The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus also has to be acknowledged by Jerusalem and the Jews as the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Earlier in the passover week, Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding the donkey. Hailed by his followers as the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord.

John 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

________________________________________________________________________

John 5:
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

That person will be the prince who shall come (from the people who destroyed the temple and city), in Daniel 9:26, the end times little horn, Daniel 7-8, who will be anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against (Anti) Jesus the Christ, the rightful King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord.
___________________________________________________
jgr,

The person will also be descended from David, but is likened to as being an abominable branch, Isaiah 14:19-20.

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Douggg,

Daniel 9:25 reads:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince...

Marilyn C · Sep 2, 2019

jgr said:
Hi Marilyn,

There is nothing in the Scriptural definition of atonement that includes "avenging & vengeance" or "outing of the enemies".

Here's what God says:

Romans 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We who have received Christ (Paul, a Jew, includes himself) have received His atonement.

So has every Jew and Gentile who has received Him.

Nothing to do with "avenging & vengeance" or "outing of the enemies".

Hi jgr,

Now you really need to realise that God`s word is NOT all about us, but for us to read of Christ, His character and His purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. So let`s look a bit closer at the Lord`s atonement for Israel.

`...those vinedressers said among themselves, "This is the Heir. Come let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours." And they took Him and killed Him and cast Him our of the vineyard.

Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to have.` (Mark 12: 7 -9)

There we see in a parable that the Lord is killed and then vengeance upon His enemies. They will be destroyed and the inheritance given to Israel.

In Revelation 8 we see the actual enactment of the `Day of Atonement,` the time for Israel`s atonement. The heavenly messenger, the Heavenly High Priest, is at the incense altar with the blood from the brazen altar outside, and the fire. These are thrown to the earth as punishment to His enemies.

`Then another angel, (messenger) having a golden censor, came and stood at the altar. And he was given much incense,.....then the angel took the censor, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake......hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth..` (Rev. 8: 3 - 7)

The Lord Himself said he desired this. `I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled.` (Luke 12: 49)

Atonement involves more than just paying the price, but also dealing with the usurpers! Can`t do one with out the other.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Sep 2, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Either you are confused, or the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused in the passage found below.

Notice the word "now" in the passage.
Also notice that the author quoted word-for-word the Old Testament promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (Written in the present tense during the first century.)
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.

Hi BABerean,

Yes how wonderful that the new covenant in Christ is a present reality for us NOW, and someday soon it will also be a present reality for the nation of Israel. As God says - the days are COMING....

Your quote says it all -

"BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

This has yet to be fulfilled for the nation of Israel - the house of Israel and Judah, as quoted.

Marilyn.

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi jgr,

Now you really need to realise that God`s word is NOT all about us, but for us to read of Christ, His character and His purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. So let`s look a bit closer at the Lord`s atonement for Israel.

`...those vinedressers said among themselves, "This is the Heir. Come let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours." And they took Him and killed Him and cast Him our of the vineyard.

Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to have.` (Mark 12: 7 -9)

There we see in a parable that the Lord is killed and then vengeance upon His enemies. They will be destroyed and the inheritance given to Israel.

In Revelation 8 we see the actual enactment of the `Day of Atonement,` the time for Israel`s atonement. The heavenly messenger, the Heavenly High Priest, is at the incense altar with the blood from the brazen altar outside, and the fire. These are thrown to the earth as punishment to His enemies.

`Then another angel, (messenger) having a golden censor, came and stood at the altar. And he was given much incense,.....then the angel took the censor, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake......hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth..` (Rev. 8: 3 - 7)

The Lord Himself said he desired this. `I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled.` (Luke 12: 49)

Atonement involves more than just paying the price, but also dealing with the usurpers! Can`t do one with out the other.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Here is the Hebrew definition of atonement.

Here is the Greek definition of atonement.

Can you find the words vengeance or punishment in either one?

Douggg · Sep 2, 2019

jgr said:
Douggg,

Daniel 9:25 reads:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince...

