Can the day or hour be known?

grafted branch said:

OK, so I have a question.

Matthew 24:42 has the statement ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Verse 43 says that if someone did know in what watch the thief would come, he could prevent his house from being broken up. To me this suggests that no one is going to know the day or hour because they will anticipate and “front run” the second coming. Verse 44 then goes on to say be ready because in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

My question is this, who are these verses meant for?

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To those at the Church of Sardis He also said...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

These verses of course are meant for His Church. It's not really about knowing the very moment or date of Christ's coming, but knowing the events leading up to it.

In 1 Thessalonians 5 Apostle Paul mentioned knowing "the times and the seasons" in regard to the endtime events. He said he had no need to mention those things to those brethren because they already knew them.

The times and the seasons refers to the Signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave us leading up to His return on the "day of the Lord". This is why Paul mentioned one of the signs about the deceived saying, "Peace and safety" when the "sudden destruction" comes upon them. That Sign actually comes from the OT prophets like Isaiah. There is a section of Isaiah chapters that some scholars call 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah'. They parallel the events in Revelation.

This is also why our Lord Jesus used the idea of night watches about this. In Rev.16:15 He said he comes "as a thief". So those of His watching the Signs He gave leading up to His return will not be surprised like one who isn't on watch, and thus the thief breaks in at midnight when they don't expect it.

It's getting very, very late in the day, so to speak, and those not yet familiar with the 7 Signs our Lord Jesus gave for the end leading up to His return need to get busy in their Bible study and quit listening to men's doctrines and playing religion. Our Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse parallel with Revelation is where He gave those Signs.

grafted branch said:

I agree with your statements, and continue to study the end times. The issue I come up against is that some views have a 7 year or 3.5 year period before the day of the Lord. While the people who hold these views don’t give an actual date they do give the impression that if someone is alive during the 7 or 3.5 year period that person will be able to know the exact day.

I have not been studying these views because of this problem. What are your thoughts about the end time views that allow this?

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The only way to know the exact day is to realize that when God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem and their dead bodies left laying in the plaza, then the countdown of the resurrection and day of Christ's return is 3 and 1/2 days after their death (see Rev.11). Jesus returns on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.

The 7 years idea is from the Book of Daniel, specifically Dan.9:27. A symbolic 'week' in Dan.9 represents a period of 7 years. Thus the "one week" in Dan.9:27 represents 7 years. In the middle of it the abomination idol is to be setup. That splits the 7 years into two 1260 day period, or 3.5 years each, or the 42 months of Rev.11 & 13. It is the same as a 'time, times, and an half'. However, Jesus in Matthew 24 said He shortened the time of great tribulation. So the latter 3.5 period has been shortened.

grafted branch said:

That’s my point, if someone is alive, recognizes the 2 witnesses, and sees them die, he will know the day of Christ’s return 3 and ½ days before it happens. This is an end time view that allows for knowing the day.

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Confusion arises when people think the only Day of the Lord is His Return. That is the great Day of Almighty God; Revelation 16:14b.
Those alive at that time; WILL know that Day in advance.

The great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, Joel 2:30-31, is the Sixth Seal event, which does come unexpectedly, at least 7 + years before His Return.

DavidPT said:

What is your reasoning for Jesus not being in the loop for knowing the day and hour when He initially spoke those words, but now He is in the loop? If He can know it now, why couldn't He also know it back then?

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He said He did not know, in any case. So, yes He could have known, I would say, but He says He didn't. So, if Jesus said so, amen. Jesus would know if He knew something or not, right?

If He knows now, my opinion is this would be because our Father told Him.

But if our Father had a reason for Jesus on earth not to know, that reason might still be. Actually, there could be more than one reason > by not having our Groom know, our Father could be multi-tasking.

grafted branch said:

That’s my point, if someone is alive, recognizes the 2 witnesses, and sees them die, he will know the day of Christ’s return 3 and ½ days before it happens. This is an end time view that allows for knowing the day.

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It kind of is, but kind of isn't, simply because right now we have no way of knowing what date that is. So our Lord Jesus didn't lie that no man knows the day, i.e., the date of His coming.

grafted branch said:

Are you implying that not knowing the day or hour only applies to a specific time period and that time period can only be known by examining the book of Revelation?

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I haven't implied anything. In Rev.3 to the Church of Sardis Jesus warned to watch, lest His coming be a surprise "as a thief". Haven't you read that?

Rev 3:1-3
3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

grafted branch said:

What I’m looking for is a straight forward answer to a specific question about knowing the day or hour. I don’t want to make implications or guess at anyone’s beliefs. If you don’t have an answer or need more time to think about an explanation that’s fine. I’m not trying to disprove any end times view; I’m only trying to examine how others view this topic.

So far only 1 person @keras has said the day and hour can be known and given me a direct answer for his beliefs on this specific subject.

After the 2 witnesses die, people will know 3.5 days ahead of time when the second coming is. If you hold this belief and also believe that the day and hour can’t be known prior to it occurring, can you give me a straight forward explanation for this apparent conflict?

If you believe that the day and hour can be known, then I would like to discuss Matthew 24:36-46.

Do you believe the day and hour of Christ’s second coming can be known ahead of time?

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Nah, what you're looking for is a yes or no answer to YOUR type of question which is OUTSIDE the Scriptures. It's like asking about flowers when the subject is auto mechanics.

