Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

ClementofA

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And you pulling a verse out of context to try-to make it mean something different is tiring
Hebrews 4:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

YOu should know by now that a verse like this is talking about our tendency to fail spiritually because we have a sin nature. It has nothing to do with physical infirmity! Context clearly shows this is moral or spiritual infirmities!

God willingly and intentionally makes people suffer!

Who said anything about "physical infirmity"? Obviously Love Omnipotent intentionally makes people suffer. That includes allowing them to be tempted & the sufferings involved in resisting temptation. But if you think the Saviour of the world doesn't care about people's physical sufferings, perhaps you should read Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. Or just revisit the verse in Lamentations 3 that got this whole line of discussion going:

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
 
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nolidad

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Children, infants, the mentally handicapped etc?
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Well I can only answer with teh definitive SCriptures!

John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

man is anthropos which means human. Dos not give caveats for any category of people.
"The age of innocence" is not spoken of in Scripture, but only by misunderstanding Scriptures does it imply children are saved, thjen lost then have to be saved again!

The only possible verse that may redeem this concept is this:
Romans 9:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


IF (and that is a big if) God chooses to save infants and the mentally handicapped- that is His business and He left us no definitive answer other than if true- Romans 9 tells us it none of our business but His!

But also remember this- People by nature are born sinners. we do not become sinners when we sin, we sin because by nature we are sinners! Eph. 2
 
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Der Alte

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The "promise" is the assurance of salvation in knowing that we are children of God. ie. verse 17 "I will receive you" and verse 18 "I will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters" and in 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Again, there is a distinction between hope (in salvation) and purification. You are confused because you think salvation = faith = repentance = obedience = purification. They are all distinct steps in the process with salvation as the foundation. As Scripture clearly states, we are saved by grace, meaning that it was the first step, purposed in Christ since the foundation of the world and accomplished in His death and resurrection (Eph 3.11)
.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​
= = = = = = = = = =
2 Corinthians 6:16-18
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for [1] ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,[2] I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and [3] I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and [4] I will receive you,
18 And [5] will be a Father unto you, and [6] ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Corinthians 7:1
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
What promises "these promises," plural, something near not distant. See vss. 17-18, 6 promises.
Wrong, see above, plural promises not one single promise.

Acts of the apostles 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts of the apostles 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
 
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FineLinen

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1. True
2. False John 8:44, John 1:12

False nothing!

GOD THE FATHER OF MEN

God is the Father of all men. “Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?” (Mal. 2:10).

A kind Father will not punish his children but for their good. God is evidently called the Father of all men in the Scriptures, and this is not an unmeaning name; he has the disposition and principles of a Father. He loves with a Father’s love; he watches with a Father’s care; he reproves with a Father’s tenderness; he punishes with a Father’s design.

God is the Father of all men; and, therefore, he cannot make mankind endlessly miserable.
 
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nolidad

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Who said anything about "physical infirmity"? Obviously Love Omnipotent intentionally makes people suffer. That includes allowing them to be tempted & the sufferings involved in resisting temptation. But if you think the Saviour of the world doesn't care about people's physical sufferings, perhaps you should read Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. Or just revisit the verse in Lamentations 3 that got this whole line of discussion going:

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.


And you forget that at the time of this writing the doctrine of eternal punishment was only beginning to be revealed by God!

And if you read the context-it is suffering imposed in this life that is being referred to!

Also Solomon is referring to sinful ways and evangelizes people to repent so that teh Lord may bring good again! Context again matters!
 
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nolidad

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False nothing!

GOD THE FATHER OF MEN

God is the Father of all men. “Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us?” (Mal. 2:10).

A kind Father will not punish his children but for their good. God is evidently called the Father of all men in the Scriptures, and this is not an unmeaning name; he has the disposition and principles of a Father. He loves with a Father’s love; he watches with a Father’s care; he reproves with a Father’s tenderness; he punishes with a Father’s design.

God is the Father of all men; and, therefore, he cannot make mankind endlessly miserable.

I know pulling verses out of their context to get a new meaning is part and parcel of your religion, but if you read Mal. 2 The prophet was talking to Israel about Israel, not the world.

Context matters.
 
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ClementofA

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And if you read the context-it is suffering imposed in this life that is being referred to!

This translation refers to "forever". In what dictionary does that refer only to "this life"?

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.


213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
 
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FineLinen

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And you forget that at the time of this writing the doctrine of eternal punishment was only beginning to be revealed by God!

What a wonderful god you have made. Where oh where do you come up with such silly?
 