I was never disputing that part.

restore and build Jerusalem before Messiah the Prince.

differently, after Messiah the Prince is cutollf, Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed by the people of the prince who shall come.

Jerusalem restored and built > Messiah the Prince > Messiah the Prince cutoff > Jerusalem and the temple destroyed> the prince who shall come>confirms the covenant for 7 years.

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Marilyn C said:
There we see in a parable that the Lord is killed and then vengeance upon His enemies. They will be destroyed and the inheritance given to Israel.

The enemies were the chief priests and Pharisees, representatives of Israel.
They would have been rejoicing if they believed that the inheritance would be given to Israel.
Instead, they would have seized Jesus had they been able.
They understood that the kingdom would be taken from Israel and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof.
That nation is none other than the Church of God (1 Peter 2:9)

Matthew 21
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Douggg said:
I was never disputing that part.

restore and build Jerusalem before Messiah the Prince.

differently, after Messiah the Prince is cutollf, Jerusalem and the temple are destroyed by the people of the prince who shall come.

Jerusalem restored and built > Messiah the Prince > Messiah the Prince cutoff > Jerusalem and the temple destroyed> the prince who shall come>confirms the covenant for 7 years.

The prince who shall come is the prince who did come who is Messiah who is the only individual identified as a prince in the passage.

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi BABerean,

Yes how wonderful that the new covenant in Christ is a present reality for us NOW, and someday soon it will also be a present reality for the nation of Israel. As God says - the days are COMING....

Your quote says it all -

"BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

This has yet to be fulfilled for the nation of Israel - the house of Israel and Judah, as quoted.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

You seem to have overlooked this part of Brother BAB2's post as it applies to Israel, so I'll repeat it:

Notice the word "now" in the passage.
Also notice that the author quoted word-for-word the Old Testament promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. (Written in the present tense during the first century.)

Douggg · Sep 2, 2019

jgr said:
The prince who shall come is the prince who did come who is Messiah who is the only individual identified as a prince in the passage.

Jesus came from Israel, unto us a child is born, unto us a son is borne. Jesus was not a Roman citizen.

Israel is not the Romans, Israel did not destroy the city and temple, and send the Jews captive into the nations.

Messiah the Prince cannot be the prince who shall come.

BABerean2 · Sep 2, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi BABerean,

Yes how wonderful that the new covenant in Christ is a present reality for us NOW, and someday soon it will also be a present reality for the nation of Israel. As God says - the days are COMING....

Your quote says it all -

"BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

This has yet to be fulfilled for the nation of Israel - the house of Israel and Judah, as quoted.

Marilyn.

What does it mean when an author of the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, and uses the word "now" in the passage?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

Dave L · Sep 2, 2019

Can anyone prove from scripture using direct quotes a gap of thousands of years exists between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks? Without direct quotes, doesn't this become a false prophecy?

jgr · Sep 2, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus came from Israel, unto us a child is born, unto us a son is borne. Jesus was not a Roman citizen.

But He has always been a prince.

Douggg said:
Israel is not the Romans, Israel did not destroy the city and temple, and send the Jews captive into the nations.

Jews disagree.

Douggg said:
Messiah the Prince cannot be the prince who shall come.

Daniel disagrees.

Marilyn C · Sep 3, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What does it mean when an author of the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, and uses the word "now" in the passage?

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Hi BABerean,

Firstly we need to understand what God said when He said those words in Jer.31: 31. Taking in the context of Jer. 30 & 31 we see that the Lord is speaking of Israel in the Millennium.

`And they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king whom I will raise up for them.....

At the same time, says the Lord, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people...Yes I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you and you shall be rebuilt O virgin daughter of Israel!.....

Sing...and shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say, O Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel!.......

Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with the HOUSE OF JUDAH.......

Behold The days are coming says the Lord that the city shall be built....It shall not be plucked up or thrown down any more for ever!` (Jer.30: 9, 31: 1, 3 & 4, 7, 31, 38 & 40)

So then why did the writer to the Hebrews quote that? It was to reveal that the Lord is the Mediator of this new covenant. And for the believers, (Jews & Gentiles) there is Christ the Mediator who intercedes for them. And then also the nation of Israel, (the remnant) will receive the blessings from Christ when He restores them as a nation and restores their land back to them in the millennium.

