Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[ClementofA]

David is "Going" to "Where" the child Is.


I Shall Go TO Him .....

• 2 Samuel 12:23




.

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

 

[ClementofA]

No.

The verse is referring to People Who Take The Mark Of The Beast And Worship The Beast :



Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
"If Anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever And Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

• Revelation 14:9-11


.

But the Fearful, and Unbelieving, and The Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and All liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8



And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If Any Man Worship The Beast And His Image, And Receive His Mark In His Forehead, Or In His Hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels, And In The Presence Of The Lamb: And the smoke of Their Torment Ascendeth up For Ever and Ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
• Revelation 14:9-11

There's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


---


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Der Alte]

If we can take "Abraham's bosom" as a figure of speech then we can take the flames as a figure of speech as well.

Wrong! "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." We know that "bosom of Abraham" refers to the position of honor at a dinner or feast.
We do not know for a fact that the fire is a figure of speech.

And it is also said (s) of Rabbi, when he died, היום יושב בחיקו של אברהם, "this day he sits in the bosom of Abraham"; for as it was usual with them to represent the joys of heaven by a feast, so the partaking of them, by sitting down at a table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; see Mat_8:11 and as their manner at meals was by lying along on couches at eating; he that lay next another might be said to lie, or lean, in his bosom: hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world. The ascension of Christ is expressed by a being "carried up into heaven", Luk_24:51
(s) Talmud. Babylon. Kiddushin, fol. 72. 2. Juchasin, fol. 75. 2​

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

Nope.


..... I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14


.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

There's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism


---


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

You probably had this this whole Wall of Text saved in a file somewhere
ready to copy and paste at a moments notice.

And Hades is still a place of torment and agony and Universalism is still Condemned Heretical Trash.


.

 

[agapelove]

hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world.

Hence also the fire signifies Dives' agony and thirst in the reversal of fortunes.

You have no problem with Abraham's bosom being symbolic but you reject the fire's symbolism because it betrays your entire ECT doctrine. Don't bother responding to my posts until you can learn to debate fairly.

 

[ReesePiece23]

I take it that none of you are going to hades then?

Good.


If anyone wants me, I'll be in hades.

 

[Der Alte]

...

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

I have always found it helpful to read all scripture instead of reading only a list of out-of-context proof texts.
What about children, infants, the mentally handicapped, people in remote areas who have never heard the gospel etc?

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

 

[ClementofA]

How many semesters of Greek have you had which give you the requisite knowledge of what is/is not a reasonable translation of the Greek?

That's irrelevant regarding the topic which was this:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end....

What was written specifically to disobedient Israel is for but NOT to believers today.​

The truth is the truth, whether spoken to Israel or Trump's grandmother. If Love Omnipotent tells anyone He is not going to cast men off forever, then the endless casting off of men forever doctrine is false:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

Supposedly reading the Greek for many years does not qualify anyone to translate the Greek.

What qualifies you to say who is qualified for anything? Are you all knowing & know everything about all translators? Such as if they are geniuses, or if they translate according to their theological biases, or according to filthy lucre, or if they are influenced by demons? Hart's translation of aionion alines with the view of Early Church Father universalists.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

If you think anything I quoted is "appeal to authority" then everything you quote is doubly so since you have repeatedly demonstrated you cannot support anything you say without quoting some anonymous UR writer.

That's obviously wrong when you say "you cannot support anything you say without quoting some anonymous UR writer."

It's true that i appeal to authority in response to your constant appeals to authority. That's what you do instead of dealing with the actual reasoned points i make. You continually appeal to authoities as if they're some kind of excathedra infallible popes. Such as what you call the "irrefutable" Jewish Encyclopedia, for one example.

Something occurred to me while I was returning from lunch today.
In the last 6 months you have posted something you claimed was said by Origen, You claim, eleven [11] times that "Origen spoke about 'life after eternal life?'" or "life beyond after life."

Can you find a quote by me saying that anywhere, or is your remark false. Are you confusing it with something i quoted?

I have corrected you repeatedly but you persist in posting this patently false claim. Therefore I must ask myself if someone repeatedly posts something patently false can we trust anything he says?

Such as your false remarks above?

You think you corrected me, but did you? See below.

Here is what Origen actually said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

Note Origen did NOT say "life after eternal life" or "life beyond eternal life"
In context, Origen said 'the fountain that appears ... leaps into eternal life. And after [leaping into] eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain only] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life."
There is nothing in any of Origen's writings which says anything about "life after eternal life" for any believers. "Also leap" must refer back to "leap into eternal life" The only thing after eternal life is the father and perhaps the fountain.
If we can get this one irrefutable fact straight we might have some basis for continuing.

Here is what you continually fail to respond to:

Here is what Origen said.

