Does Gods plan for our lives ever include sin?

martymonster · Sep 20, 2019

There's a very simple test you can do, to tell if something is part of God's plan or not.
Does it exist? Then yes. ...And there you have it!

Llewelyn Stevenson · Sep 20, 2019

The idea that God planned everything to be as it is, is Scripturally preposterous and very unsound reasoning.

To say that God is never frustrated at the sin of mankind ignores so much of what God says.

Take, for instance the days of Noah where it says "it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth." and he responds, "My Spirit will not always strive with man."

That sounds like frustration to me.

Was he surprised? No. Saddened, yes, but not surprised.

Why must every response to a negative thing be a knee-jerk reaction? If my car breaks down, I am not surprised, but it can be very frustrating. I can do 1 of 2 things: take it to the mechanic, or get rid of it, why should we see it any different with God?

God did not will Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, they disobeyed, and did. God was not surprised, a fault was discovered and he said, "I will fix this." And so we have Genesis 3 and continuing.

Was God always able to fix it? Of course, nothing is impossible with God.

I think Romans 1 is a good example of how God works, he responds to man's iniquity, knowing the hearts of all mankind. And so Paul writes, "He gave them over to their reprobate minds."

Did God plan, or will them to sin? No, but knowing they would not turn from it, he allowed them to have their way, only they reaped the consequence of it. In Noah's day: the flood and death; in the last day: eternal death and damnation.

There are two things we need to understand about judgement: its certainty and its nature. Know this also, the Law was not given as a saviour from sin, but to reveal it.

God warns. We should heed his warning and do his will. Not doing so is fatal.

I reiterate what I said earlier, don't sin, its fatal; and don't say, God planned for me to do this, its the devil's lie.

BBAS 64 · Sep 20, 2019

renniks said:
So, in one instance, God stops someone from sinning and that is proof that he could stop all and still have the world as we know it? Sure, God stops people from sinning everyday, I'm sure, but we are talking big picture here. And what are the reasons he stops some and not others? According to him, you have a choice whether to sin or not.

Good Day, Renniks

Yes he could stop all, but he does not so he allows some to and stops others. That pushes the question what is harmony between God's allowance and his will and his plan.

Murder is a sin.. it was God's will and doing that indeed His only Son was murdered to accomplish is redemptive will for His people. Was there any thing that Man could have done to undo that will?

Nope...

As far as this world being a testing ground, where to begin? 1 Peter 1:7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

Deuteronomy 8:2"You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Wait, Hold up! According to Calvinist theology, God put whatever is in your heart there, and not only that, he did it irresistibly.

Umm that would be your understanding of the historical Doctrine of Grace. But be sure a new heart gives us new desires... He gives us the desires of our hearts it is cause and effect objectively.

You may find this helpful in your studies:

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace

In Him,

Bill

starryshadows · Sep 20, 2019

How can you say that sin gave you these things, when it is obvious that GOD in His mercy and love for you provided for you? Sin does not produce anything good! God is the one who gives us good things as our heavenly Father.

"Do not be deceived...every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly Lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." James 1:16-17

Not only that, but God does not tempt you, and sin is the end result of temptation. Sin and evil is abhorred and hated by God. God has shown you mercy and grace by helping you and giving you good gifts.

"13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1:13-15

"O you who love the Lord, HATE EVIL! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked." 97:10

You should hate the evil and the sin that separates you from God, that is abhorrent to God and destroys your life. Love and praise GOD for what He has done for you! He loves you and He has shown His love in His mercy to you even when you were living in sin!

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

renniks · Sep 20, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Yes he could stop all, but he does not so he allows some to and stops others. That pushes the question what is harmony between God's allowance and his will and his plan.

and one reason that he stops some is prayer. There is no allowance in Calvinism... It's determinism through and through.

renniks · Sep 20, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Murder is a sin.. it was God's will and doing that indeed His only Son was murdered to accomplish is redemptive will for His people. Was there any thing that Man could have done to undo that will?

According to foreknowledge....the plan was formed. So God knew when and how men would sin...I'll probably not be online to continue this discussion. So carry on without me...

BBAS 64 · Sep 20, 2019

renniks said:
and one reason that he stops some is prayer. There is no allowance in Calvinism... It's determinism through and through.

Good Day, Renniks

Point is he stops them.

It is correctly defined in the doctrines of grace as Compatibilism.

Reformation Theology: Compatibilistic Determinism

You should really work on being honest about what others believe. The only way to do that is accurately representing what we really say so consider doing so study.

Since God Is Sovereign, How Are Humans Free?

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 · Sep 20, 2019

renniks said:
According to foreknowledge....the plan was formed. So God knew when and how men would sin...I'll probably not be online to continue this discussion. So carry on without me...

Good Day, Renniks

his Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

YLT - this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified--ye did slay;

It was foreknown (verb), because it was his Definite plan given out and thus his will. They could do no other they served their creators purpose created by Him and for Him.

In Him,

Bill

timothyu · Sep 20, 2019

People train cats and dogs to be more human friendly. Yet if the animals scratches or nips now and then they don't abandon them, they have faith the flesh will not return to feral. So it is with God and man. He wasn't oblivious to what would happen if He mixed His spirit with flesh. Our animal instincts are part of who we are. Until we can learn to control them, we are of little use to the spirit of God.

Just as a pet needs to be trained young, a child needs to be taught young in the ways of God rather than of man.

martymonster · Sep 20, 2019

Here you go, scriptural proof that evil is part of God's plan.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Neostarwcc · Sep 21, 2019

Sorry guys! I'm swamped these days and dont have time to reply to everyone messaging me and replying to my threads! I'll try to get some free time tomorrow morning to keep up with this thread because km really curious what everyone's replies are! Thanks for being patient with me anyway!

