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Featured Can the day or hour be known?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by grafted branch, Apr 21, 2020.

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    4.2%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    95.8%
  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What our Lord Jesus warned in Luke 21 when the armies surround Jerusalem, and those being the days of vengeance, was not history. Jesus also told those us in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem at that time. And what are some preachers preaching today? They are preaching there will be safety in Jerusalem in our near future! Boy, the deceptions today are just pilling up.
     
  2. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    The events in 70AD were not the bodily return of Jesus. It was his judgement or “coming” in that sense which is referred to as “coming” as well. In Revelation he warned Ephesus they if they didn’t repent he’d come. That is the coming he himself referred to with the Sanhedrin. And John didn’t know the hour nor day either even though he wrote ofthe particulsrs.
    He was sentenced to Patmos under Nero. Jesus also told John that he (john) should still travel. John was then in his 60s, quite possible. He didn’t travel in his 90s.
    Would be happy to discuss it.
     
  3. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    It certainly was. That’s exactly what happened.
    The Rapture theology is one of them.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Per Luke 4, at the start of Christ's Ministry, he went inside the temple at Jerusalem and read from Isaiah 61:1-2, and when He got to the phrase, "... and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn," He stopped reading at that point and closed the Book. He then said (what He read only) was fulfilled in their ears right then.

    The first part in green was about His 1st coming. The part in red He did not read is about His 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this present world when God's consuming fire will melt the works of man off this earth...

    Isa 61:1-2
    61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


    2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    KJV

    His 2nd coming is what these Luke 21 verses are about...

    Luke 21:20-22
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    KJV

    Even that idea, "...that all things which are written may be fulfilled", reveals that is for the last day of this present world.
     
  5. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Correct. That came 40 years later. Peter, by the way, referred to this at Pentecost..

    “I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.”
    No, it came st the end of the jewish age where consuming fire engulf the city who had to answer for all the blood shed from Abel to Zechariah and Jesus.
    No,it was the last day(s) of that age. This will not happen in the future.

    Let me ask you, if the whole world will be involved in this trouble how is fleeing Jerusalem going to help? Where is one to go? And the vast majority of Christians don’t live in Jerusalem anyway so it doesn’t pertain to them. In 70 AD it was vital that they watch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those disobedient Christians. They should have stayed where they were in Jerusalem and Judaea and been slaughtered by the Romans, rather than heeding Jesus' warning, fleeing, and surviving.

    Will God ever forgive them?
     
  7. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    I used to believe in all the horrible end of the world and rapture teaching until I learned about how the fall of Jerusalem fulfills scripture so powerfully. So much of scripture fell into place. I then wondered how I could have believed Jesus would come in a military hostile take over. Doesn’t fit the ways of God at all. Was very freeing to see these matters differently.
     
  8. grafted branch

    grafted branch Member Supporter

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    So I would like to discuss the 2 witnesses. I don’t want to focus on who they are, only the timing of their prophesying. From Revelation 11:3 they prophesy for 1,260 days. 3.5 days after they are killed they stand on their feet and a voice from heaven says “Come up hither”.

    Do you think this event is describing the “coming” that occurred in 70 AD?
     
  9. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Sure. Those witnesses were for the people living there at the time. They were witnesses to the inhabitants of God and what was happening so they were not left clueless. They are of no use to us. There are and were many servant of God who were sent to a particular people at a particular time and are of no use to anyone else. I am very sure there are some whose history never made it into the Bible. Very sure.

    That “coming” was in judgement as often is described in the Bible on other occasions. It was not intended to communicate the coming when his enemies have become a “footstool for his feet.”
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  10. grafted branch

    grafted branch Member Supporter

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    So another question; John is the one who wrote about the 2 witnesses and gave a 3.5 day period of time when they would have been dead. Surely John would have been able to identify the 2 witnesses and see when they were killed with their bodies lying in the street (it would’ve been 1,260 days after they started to prophesy). Even if the 2 witnesses didn’t pertain to John himself, he obviously did know what he wrote in Revelation 11.

    So my question is, when the 2 witnesses stood on their feet, wouldn’t John have known that exact day prior to it happening?
     
  11. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are correct that vses 36-42 are the rapture!

