Deliverance Gifts.

swordsman1 said:

If you don't believe she had the gift of healing then why did you use her as evidence to counter my statement that the gift of healing has ceased? See your post #21.

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I was responding to the suggestion that healing has ceased today. God worked through her to heal me instantaneously - and she didn't pray beforehand. Healing with a touch and without prayer appear to be your criteria for having the gift of healing.

swordsman1 said:

Because if someone had been gifted with the ability to heal they wouldn't need to pray for healing.

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You say that, Scripture doesn't; that is your idea.

swordsman1 said:

Yes, we need to pray to God for healing, because we don't have the ability to heal people ourselves.

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Whether healing is instant, or comes gradually, through doctors, God grants healing. There are some (and I'm not saying that you're one of them) who think that the only healing that is from God or that "counts" is miraculous, instant healing. I don't believe that s true.

swordsman1 said:

No it is not illogical. If there is no mention of Jesus having a drink of wine every time he healed then it is logical and safe to conclude he didn't do so. If Jesus did not have the power to heal but had to pray a silent prayer to the Father in order to heal someone as you suggest, then scripture would have told us that important theological detail about Christ. But it doesn't.

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Of course Jesus had the power, and the gift to heal - as do some people today.
There is no evidence that Jesus did not pray before he healed - just as there is no evidence that a person who is given the gift of healing can heal without having to "resort to prayer."
Scripture teaches that we are to do things in God's power, not our own. I doubt that trying to use the Spirit's gifts in our own power is even possible - it is the Spirit who gives the gift; if we tried to ignore, or bypass, him he could withdraw it so that it wouldn't be possible.

It is the Spirit living in us who heals, teaches etc; we are only the vessels.

swordsman1 said:

Your experience does not define doctrine. From my perspective it is just another unsubstantiated 'story'. Show me from scripture that is how prophecy operates then I might be persuaded.

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Sounds like what Thomas said when the others told him they had seen the Lord.
Its called unbelief, and the interesting thing about unbelief, it always produces fruit.

Carl Emerson said:

Explain the last sentence?

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Sorry, it wasn't as clear as intended.
The reward of unbelief is that you always get nothing back.
You start with nothing and you end with more of nothing.

Francis Drake said:

Sounds like what Thomas said when the others told him they had seen the Lord.
Its called unbelief, and the interesting thing about unbelief, it always produces fruit.

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Do I believe every fantastical unsubstantiated story I hear on the Internet. Certainly not. There are stories of people being abducted by UFO's and they swear it's true. Should I believe them also? People can be mistaken, people can exaggerate, people can lie.

An unsubstantiated story from a third party is not proof that it happened. In a Court of Law such evidence is called Hearsay. It is inadmissible in court.

It wasn't just Thomas who didn't believe the reports of the resurrection. None of the disciples believed it (read Mark 16:9-11). They were all doubting Thomas's. Only when they saw Jesus in the flesh or other hard evidence did they believe. And when Thomas also wanted verifiable proof, he got it (John 20:27). No such chance with today's charismatic hearsay.

Dave L said:

Have you compared the Apostle's signs and wonders to what passes for miracles today?

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Oh, boy. Here we go... (again)

Francis Drake said:

Sorry, it wasn't as clear as intended.
The reward of unbelief is that you always get nothing back.
You start with nothing and you end with more of nothing.

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Is that kind of like confessing that the Bible is true and then denying what it says?

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Dave L said:

When's the last time you healed an amputee or raised the dead?

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Is that your test for whether the Holy Spirit is operating or not?

Dave L said:

Either way, the Apostles raised the dead. Today's frauds cannot.

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Do you really believe that someone could not raise the dead today if God asked them to do it?

Dave L said:

Relax, God speaks through his word only.

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Since when is prophecy NOT God's word?

2 Peter 1:19-21
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

swordsman1 said:

Do I believe every fantastical unsubstantiated story I hear on the Internet. Certainly not. There are stories of people being abducted by UFO's and they swear it's true. Should I believe them also? People can be mistaken, people can exaggerate, people can lie.

An unsubstantiated story from a third party is not proof that it happened. In a Court of Law such evidence is called Hearsay. It is inadmissible in court.

It wasn't just Thomas who didn't believe the reports of the resurrection. None of the disciples believed it (read Mark 16:9-11). They were all doubting Thomas's. Only when they saw Jesus in the flesh or other hard evidence did they believe. And when Thomas also wanted verifiable proof, he got it (John 20:27). No such chance with today's charismatic hearsay.

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And there you have it. Your very own diagnosis lining up with your zero testimony of seeing nothing. And you wonder why we aren’t all falling over what you have never seen. My prayer for you, that you may, is sincere my friend.

Dave L said:

Big difference between the real and "hearsay" without a shred of documentation.

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The Apostles didn't have documentation. Yet you believe. Where was the medical evidence?

Hey you guys. Please quote who you are addressing. It's hard to tell who is answering what.

Strong in Him said:

I was responding to the suggestion that healing has ceased today. God worked through her to heal me instantaneously - and she didn't pray beforehand. Healing with a touch and without prayer appear to be your criteria for having the gift of healing.

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I never suggested that healing had ceased today. In fact I said the exact opposite. Read my first post #3 and your response to it #21.

Strong in Him said:

You say that, Scripture doesn't; that is your idea.

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Scripture does say that. The disciples were given the supernatural ability to heal. They didn't pray for healing before they healed people.

It also stands to reason that if you are given a special ability, then you don't need to pray for it.

Strong in Him said:

Whether healing is instant, or comes gradually, through doctors, God grants healing. There are some (and I'm not saying that you're one of them) who think that the only healing that is from God or that "counts" is miraculous, instant healing. I don't believe that s true.

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I agree.

Strong in Him said:

Of course Jesus had the power, and the gift to heal - as do some people today.
There is no evidence that Jesus did not pray before he healed - just as there is no evidence that a person who is given the gift of healing can heal without having to "resort to prayer."

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We're back to the argument from silence again. Pure speculation. If Jesus prayed to the Father for healing before he healed, we would be told of that important fact. We are not. Instead we are told he healed people instantly and completely by simply a command or a touch, with no sign of any prayer.

Carl Emerson said:

How do you know Jesus was not praying internally when He prayed for the sick?

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Not another one shifting the burden of proof. If you are making the suggestion that Jesus prayed silently before he healed people, then onus is upon you to prove it, not for me to prove he didn't.

Shifting of the Burden of Proof

Hillsage said:

Alex,
I too had a similar experience at McDonald's years ago. It was at a time when I was 'hearing' Him better than I am now, I'm sad to say. A local mental health agency brought two clients in to eat. He put one in a table across from me and took the other client with him to order. As this poor soul looked with blank eyes at me and I felt like the Lord told me to go cast the demon out that the devil had 'taken her mind captive' with. I knew that verse was in the book/bible/graphe (Gr). But now I was faced with acting upon His spoken WORD/rhema . And as my "willing spirit" was wrestling with my "weak flesh" I almost did. Sadly, today there are so many who have never heard the WORD/rhema of God and must lean heavily on their carnal minded understanding of the GRAPE calling it a RHEMA. May we both do better the next time my brother.

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Thank you for that encouragement. It has been 30 years, and I still regret not obeying the Lord. The poor soul could have been saved and his whole family. I spoke at their funeral and did not speak the truth about his destiny.

The only silver lining is that I was an extremely immature believe - much stronger faith with no doubt - back then, but I was in no maturity to pastor a new group.

The Lord did not rebuke me nor chastise me, though. I am so grateful that he fully knows where we are in our walk with him and loves us all the same.