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

starryshadows said:
How can you say that sin gave you these things, when it is obvious that GOD in His mercy and love for you provided for you? Sin does not produce anything good! God is the one who gives us good things as our heavenly Father.

"Do not be deceived...every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly Lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." James 1:16-17

Not only that, but God does not tempt you, and sin is the end result of temptation. Sin and evil is abhorred and hated by God. God has shown you mercy and grace by helping you and giving you good gifts.

"13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1:13-15

"O you who love the Lord, HATE EVIL! He preserves the lives of his saints; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked." 97:10

You should hate the evil and the sin that separates you from God, that is abhorrent to God and destroys your life. Love and praise GOD for what He has done for you! He loves you and He has shown His love in His mercy to you even when you were living in sin!

"8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

While it is true that God gave me these things and abilities they still were sins to begin with. It is a sin to play video games (especially the 32+ hour grinds that I used to do. Thank God I became schizo-affective and can't do that anymore) that's one talent that God gave to me but, it's definitely a sin. Especially the video games that I actually play. Like I said in the second to last paragraph in post #20 my entire meeting of my wife was built around sin, yet if I didn't sin I never would have met her. If I didn't sin I never would have established the basic life and lifestyle that we have today. So if I continue doing these things and doing everything else I'm technically "living in sin". I don't do it because the day of Christ is long coming I just do it because I'm a sinner and I cannot stop and I would feel EXTREMELY lost if I didn't sin.

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

martymonster said:
There's a very simple test you can do, to tell if something is part of God's plan or not.
Does it exist? Then yes. ...And there you have it!

What do you mean?

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

martymonster said:
Here you go, scriptural proof that evil is part of God's plan.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

I think I understand that. If it weren't for me being addicted to this one particular game I probably never would have become a Christian. He kind of introduced me to Christianity when I was about 25. Two years later I ended up converting. While this particular video game is clearly sinful God used it and uses it to bring people to him.

martymonster · Sep 22, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
What do you mean?

What I mean is, there is nothing that can happen outside of God's will. The idea that it can, is a human idea, but not one supported by scripture. God is sovereign.

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

dqhall said:
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I think it is a Bible verse. One should not boast of sin.

Obese people have a higher risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. My uncle managed an auto parts company in Indiana. He was a Korean War veteran. He used to like to watch Indiana University basketball. He liked to eat thick steaks in restaurants. He turned 65 and moved to Florida with his wife to retire. In his first year there he was playing tennis and dropped dead of heart attack on the tennis court. Gluttony was a great deal of fun, but it cut short a man’s life. I never heard him brag about all sin had provided for him.

Two high school couples were on a double date Saturday night in an affluent DC suburb. They were seniors. The drinking age was 18. They were drinking. The driver was intoxicated. He lost control of the vehicle. There was an auto accident that night. A high school senior did not make it to graduation.

Wrong turns do not always lead to paradise.

Yes it is, Paul said it in Romans 3:23. Judging by your last sentence are you saying making a wrong turn could result in loss of salvation?

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

FutureAndAHope said:
The bible says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one".

God's perfect plan for all people is to have a life with a little sin as possible. Sure sin occurs, and as another poster said, all things work together for the good of those who love God.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

But it is not God's plan for there to be sin in peoples lives.

Where I think people get it wrong however, is to become Pharisaical, and class every tiny thing as a sin. To the degree they have no life at all. Where as the bible tells us:

Ecc 7:16-18 Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time? It is good that you should take hold of this, and from that withhold not your hand, for the one who fears God shall come out from both of them.

This verse would suggest there is a measure of sin that God allows. As an example it may be watching a movie with magic in it, technically magic is a sin, but a movie may not be. It may be playing a computer game with mild violence, technically violence is a sin, but playing a game may not be.

It is not getting so hung up on the technicality of the word, that we destroy our lives. The key is "the one who fears God shall come out from both of them". As we fear and respect God, he clearly shows us what is sin, and what is not.

Oh no I'm not saying I'm tempted by these things. I know that temptation does NOT come from God. Everytime that I've been tempted has DEFINITELY come from the devil. Just that I feel lead into the direction of sin. Maybe for God's purposes and to lead people to Christ? That, I don't know. But, take my meeting of my wife for example. Had I not logged onto such a sinful and heretical website, I never would have met her. Had I never done the sinful things that I later ended up doing with her, we never would have ended up together the way God planned. Just... stuff like that. So naturally, God MUST lead us into sin for his purposes, right?

martymonster · Sep 22, 2019

Neostarwcc said:
I think I understand that. If it weren't for me being addicted to this one particular game I probably never would have become a Christian. He kind of introduced me to Christianity when I was about 25. Two years later I ended up converting. While this particular video game is clearly sinful God used it and uses it to bring people to him.

Bingo! Nothing happens by accident, and I for one am very thankful for that.
Everything that God does is for out ultimate good, not our immediate happiness.
Just like a child would be happy with a bowl of ice-cream for dinner, any good parents will force their child to eat a decent meal, even at the expense of their immediate happiness. ...And I submit that God is bigger and better than any human parent.

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

martymonster said:
What I mean is, there is nothing that can happen outside of God's will. The idea that it can, is a human idea, but not one supported by scripture. God is sovereign.

That's amazing! I've actually never heard that doctrine before. What scriptures support it? I'm curious.

Neostarwcc · Sep 22, 2019

PaulCyp1 said:
If sin never produced favorable results, no-one would do it.

I guess I disagree. We all sin because we are all under Adam and Eve's curse. So even if it didn't produce favorable results we still would do it because, by nature we are sinners until God changes our nature.

Does Gods plan for our lives ever include sin?

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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