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ClementofA

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And you forget that at the time of this writing the doctrine of eternal punishment was only beginning to be revealed by God!

No such animal exists, so there's nothing forgotten.

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
This translation refers to "forever". In what dictionary does that refer only to "this life"?
31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.
In the UR play book what does "forever" mean in this verse? I thought according UR doctrine "עולם/olam" never meant "forever."
Lamentations 3:39-42
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
I don't think this verse can be used in all situations for all people.

 
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ClementofA

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Also Solomon is referring to sinful ways and evangelizes people to repent so that teh Lord may bring good again! Context again matters!

No doubt that is obvious. Yet you still haven't dealt with the passage:

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.
 
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ClementofA

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I thought according UR doctrine "עולם/olam" never meant "forever."

You've been opposing UR doctrine here for 2 decades & are still either (a) confused regarding or (b) misrepresenting this matter?


In the UR play book what does "forever" mean in this verse? I thought according UR doctrine "עולם/olam" never meant "forever."
Lamentations 3:39-42
39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
42 We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned.
I don't think this verse can be used in all situations for all people.

Do you have a point in posting those verses?

The following translation refers to "forever". In what dictionary does that refer only to "this life"? "The Lord will not cast off forever" refutes the endless punishment dogma. At least in your typically mistranslated versions like KJV, NIV, JPS, etc.

Lamentation 3:

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.

Which refutes Mt.25:46 as a "proof text" vs Universalism.

JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'

None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever.

Is it then your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated?

Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?

How can a being "never be any more" (Ezek.28:19 mistranslation above) and at the same time be tortured eternally?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
You've been opposing UR doctrine here for 2 decades & are still either (a) confused regarding or (b) misrepresenting this matter?
Do you have a point in posting those verses?
The following translation refers to "forever". In what dictionary does that refer only to "this life"? "The Lord will not cast off forever" refutes the endless punishment dogma. At least in your typically mistranslated versions like KJV, NIV, JPS, etc.
Lamentation 3:
31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.
Which refutes Mt.25:46 as a "proof text" vs Universalism.
Is it then your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated?
Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?
How can a being "never be any more" (Ezek.28:19 mistranslation above) and at the same time be tortured eternally?
Prove to me that the JPS is mistranslated. And I don't mean quote a different translation of something from an obviously biased UR translation.
The JPS and EOB are all I need to destroy all biased so-called "literal versions."
Everything you are questioning I clearly explained in my post.
 
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Der Alte

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Nice try, but don't think damnationists can rely on that defence.
It is not a defense it is a fact where there is no law there is no sin. Sin is not charged against children, infants, the mentally handicapped etc.
Romans 4:15 Romans 5:13.
 
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ClementofA

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Everything you are questioning I clearly explained in my post.


I see no answer to this question or any other in my post, just a diversion off the topic to another topic, thereby avoiding answering the questions:

JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'

None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever.

Is it then your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated?

Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?

How can a being "never be any more" (Ezek.28:19 mistranslation above) and at the same time be tortured eternally?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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FineLinen

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I know pulling verses out of their context to get a new meaning is part and parcel of your religion, but if you read Mal. 2 The prophet was talking to Israel about Israel, not the world.

Context matters.

Sure the prophet was talking to Israel, the whole broken mess of them who were constantly out of union and communion with Father.

The Hebrew = busticated.

The whole world is busticated, and to the whole world our Abba stands forever as Father.

“But now O Jehovah, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You our Potter; and all are the work of Your hand. Be not angry, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold we beseech You, we are all Your people. Your holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation”.

The Father is the “Potter” which points to creation, all creation.

May we conclude Abba is Father of all mankind by virtue of Him creating all men?

Yup!
 
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agapelove

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1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​
= = = = = = = = = =
2 Corinthians 6:16-18
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for [1] ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,[2] I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and [3] I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and [4] I will receive you,
18 And [5] will be a Father unto you, and [6] ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Corinthians 7:1
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
What promises "these promises," plural, something near not distant. See vss. 17-18, 6 promises.
Wrong, see above, plural promises not one single promise.

Acts of the apostles 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts of the apostles 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Your response addresses nothing that I have said so I will assume that you either did not read my post or have no answer.
 
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Der Alte

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Your response addresses nothing that I have said so I will assume that you either did not read my post or have no answer.
My post addressed and refuted all your points.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we confess our sins. There is no second step.
 
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agapelove

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My post addressed and refuted all your points.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we confess our sins. There is no second step.

So, no need for obedience? Or faith? Or works? Just a one time confession and we’re home bound? That sounds about as dissenting as universalism.
 
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