Womens roles in the church

LoveofTruth said:

some believers can be tossed about by every wind of doctrine and deceived and be led astray and cling to the traditions of men etc. As scripture shows in many places.

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No doubt.
And some women are faithful, Spirit filled, God loving Christians who KNOW that they have received a call from him to preach, or be ordained.
They also have the backing, permission and prayer support of male clergy who believe a) Scripture does not teach that God is against female clergy, and b) that these women have a call from him to do just that.

Strong in Him said:

Leading a church service and preaching the Gospel with the full knowledge and permission of male clergy and the men in the congregation, is not usurping or ruling over them.

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"perspective"

"Leading"?

"permission" ? Permission to obey, or permission to sin ? Perspective, Motive, Purpose, Plan ?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"Leading"?

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Yes - anyone can take a worship leaders' course and lead a service. It involves announcing hymns and Bible readings and writing/reading prayers of intercession.
The congregation are the ones worshipping/listening/praying. A leader is guiding their thoughts, not telling them how to worship or think.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

"permission" ? Permission to obey,

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The male clergy in my church, and several others, do not agree that Scripture forbids women from preaching or being ordained. So if a woman comes forward and says "I believe God may be calling me to do this", they allow, and give her permission, to test that calling - rather than saying "go away; God is not calling you."
God calls and gives authority - quite often, clergy agree with, and recognise, this.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

or permission to sin ?

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Proclaiming God's word is not a sin.
Jesus allowed the woman at the well to do it, told Mary Magdalene to do it and commanded all believers to take the Gospel into the world and be his witnesses.
In the OT, Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife and others were prophetesses and gave God's word to men.

My bible says there is no male or female in Christ Jesus.

Strong in Him said:

No doubt.
And some women are faithful, Spirit filled, God loving Christians who KNOW that they have received a call from him to preach, or be ordained.
They also have the backing, permission and prayer support of male clergy who believe a) Scripture does not teach that God is against female clergy, and b) that these women have a call from him to do just that.

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Women can pastor men if the men do not mind being treated like a child.

joshua 1 9 said:

Women can pastor men if the men do not mind being treated like a child.

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There is a endemic difficulty in the modern understanding of pastoring. Many people (pastors in particular) are fond of seeing the pastor as being a shepherd (a very biblical model) and the laity as sheep (also biblical). Thus, they conclude that only pastors have any ability or intelligence to lead the church and the laity are no more than dumb animals who, at best, merely get in the way of their leadership. The pastors have no accountability to the laity, but only to God and/or any episcopal authority above their level within their denomination.

joshua 1 9 said:

Women can pastor men if the men do not mind being treated like a child.

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Nonsense.

joshua 1 9 said:

Women can pastor men if the men do not mind being treated like a child.

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Not at all. I do not treat the men (or women) in my pastoral care like children.

I tell you what, though, some of them are amazingly good at behaving like children when it suits them!

bbbbbbb said:

There is a endemic difficulty in the modern understanding of pastoring. Many people (pastors in particular) are fond of seeing the pastor as being a shepherd (a very biblical model) and the laity as sheep (also biblical). Thus, they conclude that only pastors have any ability or intelligence to lead the church and the laity are no more than dumb animals who, at best, merely get in the way of their leadership. The pastors have no accountability to the laity, but only to God and/or any episcopal authority above their level within their denomination.

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~

Leadership has to be a shared endeavour to be effective in the church. That said, it's really important that ministers' accountability isn't to the laity in their congregation; having your "employer" be the people in your pastoral care is a complete conflict of interest.

Edited to add: I thought perhaps I should clarify that a bit. When I say we shouldn't be accountable to the laity in our congregations, I mean things like, they shouldn't be controlling my diary or how I choose to structure my working week or what I preach, that sort of thing. There are important areas of accountability; for example, codes of conduct, transparent complaints procedures, that sort of thing; without that sort of accountability you have something very, very unhealthy. But your congregation shouldn't be your "boss" in the usual sense.