It is amazing to think that we are now, at the very edge of the end of this age. Soon we will experience the fulfilment of many prophesies. The ancient prophets spoke of how all the Lord’s people; Israelites of God, faithful Christians from every race, nation and language, will go to live in their heritage.
Ezekiel 37:21 ...I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35

This Second Exodus began in 1948, with the return of part of the Southern Kingdom of Judah into part of the Land. Now we are seeing the world turning against the State of Israel and the emergence of an Islamic confederation, that is busily preparing for an attack to: “erase all remembrance of them”. Then the Lord will act once again in His creation, to fulfil the rest of Psalm 83, Habakkuk 3:12-14, Revelation 6:12-17 and many other Bible passages. This clearance of the “evil neighbors” as described in Jeremiah 12:14-17, will allow every faithful Christian Israelite of God, Galatians 3:26-29 to join the remnant of their brethren in all of the holy Land.

When will this happen? Just this question causes some Christians to quickly say; But of that Day and hour no man knows.” Those who seek clues from the Word are often criticized and told to focus on evangelism, and not to be concerned when the Lord will Return. This shows their lack of Bible knowledge, as the actual Return will be known to the day, when certain events take place preceding it. It is the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, that will take the world unawares. The doubters may mention the verses that say this event will come “as a thief” . Again, those people do not read scripture carefully, as Paul says; “But you, my friends, are not in the dark, that this Day should surprise you”.

Jesus exhorted; Revelation 3:3b If you do not wake up, I will come upon you like a thief...
Jesus rebuked: Matthew 16:3 You hypocrites, you can interpret the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of your times.
Jesus will judge: Luke 3:16-17....He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork in His hand, to clear His threshing floor and gather the wheat, but the chaff, He will burn up.
Jesus promised: Luke 21:28 When all these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. John 15:15-17 I no longer call you servants, now I call you My friends, I have made known all that I have learned from My Father. You did not choose Me, but I chose you, that you would bear fruit. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in My Name. This is My command; love one another.

There are many precedents for God revealing specific times in advance.

1/ He gave Noah the exact amount of time to build and load the ark, before the Flood.

2/ He told Abraham that the Israelites would be in Egypt for 400 years.

3/ He revealed the exact day of Elijah’s rapture.

4/ Jeremiah prophesied the 70 year time for the Babylonian exile.

5/ Daniel told exactly when the Messiah would come the first time.

6/ Now, Ezekiel 4:4-6, with the multiples as given in Leviticus 26, gives us the dates for the events of our time.

To leave us without clues now would be contrary to God’s established pattern. Obviously we are not “in the dark “, there are many signs. Let us be watchful, doing our Masters work and ready to heed His call and to receive our inheritance.

grafted branch said:

I think it’s best we end the conversation here.

Your unwillingness to answer the question has revealed why I have been using it as a litmus test in the first place.

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You mean you're finished with your absolutism silliness? Oh goodie!

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or
dates the Father has set by his own authority.

The Word of God.

Dorothy Mae said:

So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or
dates the Father has set by his own authority.

The Word of God.

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I'd be interesting in your interpretation of the Revelation 11:3-18 Scripture.

grafted branch said:

Matthew 24:36 makes the statement that no man knows the day or hour. Some views of the end times create a situation where people will be able to calculate out the day of the Lord/second coming described in Matthew 24:30.

When the final week or seven in Daniel 9:27 is placed in the future, people on earth at this time will be able to calculate the date of Christ’s coming by adding 7 years to the date that the covenant was signed. If Matthew 24:22 is used to make the assertion that the days are shortened and therefore no one will be able to determine with any accuracy the date, then the full 70 weeks that are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city in Daniel 9:24 will not be fulfilled.

After the 2 witnesses are killed 3.5 days later they stand on their feet, followed by the seventh trumpet. This may also create the issue of people being able to know the day or hour if it’s viewed as happening in the future.

I’m not promoting any particular end time view but I do believe that no one will be able to know the day or hour prior to Christ’s coming. I have been using Matthew 24:36 as a litmus test for deciding which end time views I should study further. However I want to re-examine my view on this and would like to get input on whether the day and hour can be known.

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No , So stop wondering!

Davy said:

I'd be interesting in your interpretation of the Revelation 11:3-18 Scripture.

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That was written to those who would have been living in Jerusalem during the time of its judgement. It was a testimony to them and was not pertinent to the Christians who left town before that time. God gives word to his of what is to come when it is about to come and they need to take real steps in their lives to avoid something (like leave town when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies which had a practical meaning.) If we are not involved in the matter, then it is not for us to try to know what does not pertain to us. That is what he was telling the disciples who actually at that time did not understand his plan fully but thought he would establish a kingdom and rule the world from the city of Jerusalem. That was not his plan. It has never been his plan.

grafted branch said:

I agree the answer is no. I’m reexamining this because there are quite a few people on this forum (maybe 1/3 or more?) that believe there will be either a 3.5 or 7 year tribulation then an immediate second coming of Christ.

The one view that was clearly given I’m examining and studying now. That view is that the second coming won’t be known, but a third coming will be known.

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If you want to study something beneficial, study how the fall of Jerusalem and the events before fulfilled Matthew 24, the first question Jesus answered. It is thrilling.