvinism - that it was possible to be completely sinless if we chose to be. I don't think that's Biblical and represents the opposite extreme of Calvinism which says man isn't responsible for his sin at all (he didn't choose it, afterall, God did).

The scriptural position is that man has the knowledge of BOTH good and evil... (not exclusively one or the other). It maintains that man almost always chooses evil. This doesn't negate the fact that it is his choice... nor absolve him of the responsibility to make the choice for himself.

Because of my understanding of resurrection, I actually do believe that original sin taints every person... but it taints us by giving us the ability/knowledge of doing both good and evil. But because I believe in the absolute inerrancy of scripture, I also accept that we know both good and evil, and that God commands us to choose between life and death, blessing and cursing...and that it is not a choice He makes for us in heaven.

[Heb 10:1-2 NASB] 1 For the Law, since it has [only] a shadow of the good things to come [and] not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

Even the unsaved have both a consciousness of sin, and a consciousness of good (the knowledge of good and evil). Even we who are saved continue to have a consciousness of our sin... so we haven't yet been fully rid of our sin nature, even though we are righteous. In fact all Christians still die... so even though we are made righteous by faith, we are still under the original curse and Adam's original judgement.

There hasn't been any new or additional judgment of humanity. The next judgement that will occur will be the Great White Throne judgement. Whilst Adam's judgement was UNIVERSAL (Adam, Eve, all humans, all animals, all plants, all matter were cursed), the Great White Throne judgement will be an individual judgement. There will be a repeal of Adam's judgement because ALL human beings will be resurrected (the righteous and the wicked) and then will face the second judgement - the Great white Throne judgement - the individual judgment. Adam's universal judgement isn't permanent.

So while we are ALL tainted by Adam's judgement and the curse, and continue to be affected even after getting saved (obviously, we can still choose to sin, and in fact Paul says he doesn't do the good his inner man wants to do). So while Original Sin is real, and does taint us and does influence our natural behavior, it doesn't prevent us from making the choice God commands us to make between life & death.

The point Pelagius and Augustine differed on (one of them anyway) were how a person was defined from the beginning... essentially the question do you sin because you were born a sinner or are you a sinner once you have sinned? Unlike Pelagius, I think we are born into a sinful world subjugated to Adam's judgement of death. The consciousness of sin has not been removed from our planet because "sin is in the world." But just because we have a consciousness of sin doesn't mean we lost the consciousness of righteousness.... as scripture says we have the knowledge of good as well as evil. We are, contrary to Calvinistic thought, capable -- even required -- to make the choice for ourselves.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

Gup20 said:
Pelagius claimed the "opposite ditch" of Calvinism

While he may have claimed that, that’s not Pelagianism.

Gup20 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
While he may have claimed that, that’s not Pelagianism.

Right... that's why I said it that way.

To be clear, I think both Calvinism and Armenianism are wrong. They both make the same faulty assumptions.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

Gup20 said:
Right... that's why I said it that way.

To be clear, I think both Calvinism and Armenianism are wrong. They both make the same faulty assumptions.

Okay. And I think your Pelagianism is heretical.

Gup20 · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
Okay. And I think your Pelagianism is heretical.

You'll find I don't subscribe to any systematic theologies because I don't really care what conclusions others have come to... the conclusions I have come to are things I think about what I have actually read in scripture, or things the Holy Spirit has revealed to me through scripture.

To be fair, I didn't know what Pelagianism was until you said that and I went to look it up this morning. I don't read extra-biblical sources. Any similarities are co-incidental. He clearly didn't teach what I am saying. It's just an easy way for you to dismiss my arguments without having to think about them.

You haven't as yet, for example, provided any Biblical reason why the knowledge of good and evil should be construed to mean only the knowledge of evil. Nor, for another example, that scripture commands us to choose between life & death, the blessing or the curse. Nor, for example, the fact that Paul so much as commanded us not to even think in our hearts that we need the Holy Spirit in order to choose to believe the gospel.

If you allowed yourself to think about those questions, it would become cognitively dissonant, and require a paradigm shift.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

Gup20 said:
You'll find I don't subscribe to any systematic theologies because I don't really care what conclusions others have come to..

Maybe. But what you’ve posted that I’ve responded to is Pelagianism.

pescador · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
Maybe. But what you’ve posted that I’ve responded to is Pelagianism.

BTW, turkeys can and do fly. Your tag line is ridiculous.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

pescador said:
BTW, turkeys can and do fly. Your tag line is ridiculous.

Not if you’ve ever seen the episode.

pescador · Jun 4, 2020

Hammster said:
Not if you’ve ever seen the episode.

Seen what episode? A cartoon?

I've seen turkeys many times and in reality, they fly. You should put a qualifier on your tag line.

Hammster · Jun 4, 2020

pescador said:
Seen what episode? A cartoon?

I've seen turkeys many times and in reality, they fly. You should put a qualifier on your tag line.

I’ve never had an issue, and it’s been there from the beginning. If you don’t know, well, bummer. ^_^

Michie · Jun 4, 2020

Oh good grief. The things people argue about.

JLB777 · Jun 5, 2020

Hammster said:
That’s it? One verse? And it’s not one that even support the idea that man can do good apart from the Holy Spirit.

When did I say man can do good apart from the Holy Spirit.

I said Total Depravity is an unbiblical term.

I said Calvinism is a man made doctrine.

The doctrine of Christ is what Christians follow.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Calvinism is what Calvinists follow.

JLB

Hammster · Jun 5, 2020

JLB777 said:
When did I say man can do good apart from the Holy Spirit.

I said Total Depravity is an unbiblical term.

I said Calvinism is a man made doctrine.

The doctrine of Christ is what Christians follow.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Calvinism is what Calvinists follow.

JLB

In the post I quoted you said one of that. You said man has the ability to do good. Is that an inherent ability? If so, then you have no argument with my post. If not, then your view is inconsistent.

JLB777 · Jun 5, 2020

Hammster said:
In the post I quoted you said one of that. You said man has the ability to do good. Is that an inherent ability? If so, then you have no argument with my post. If not, then your view is inconsistent.

I quoted scripture.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

Does your doctrine teach that Cain was Totally Depraved?

JLB

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