Paidiske said:

having your "employer" be the people in your pastoral care is a complete conflict of interest.

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In psalm 139:16 David tells us that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. He gives us all of our gifts, talents and abilities at conception and we are to use what HE gives us to bring Him honor and glory. Satan wants to honor himself and he is looking for followers that want people to look at them and not the God that created them. Even though Jesus is the Son of God - He did not come to be served. He came to be a servant and to sacrifice Himself for others. In the same way a leader is to be a true servant. "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:11) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted"

joshua 1 9 said:

In psalm 139:16 David tells us that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. He gives us all of our gifts, talents and abilities at conception and we are to use what HE gives us to bring Him honor and glory. Satan wants to honor himself and he is looking for followers that want people to look at them and not the God that created them. Even though Jesus is the Son of God - He did not come to be served. He came to be a servant and to sacrifice Himself for others. In the same way a leader is to be a true servant. "But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:11) "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted"

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I agree with everything you've said here, but also maintain that what I said before is true. Being a servant doesn't mandate a relationship where the congregation micro-manages the minister.

bbbbbbb said:

the modern understanding of pastoring.

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How can we compare this with the Rabbi esp the Hasidic that believe their primary focus should be to teach the women what marriage and raising a family is all about. Barbra Streisand approached this in the movie Yentil where she wanted to study religion and she had to dress up like a man to do that.

Paidiske said:

Being a servant doesn't mandate a relationship where the congregation micro-manages the minister.

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Jesus is to be Lord and that is what I am looking into right now is what does it mean for Jesus to be the Lord of our life?

joshua 1 9 said:

Jesus is to be Lord and that is what I am looking into right now is what does it mean for Jesus to be the Lord of our life?

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For each person it will mean faithful obedience to what God calls us to. For the purposes of this thread, that includes women, and it includes whatever God calls us to.

Paidiske said:

For each person it will mean faithful obedience to what God calls us to. For the purposes of this thread, that includes women, and it includes whatever God calls us to.

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The difficulty seems to be in most cases determining the difference between God's calling and other people's versions of God's calling, whether on a personal level or at a larger level.

bbbbbbb said:

The difficulty seems to be in most cases determining the difference between God's calling and other people's versions of God's calling, whether on a personal level or at a larger level.

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This is true for everyone, though. All of us have those around us who have ideas about what we *should* do, that we need to sift through in discerning our vocations.

Paidiske said:

This is true for everyone, though. All of us have those around us who have ideas about what we *should* do, that we need to sift through in discerning our vocations.

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Sometimes those around us are actually correct and sometimes they are not. I was perfectly content as an eight-year-old to go with my mother's guidance regarding my future work and I never regretted it.

bbbbbbb said:

Sometimes those around us are actually correct and sometimes they are not. I was perfectly content as an eight-year-old to go with my mother's guidance regarding my future work and I never regretted it.

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Hmm. My mother gave me the (somewhat contradictory) messages that "You can be anything you want," and "You should focus on being a good mother/homemaker." Along with a good dose of guilt that, no matter how well I was doing at school, it wasn't well enough!

Now, of her two children, one is in the clergy and the other has many problems and hasn't ever managed to get his life together (drug addict, no stable employment, six children to three different mothers etc); and she regards us in some bemusement and ponders, "Was there no middle ground?"

All of us have very different experiences...

Paidiske said:

Hmm. My mother gave me the (somewhat contradictory) messages that "You can be anything you want," and "You should focus on being a good mother/homemaker." Along with a good dose of guilt that, no matter how well I was doing at school, it wasn't well enough!

Now, of her two children, one is in the clergy and the other has many problems and hasn't ever managed to get his life together (drug addict, no stable employment, six children to three different mothers etc); and she regards us in some bemusement and ponders, "Was there no middle ground?"

All of us have very different experiences...

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Indeed. My family was not unlike yours, or most others. Of three, I succeeded, my sister failed, and my brother survived.