Should I worry more about Hell?

I know that this thread is a little stale, but there is a book on Amazon called "How Satan Deceives People" from the writings of Elder Cleopa. Read it. Its 17 pages, and will put things in perspective.

David Cabrera said:

Thanks, can you give me a little preview?

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Here ya go.
Note: not Elder Cleopas but someone from the same country and same time period: father Dumitru Stăniloae.

JohnTh said:

Here ya go.
Note: not Elder Cleopas but someone from the same country and same time period: father Dumitru Stăniloae.

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and just a sidebar, but Fr Staniloae was one of the best theologians of the 20th century.

JohnTh said:

Here ya go.
Note: not Elder Cleopas but someone from the same country and same time period: father Dumitru Stăniloae.

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I'm a bit confused by that article... It seems at first like it's saying "spiritual fathers are sinful, listen to them anyway" and then it sounds like it's saying "your spiritual father can make mistakes in guidance, don't always listen". (Obviously I'm paraphrasing) Can you explain a bit more?

ArmyMatt said:

hell is not so much a place to go to as it is a condition of the soul experiencing the fire of God's presence. it's the shed Blood of Christ that makes hell, hell.

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Well put.

AMM said:

I'm a bit confused by that article... It seems at first like it's saying "spiritual fathers are sinful, listen to them anyway"

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Yes - we listen to them not because they are perfect but because we need „to escape from the hell of my mind’s relativity.” (quote from the article)

AMM said:

and then it sounds like it's saying "your spiritual father can make mistakes in guidance, don't always listen". (Obviously I'm paraphrasing)

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Where?

JohnTh said:

Yes - we listen to them not because they are perfect but because we need „to escape from the hell of my mind’s relativity.” (quote from the article)



Where?

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"Never, ever trust something because a part of it seems good. Never, ever trust a source because that source sometimes says things which seem good.

We must have attention and discrimination in everything."

AMM said:

Never, ever trust a source because that source sometimes says things which seem good.

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AHa! I see.

Of course. When your SF says something about sins & penances then you must obey because then he is not „a source” - then he is an institution. The institution of God.

However, if your confessor says something about politics, computers, photography and many other stuff (except, of course when the sin is involved in these domains) then you should use discrimination.

JohnTh said:

AHa! I see.

Of course. When your SF says something about sins & penances then you must obey because then he is not „a source” - then he is an institution. The institution of God.

However, if your confessor says something about politics, computers, photography and many other stuff (except, of course when the sin is involved in these domains) then you should use discrimination.

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Interesting. Does that mean that a spiritual father is always right in those cases? Like the Catholic "infallibility in matters of doctrine and morals"? Or can he err?

AMM said:

Interesting. Does that mean that a spiritual father is always right in those cases? Like the Catholic "infallibility in matters of doctrine and morals"? Or can he err?

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yes, a spiritual father can err. no one is infallible like how Rome views the Pope.

ArmyMatt said:

yes, a spiritual father can err. no one is infallible like how Rome views the Pope.

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do you still have to obey?

AMM said:

do you still have to obey?

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Yes, if it isn't frontally against the dogmatic teaching of the Church.
Also this disobedience must be validated by the consenus of the fathers. So, in 99,99999% of cases we must obey. God is so powerful that even if your SF will make a mistake and he will be responsible for that, you will be ok because of your obedience.

This applies in the world to spiritual matters as I said. For monastics, this applies in everything and it is the main source of their holiness (the ones which keep it, of course).

AMM said:

do you still have to obey?

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if it's not heresy or sinful, yes.

What if someone is very young and immature (spiritually speaking) - like myself, only been chrismated less than a year - and the spiritual father advises them to do something sinful or teaches them something heretical, and the neophyte doesn’t realize it is bad?

What should be the relationship between conscience and obedience?

conscience is often the Holy Spirit in you, and your obedience to Him comes first.

but this is also why we should all read the Fathers, pray, and attend the services. that aides us discerning when these questions arise.

ArmyMatt said:

yep, fear of hell is the most base and the lowest of the paths to heaven, but it does work.

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Definitely asking this next question for my own struggles.

Is that enough though? Is fear of damnation really enough to attain heaven (while knowing none of us can ever be sure)? It doesn't seem like that is really what Christ is calling us to do. I certainly understand that the fear of Hell is supposed to push us to live rightly and to seek the narrow path.

This has been nagging at me lately as I continue to fall short.

How does one leverage this fear as a tool for change? Never simple.

ArseniusTheSilent said:

Definitely asking this next question for my own struggles.

Is that enough though? Is fear of damnation really enough to attain heaven (while knowing none of us can ever be sure)? It doesn't seem like that is really what Christ is calling us to do. I certainly understand that the fear of Hell is supposed to push us to live rightly and to seek the narrow path.

This has been nagging at me lately as I continue to fall short.

How does one leverage this fear as a tool for change? Never simple.

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it is enough, yes. many souls will be saved because they feared hell. not the ideal, but it works.

ArseniusTheSilent said:

Definitely asking this next question for my own struggles.

Is that enough though? Is fear of damnation really enough to attain heaven (while knowing none of us can ever be sure)? It doesn't seem like that is really what Christ is calling us to do. I certainly understand that the fear of Hell is supposed to push us to live rightly and to seek the narrow path.

This has been nagging at me lately as I continue to fall short.

How does one leverage this fear as a tool for change? Never simple.

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To get Thomistic on you ( ), fear repels and love attracts. In that way you can think of them like the two poles of a magnet. Attraction is always primary. God draws us to himself.

Now we rightly fear things that hinder God's "drawing." But even that fear is based on a deeper love, the love of God expressed in the love for his Son: Jesus Christ, his mother: Mary, the saints, our neighbor, and even creation. We only fear because we love, and perfect love casts out all fear.

Yet some fear does seem to remain, at least as far as I can see. We still fear ourselves and others to the extent that we are all capable of sin, and we still fear God insofar as we only see him dimly. In the end we trust in God and his promises, and faith and hope lead us to a deeper love.