Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
But it doesn't prove hell is a place of people that have died in the past. Fallen angels are currently roaming mostly freely on earth, from the fall, NOT HUMANS that have died already. Everything you said about these things are all alive right now. If fallen angels were in hell they would be burning right now not here.

Hades and The Lake of Fire are different.

Hades is Temporary.

.

agapelove · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
Please explain you simply made a statement. I explained what yours meant because you quoted something that doesn't say what you think it says.

Hebrews 8 is very straightforward.

Sorry. I meant to say Hebrews 9. My explanation is in post #86. Verse 27 is stating the obvious. Where are you getting the idea of no hope after death? Your search query in scripture has lead to a dead end.

FineLinen · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
Romans 8 says nothing for your doctrine. If you die believing then you will not be separated by the love of God. If you die believing then death won't separate you from God's love. You will be resurrected to eternal life.

Hi there Andre.

Romans 8 speaks of us and them, not only they, but us also.

Within that context there is the expansion to "the whole creation" made subject to vanity "not willingly", but by reason of Him who made it so.

The outcome =

The whole of created life shall be delivered / set free.

Andre_b · May 20, 2020

agapelove said:
Sorry. I meant to say Hebrews 9. My explanation is in post #86. Verse 27 is stating the obvious. Where are you getting the idea of no hope after death? Your search query in scripture has lead to a dead end.

You are the one in the dead end. Romans 8 was refuted previously. Hebrews 9 verse 27 says "...ONCE TO DIE and THEN THE judgment". After you die there's a final judgment that's why it says THE.

Andre_b · May 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
Hi there Andre.

Romans 8 speaks of us and them, not only they, but us also.

Within that context there is the expansion to "the whole creation" made subject to vanity "not willingly", but by reason of Him who made it so.

The outcome =

The whole of created life shall be delivered / set free.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Set free from sin.

agapelove · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
You are the one in the dead end. Romans 8 was refuted previously. Hebrews 9 verse 27 says "...ONCE TO DIE and THEN THE judgment". After you die there's a final judgment that's why it says THE.

90% of translations do not include the word "the", FYI.

That is also not even what I am arguing here. I think we both agree that there is only one GWTJ. This judgment separates those who will be allowed to enter into New Jerusalem at Christ's coming, and those who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Where do you see "no hope" inserted? Or is that just your interpretation?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

Quote from Tertullian talking about Hades :

• Tertullian - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; The Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs - Chapter 55 ( LV.) - # 323
(155-240 A.D.)

ANF3 Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul

"You have a treatise by us, (on Paradise), in which we have established the position That Every Soul Is Detained In Safe Keeping In Hades Until The Day Of The Lord."

.

Andre_b · May 20, 2020

agapelove said:
90% of translations do not include the word "the", FYI.

That is also not even what I am arguing here. I think we both agree that there is only one GWTJ. This judgment separates those who will be allowed to enter into New Jerusalem at Christ's coming, and those who will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Where do you see "no hope" inserted? Or is that just your interpretation?

Because the lake of fire is after the last judgment or the resurrection of the wicked, can't remember, but I'll give you the information later. The lake of fire is not exactly what you say it is. Please quote a verse for lake and fire and that it's immediately after death.

90% of those translations are wrong. truth is irrelevant of majority opinion.

Andre_b · May 20, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Quote from Tertullian talking about Hades :

• Tertullian - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; The Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs - Chapter 55 ( LV.) - # 323
(155-240 A.D.)

ANF3 Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul

"You have a treatise by us, (on Paradise), in which we have established the position That Every Soul Is Detained In Safe Keeping In Hades Until The Day Of The Lord."

.

Sorry that's not the bible. I don't take the opinion or invention of some guy.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
Sorry that's not the bible. I don't take the opinion or invention of some guy.

But You Do take the opinion and invention of Ellen G. White though.

.

Der Alte · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
... 90% of those translations are wrong. truth is irrelevant of majority opinion.

How do you know if/when a translation is wrong? Have you ever formally studied either Hebrew or Greek? Can you locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb? Do you know what a subjunctive is or a hithpael?

FineLinen · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
I'm not sure what you are saying. Set free from sin.

Andre, I will attempt to make it as clear as I can.

The words for "set free" =

kathistemi eleutheroo

Kathistemi = to appoint / constitute.

Eleutheroo = to make free from sin. To deliver.

No more let sin & sorrow grow or thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow .......

FAR AS THE CURSE IS FOUND

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
His child is indeed in the grave just like David, but David will be resurrected and so will the child. You really believe David was saying that he will go to his child, in the grave, when dead but not when resurrected into heaven? I don't believe God would sent aborted babies into hell, there is no in-between also, like purgatory or anything like that unbiblical stuff.

I suppose people with severe mental deficiencies will go to hell also?

David had recently committed horrible sins, premeditated adultery & murder. Who's to say he was even guaranteed of going to heaven?

Also where does Scripture say "there is no in-between also, like purgatory"?

Are we to believe an aborted baby will be raised as such & remain in the mental state of a baby for all eternity?

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Der Alte said:
How do you know if/when a translation is wrong? Have you ever formally studied either Hebrew or Greek? Can you locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb? Do you know what a subjunctive is or a hithpael?

How would you know when a translation is wrong? Why have blind faith in one translation & reject the rest?

Could most modern translations be in error?

A new New Testament translation by EO scholar DB Hart

ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
Sorry there are no second chances after death. One verse says this plain and simple, all other verses you twist out of context. Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

"Mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13b)

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

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ClementofA · May 20, 2020

Andre_b said:
This is only symbolic and not literal. Peter means stone, Jesus is the rock. Peter was a leader but didn't establish a church or denomination. Jesus is the foundation/rock of the body of Christ, peter is one stone of the entire "Church".

the Church: the whole body of Christian believers.

How can you burning in hell and be alive for ever? I thought only believers live for ever?
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." perish means you die, everlasting life means life after resurrection.

More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

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Gregory Thompson · May 20, 2020

I find the way we see how God punishes others, is how we would like to punish others. It goes back to the golden rule in a sense. So however you judge others, you too will be judged.

SkyWriting · May 21, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, WHERE HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
Because I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FIRE.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let Him Warn Them, So That They Will Not Also Come TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.’
.

This torment does interfere with normal thinking, compassion, family values, and relaxed conversation.
The torment is self-imposed regret over not asking God for forgiveness. The bulk of it is having used ones tongue in ways that harmed the spirit of others.

Andre_b · May 21, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
But You Do take the opinion and invention of Ellen G. White though.

.

Thats a pretty big assumption. I never read her writing. SDA doesn't mean Ellen G White. Sure some are completely obsessed with her and some are too attached, however, reading other information lead me to the truth. She does have some good information just like all other denominations, however, no human is perfect, same for any denomination. However, some are completely deceived while others are very close to the truth. Some of which is not a salvation issue.

Andre_b · May 21, 2020

Der Alte said:
How do you know if/when a translation is wrong? Have you ever formally studied either Hebrew or Greek? Can you locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb? Do you know what a subjunctive is or a hithpael?

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]

ClementofA said:
More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

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You are using version that have been corrupted. Are you telling me that the first English translation of the bible that God allowed was corrupted so the the people would be deceived from the start? And that most other language translations have used the KJV? Wow.

Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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