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
Note carefully this passages says absolutely nothing about "life after eternal life."
When read in context this says "the fountain leaps...into eternal life..." [John 4:14] In the next sentence "after eternal life perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life" The only thing after eternal life is the Father, who is greater that Christ. and perhaps the fountain.
Later in the same writing we read this

Even there you admit to an "after eternal life" in Origen.

Do you suppose the water of the fountain of life within believers (which Jesus gives them) will depart from believers & leap into the Father who is "beyond life aionios"? That this fountain of living water within believers will dump them & leave them behind while the fountain of life goes on its merry way alone? It doesn't sound very "inanimate" when put it like that, does it? Rather than leaving the believer to travel all alone, Origen says the fountain of living waters within the believer are leaping & "CARRYING him to that higher life which is aionios" (13:16). Then in 13:19a the implication is that "after aionios life" perhaps the fountain of living waters will also leap into the Father who is "beyond aionios life". The first time the living waters leapt they did so within the believer & CARRIED the believer to aionios life. Do you assume it would be any different the second time? Then in 13:19b Origen identifies the life as Christ, referring back to what was just spoken by the word "For". And in 13:26 Origen states believers "possess" the fountain within themselves. For them to posssess it, they have to go with it when it goes "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life". Otherwise they would no longer possess it & be lost.

And what do the Scriptures in John's gospel (which Origen is commenting on & quoting) say about this fountain of LIVING (not inanimate) waters inside of all true believers in Jesus:

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee LIVING water.

John 4:14
yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the EON, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a SPRING of water, WELLING up into LIFE EONian.

John 7:37
If anyone should be thirsting, let him COME TO ME and DRINK."

John 7:38-39
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of LIVING water.'" But this He spoke of the SPIRIT, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the SPIRIT was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3] Pg. 80
Origen is quoting another writer who says of "eternal life" "never perishes,"'remains,""not taken away" and "is not consumed" And Origen never disagrees with this statement..

(1) Origen, in 3:19 speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life".

(2) Even the words of Heracleon do not speak of aionios life, but of life that is (a) aionios and (b) never perishes, etc.. IOW it pertains to (a) an aion(eon/age) or multiple eons & (b) never perishes. If (a) meant eternal, then (b) would be superfluous, therefore useless info. Therefore (a) is finite. Which supports what Origen already said in 3:19.

So if aionios meant eternal there, to add "and never perishes" would be redundant, hence pointless.

Origen speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life". Clearly the translation "eternal" is wrong & the word for it, AIONIOS, is of finite duration. Compare Mt.25:46 where the same word is deceptively translated by KJV & its HellFire Boys Club clones as "eternal" or "everlasting".


Could most modern translations be in error?

 

[Noxot]

No.

The verse is referring to People Who Take The Mark Of The Beast And Worship The Beast :



Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
"If Anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels And In The Presence Of The Lamb.

And the smoke of their Torment ascends Forever And Ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

• Revelation 14:9-11


.

The mark of the beast is the flesh. You can see these patterns that are in Revelation also scattered everywhere throughout the Bible. It depicts a spiritual process of man and God. The smoke of her torment ascending forever is a reality that I experience every day. There is no difference between the Lake of Fire and in the pure crystalline glass that the Saints stand on. These are all spiritual descriptions that we must experience for ourselves. I know God as infinite love because he is destroying the accusers and evil ones inside of me.

They have no rest day or night until they keep the Sabbath. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth in the outer Darkness but the gates of the New Jerusalem are always open. The sinful cannot enter into it but that's okay because being crucified with Christ will bring us into the city.

God is constant and faithful. It is his people that are slow to turn to him. The torments and the torture will remain until they say hosanna blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Then God will burn through the thorns and the Briars.

 

[Noxot]

Nope.


..... I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14


.

Salvation is to awaken to his likeness. When that happened my torments were revealed to be divine love. I never wish them to be stopped.

 

[ClementofA]

Nope.


..... I Shall Be Satisfied When I Awake In Your Likeness.

• Psalms 17:14


.

Awake from where? The grave where he is now?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Your verse doesn't mention David's child, and is not the context of the topic in 2 Samuel. So, again, irrelevant. David also died and went to the grave. So the facts remain, as i said:

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

Furthermore, even if he knew he would go to the child in heaven, that doesn't prove the child went there immediately upon his death, forced into heaven without being given a free will choice & forced to be born again, with or without repentance & faith.

 

[ClementofA]

And Hades is still a place of torment and agony and Universalism is still Condemned Heretical Trash.


.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages. It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

 

[ClementofA]

I have always found it helpful to read all scripture instead of reading only a list of out-of-context proof texts.
What about children, infants, the mentally handicapped, people in remote areas who have never heard the gospel etc?

Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

Unless born again, no one gets into the kingdom (John 3).

So there is after death salvation.

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Hence also the fire signifies Dives' agony and thirst in the reversal of fortunes.

*** Long Read ***


Nope.


• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus - Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 187 - 1. and 3. (170–235 A.D.)

