Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Major1 said:

I am some what perplexed that you would state such a thing.

First of all....there is according to Scripture, TWO judgments. Because YOU have not understood that is in no way a reason to use personal comments.

#1
Romans 14:10-12...…..
"You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'" So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God."

That tells us that Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone, but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ so as to receive rewards done in Christs service.

#2.
The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15...…..
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Ironically, this judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire.

The Scriptures posted for you says that unbelievers will be “judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified”, they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God’s laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God’s perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.

If you do not like those words from the Bible then please feel free to reject them and continue to blame me for your rejection of them.

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agapelove said:

Not sure what Bible you're reading from but I believe in one day of judgment and one judgement seat, which belongeth to Christ.

Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world ... Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John 5:25 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

2 Timothy 1:10 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 12:36-37 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I think you get the picture.

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ClementofA said:

He didn't repent while he was alive. But he was going to repent postmortem.




Lk.16:26a, CLV, And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established,

It does not say this chasm will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Neither does it explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over. Or deny that if they repented they could then end their torments.

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

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ClementofA said:

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FineLinen said:

Dear Old Country Guy: As long as you or any other dude or dudette attempt to represent the Father of all fathers in the ghastly dogma of unending torment, I will resist it with the gang of 4 + ! !

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ClementofA said:

Yet many Bible versions speak of His mercy enduring forever.

Evidently you reject that. You say "mercy ends".

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ClementofA said:

He didn't repent while he was alive. But he was going to repent postmortem.




Lk.16:26a, CLV, And in all this, between us and you a great chasm has been established,

It does not say this chasm will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Neither does it explain what keeps those who are in torments from crossing over. Or deny that if they repented they could then end their torments.

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

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Major1 said:

No sir I do not agree. There will be TWO judgments.

The Bema Seat of Christ is immediately after the Rapture. It is described in
1 Corth. 3:10-15 as well as other places.

Romans 14:10 …………….
"But you who eat vegetables only – why do you judge your brother or sister? And you who eat everything – why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God"

As I stated, it is a reward ceremony instead of a judgment of sin. Everyone there will be believers and their fate has already been determined. Everyone there is going to heaven.

The second judgment is the Great WHite Throne judgment as seen in
Revelation 20:11-15...…….
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

As it can be clearly seen, ALL the people at this judgment are lost and ALL wind up in the Lake of Fire.

You are not arguing with me on this but instead on the Bible as it teaches both of these judgments.

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Major1 said:

No, I did not read another one of your long production. I did however read the first sentence where you said...…...
"But he was going to repent postmortem."
Is there any Scripture that validates your opinion????????

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Der Alte said:

I think these verses show there is no repentance after death.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

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Der Alte said:

I only had one argument which has NOT been disproved.
Jesus did not say, or imply "night is coming when I cannot work but don't worry I'll be back." Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh. He said "no man can work" And those who have died cannot work.

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Der Alte said:

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish

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Der Alte said:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

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Der Alte said:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

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Der Alte said:

There is no hope in the grave/hell.
Nobody in the grave/hell are waiting or seeking for anything.
Nobody in the grave/hell is waiting for salvation.
Nobody is bearing any yokes in the grave/hell.

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Der Alte said:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

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Major1 said:

Greek: tartaros
Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”
2 Peter 2:4............
" For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment".

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Major1 said:

No, I did not read another one of your long production. I did however read the first sentence where you said...…...
"But he was going to repent postmortem."

Is there any Scripture that validates your opinion????????

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XYZ said:

I see there is still not one single incidence of any passage in God's word that describes anyone coming out of the lake of fire.

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FineLinen said:

Big guy: All four hells are NOT eternal, including tartaroó.

There is NO such animal as "eternal torment" !

You really need to focus: aionios is NOT aidios, the word that defines the Aidios God in Scripture.

All four hells are consummated in the One who eats it, the Master of Reconciliation, the Lord of Glory.

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Der Alte said:

I think these verses show there is no repentance after death.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

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agapelove said:

You failed to address ANY of the scriptures I have provided so I will not even bother to address yours. No, I am not arguing with the Bible. I am arguing with your premillenial LIE that there will be 2 future comings of Christ and 2 unrelated judgments. There is ONE JUDGMENT for ALL PEOPLE where the RIGHTEOUS will be REWARDED and the WICKED will be CONDEMNED. Yours is a doctrine that wants to further discriminate between believers and unbelievers by giving them separate judgment days! Absolute nonsense.

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Major1 said:

I just read and accept what the Bible says even if I do not like what it says.

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agapelove said:

No friend you are reading and accepting an egregiously mistranslated verse in ENGLISH and then allowing it to violate your sense of justice and virtue. Do better.

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ClementofA said:

Concerning anyone coming out of lake of fire, the second death. The Saviour of all says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26). God will be "all in all" (v.28) even all those who were in Adam of the context (v.22). That alone debunks your endless punishment theory & affirms Scriptural universalism.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

For further evidence, in the book of Revelation, the gates into New Jerusalem will be always open & leaves for the healing of the nations. The immortals in the NJ need no healing. That's for those in the lake of fire.

Furthermore there is mountains of additional evidence for universalism:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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Major1 said:

I do not blame you at all. If I believed what you did I would not try to defend it with Scriptures either simply because there are none.

Nice talking with and you have a wonderful day/night/week!

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ClementofA said:

You think those verses which are commonly used by "soul sleep" advocates (SDA, JW) to support their erroneous doctrine "show there is no repentance after death"? How?

Here's what you never answered:



What argument? Where does any of that, or anything in John 9, say, imply, suggest or even hint that maybe people cannot repent or be saved after death? It looks to me like you've got nothing.

Jesus did not say, as you allege, "those who have died cannot work". And even if that were true, their resurrection from death back to life might reverse that.

Jesus said "night cometh, when no man can work". He didn't say "once night cometh no man will ever have another chance to repent or be saved".

What does it matter if "Jesus did not preach to Paul in the flesh". Work is work, regardless. As is His intercession, raising the dead, judging the world, etc.

Since He appeared to & spoke to His disciples & preached postmortem, then such works continued & nothing in John 9 rules out Jesus doing so in Hades & the LOF for the repentance & salvation of those there.

Moreover the context in John 9 isn't even talking about salvation, but healing a blind man so he can see:

1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, 7And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 8The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. 10Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened? 11He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight. 12Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.




A number of commentators apply verse 14 to - nations - God had (past tense) destroyed in this world, which means it could have nothing to do with the - future - final destiny of individuals - postmortem in another world. Furthermore, many translations do not put it in the future tense "shall not live" as the KJV does, but in the present tense "do not live". Both of these points defeat the verse as an annihilationist "proof text".




Compare Lk.16:19-31. Did the "rich man" in Hades "know not any thing"? Or is Eccl.9:5 speaking of corpses such as are, for example, put in graves?



See my previous comment.





Do you have scripture to support any of those statements? If so, which verses apply to each of them? Do you, therefore, believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep"?



Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died did "know not any thing" and "the memory of [him was] forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5, quoted above by you)? That the story about him is fictional?

Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died "shall not rise" (Isa.26:14) when all the dead are risen?

Is it, therefore, your viewpoint that Love Omnipotent will not "shew wonders to the dead" and the dead will never "arise and praise Thee" (Psa.88:10)?

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