    Verse 30 is about the second coming! One happens quietly and people are taken and one happens visibly and Jesus sets foot back on earth.

    Remember that teh disciples had asked the Lord 3 questions and he answered them, but not in order of the asking.
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I have always found that the safest way to interpret difficult apocalyptic and symbolic scripture is to have it point to Christ, and while this may not be the full picture, Christ is definitely the best starting point.

    The 2 witnesses that stand before the Lord of the earth, harken back to zechariah 4.

    Revelation 11:4 These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth

    zechariah 4:12-14 And I questioned him further, “What are the two olive branches beside the two gold pipes from which the golden oilc pours?” “Do you not know what these are?” he inquired.
    “No, my lord,” I replied. So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing beside the Lord of all the earth.”

    The 2 witnesses point to the offices of priest/king. The 2 witness point to the Law (Moses) and prophets (Elijah). The 2 witness point to Christ's resurrection of being raised after 3 days and 3 nights in heart of the earth.

    As scripture doesn't clearly define what is what in the parable, the safest interpretation is that it points to Christ who established the office of priest/king at his first advent. It points to Christ who fulfilled the law and prophets at his first establishment. It points to Christ who was raised after being in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (3.5 days). And because of these fulfillments, the new covenant was established for the body of Christ, who also faces suffering, but has been raised up to the heavenlies because of all that Christ has done.

    ephesians 2:5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus


    But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
    Revelation 11:11-12 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 11:11-12 - English Standard Version
     
  13. grafted branch

    grafted branch Member Supporter

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    I did study to 2 witnesses some time ago and thought they could be referring to the law and the prophets which possibly John the Baptist was a type. There are many similarities between John the Baptist and the 2 witnesses.

    The 2 witnesses are clothed in sackcloth, JTB was clothed with camels hair (Mark 1:6)

    JTB is called Elias in Matthew 11:13-14.

    JTB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party. The people on earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts to one another in Revelation 11:10.

    JTB’s body could have been in the street 3.5 days (although we certainly don’t know for sure) but it was only after they heard about his death that his disciples came and got his body (Mark 8:29).

    I had thought that the 3.5 day period could have referred to Matthew 27:52-53 where the bodies come out of the graves after His resurrection. Hence the extra ½ day.

    So if you are correct about the 3.5 days referring to Christ’s resurrection, then I don’t see a conflict with Revelation 11 and knowing the day or hour.
     
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where in Scripture does antichrist sign a covenant with Israel?
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    That party was held far from Jerusalem; at the fortress of Macherus, on the Eastern side of the Dead sea.
    The peoples of the earth didn't rejoice, as they were not aware of it. No TV or twitter then!
     
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  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yes. I believe the Book of Revelation is nothing less than the eyewitness, apostolic account of the then present arrival of the Tribulation and Day of the Lord in John's Day, as the trumpet blew, For John testifies exactly that:

    Revelation 1:9-10
    9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
     
  17. grafted branch

    grafted branch Member Supporter

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    Ok, excellent verse you gave.

    Matthew 24:36 says no knows the day or hour and Revelation 1:9-10 says that John was in the spirit on the Lord’s day. I have never noticed that before, but it certainly could mean that John saw the visions on the actual day described in Matthew 24:30.

    I’m going to have to study this some more.
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Why would John have seen them? He wasn’t in the city at the time. No Christians were. They’d all have left by then.
    He wasn’t there. The prophesy wasn’t for him personally. It was for the inhabitants so they had a chance to understand and repent even if it was too late to save their own lives.

    I will tell something about those who walk in very close relationship with God. First they enjoy that intimacy because of obedience. Two, they learn much from God himself same as Moses did. In so learning, they come to know which matters they can ask of God and why and which matters it is not for them to know and why. Idle information to satisfy curiosity He doesn’t share and those who are close to Him learn not to ask as it proceeds from wrong motives.

    John would not have likely known more than he wrote on the matter as well as knowing not to ask about matters that don’t concern him. It was wrote for those who needed that information.

    I’m not saying you cannot ask. I’m saying John would not have asked.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
  19. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sign is implied, but it is Daniel 9. He confirms (strengthens or affirm) a 7 year covenant. And in the midst of that 7 years he violates the covenant.
     
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Where Daniel mention antichrist?
     
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