ANF5 Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II


1. And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which The Souls Both Of The Righteous And The Unrighteous Are Detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one's deeds The Temporary Punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And The Unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), Shall Be Sentenced To This Endless Punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham's bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels Who Are Ministers Of Punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near Hear Incessantly The Agitation,
And Feel The Hot Smoke. And when that vision is so near, as They See The Terrible And Excessively Glowing Spectacle Of The Fire, They Shudder In Horror At The Expectation Of The Future Judgment, (as if they were) Already Feeling The Power Of Their Punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.



3. For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word. For the Father hath committed all judgment to Him; and in fulfilment of the Father's counsel, He cometh as Judge whom we call Christ. For it is not Minos and Rhadamanthys that are to judge (the world), as ye fancy, O Greeks, but He whom God the Father hath glorified, of whom we have spoken elsewhere more in particular, for the profit of those who seek the truth. He, in administering the righteous judgment of the Father to all, assigns to each what is righteous according to his works. And being present at His judicial decision, all, both men and angels and demons, shall utter one voice, saying, "Righteous is Thy judgment." Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, And To The Lovers Of Iniquity Shall Be Given Eternal Punishment. And The Fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from The Body With Unending Pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from Punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them. For neither are the righteous seen by them any longer, nor are they worthy of remembrance ......

.

 

[agapelove]

1. And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which The Souls Both Of The Righteous And The Unrighteous Are Detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one's deeds the temporary punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And The Unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), Shall Be Sentenced To This Endless Punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham's bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels Who Are Ministers Of Punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near Hear Incessantly The Agitation,
And Feel The Hot Smoke. And when that vision is so near, as They See The Terrible And Excessively Glowing Spectacle Of The Fire, They Shudder In Horror At The Expectation Of The Future Judgment, (as if they were) Already Feeling The Power Of Their Punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.



3. For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word. For the Father hath committed all judgment to Him; and in fulfilment of the Father's counsel, He cometh as Judge whom we call Christ. For it is not Minos and Rhadamanthys that are to judge (the world), as ye fancy, O Greeks, but He whom God the Father hath glorified, of whom we have spoken elsewhere more in particular, for the profit of those who seek the truth. He, in administering the righteous judgment of the Father to all, assigns to each what is righteous according to his works. And being present at His judicial decision, all, both men and angels and demons, shall utter one voice, saying, "Righteous is Thy judgment." Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And The Fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from The Body With Unending Pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from Punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them. For neither are the righteous seen by them any longer, nor are they worthy of remembrance ....

Your entire argument is useless and irrelevant considering the Great White Throne Judgment has not even occurred yet.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Your entire argument is useless and irrelevant considering the Great White Throne Judgment has not even occurred yet.

Hades is place Before Great White Throne Judgment.

The Unrighteous Feel the hot smoke, feel the horror of the expectation of the lake of fire, and some experience Temporary Punishments while they are in Hades Even Before The Great White Throne Judgment.


.

 

[agapelove]

Hades is place Before Great White Throne Judgment.

The Unrighteous Feel the hot smoke, feel the horror of the expectation of the lake of fire, and some experience Temporary Punishments while they are in Hades Even Before The Great White Throne Judgment.

I am aware. You are the one that's attributing eternal punishment and unending fire to Hades. If Hades is consequently the same thing as the Lake of Fire then what is the point of the Final Judgment? What is this? A sneak peak?

Is your god a sadist?

 

[Andre_b]

In scripture it often speaks of a - person - going to the grave. Rather than a body. So the issue is whether or not David meant he would join his child in the graveyard or elsewhere. AFAIK he didn't say one way or the other. If not then the verse looks like a - big fail - if you think it's a "proof text" that murdered aborted babies are forced into God's kingdom without a choice & or without being born again, which is required BTW as per John 3.

His child is indeed in the grave just like David, but David will be resurrected and so will the child. You really believe David was saying that he will go to his child, in the grave, when dead but not when resurrected into heaven? I don't believe God would sent aborted babies into hell, there is no in-between also, like purgatory or anything like that unbiblical stuff.

I suppose people with severe mental deficiencies will go to hell also?

Acts 2:29, Peter is preaching. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both-" what does it say? "-dead and buried, and his sepulcher, his tomb is with us unto this day." Acts 2:34 tells us that David is not ascended into heaven. Now friends, I don’t know if we could be more specific than that. David is dead. He is buried. He’s not in heaven. He will be on resurrection day however.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I am aware. You are the one that's attributing eternal punishment and unending fire to Hades. If Hades is consequently the same thing as the Lake of Fire then what is the point of the Final Judgment? What is this? A sneak peak?

It is an Expectation of Their Future Punishment :

"And when that vision is so near, as They See The Terrible And Excessively Glowing Spectacle Of The Fire, They Shudder In Horror At The Expectation Of The Future Judgment, (as if they were) Already Feeling The Power Of Their Punishment."


.