Christ`s Mediatorship is not limited to us!

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Sep 3, 2019

jgr said:
Hi Marilyn,

Here is the Hebrew definition of atonement.

Here is the Greek definition of atonement.

Can you find the words vengeance or punishment in either one?

Hi jgr,

Thank you for those definitions, and here is part of that.

Hebrew
b. with God as subject, with accusative of person, cover, i.e. treat as covered, view propitiously,

- Yahweh's land Deuteronomy 32:43 (song); לְ
- person Deuteronomy 21:8 (bloodguiltiness flows away in the stream),

Deut. 32: 43
`Rejoice O Gentiles, with His people, For He will avenge the blood of His servants, and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will atone for HIS LAND AND HIS PEOPLE.`

Thus we see that God is saying what He will atone for - His land & His people. And that is what your link has told us.

Marilyn.

BABerean2 · Sep 3, 2019

Marilyn C said:
Hi BABerean,

Firstly we need to understand what God said when He said those words in Jer.31: 31. Taking in the context of Jer. 30 & 31 we see that the Lord is speaking of Israel in the Millennium.

`And they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king whom I will raise up for them.....

At the same time, says the Lord, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people...Yes I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you. Again I will build you and you shall be rebuilt O virgin daughter of Israel!.....

Sing...and shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say, O Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel!.......

Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with the HOUSE OF JUDAH.......

Behold The days are coming says the Lord that the city shall be built....It shall not be plucked up or thrown down any more for ever!` (Jer.30: 9, 31: 1, 3 & 4, 7, 31, 38 & 40)

So then why did the writer to the Hebrews quote that? It was to reveal that the Lord is the Mediator of this new covenant. And for the believers, (Jews & Gentiles) there is Christ the Mediator who intercedes for them. And then also the nation of Israel, (the remnant) will receive the blessings from Christ when He restores them as a nation and restores their land back to them in the millennium.

Christ`s Mediatorship is not limited to us!

Marilyn.

Why would you think the word "now" found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, applies to a future time?
Do the rules of the English language bend to fit the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?

The land promise is found below.
It is not on this rotten, sin-cursed, world.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Your viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20 falls apart in the video below.

There is only one people of God in the words of Christ found below.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

.

Douggg · Sep 3, 2019

@jgr

The history and prophecy was that Jerusalem and the Jews rejected Jesus, and Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed by the Romans. The prince who shall come is of those people, the Romans, the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7.

Matthew 23:
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Ezekiel 39:
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Marilyn C · Sep 3, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Why would you think the word "now" found in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, applies to a future time?
Do the rules of the English language bend to fit the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology?

The land promise is found below.
It is not on this rotten, sin-cursed, world.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

There is only one people of God in the words of Christ found below.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

.

Hi BABerean,

And at that time, the New heavens and New Earth there will be nations ON the earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

So who are they?

Also that time is a far cry from NOW, but in the New heavens and New Earth.

Marilyn.

Douggg · Sep 3, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What does it mean when an author of the New Testament quotes from the Old Testament, and uses the word "now" in the passage?

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

BaB2, go to your video minute 5:29 and Dr. Kelly Varner says the only place a person can get 7 years in the bible is in Daniel 9 is wrong. Confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years. The many is the assembly of the nation of Israel, just as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

BABerean2 · Sep 3, 2019

Douggg said:
BaB2, go to your video minute 5:29 and Dr. Kelly Varner says the only place a person can get 7 years in the bible is in Daniel 9 is wrong. Confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years. The many is the assembly of the nation of Israel, just as Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The Sinai Covenant was "read" every 7 years, because most of the people at that time did not read.
They had to hear it.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel of the New Covenant was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Do you think the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?
The covenant with the many is also found in the verse below.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

.

BABerean2 · Sep 3, 2019

Marilyn C said:
And at that time, the New heavens and New Earth there will be nations ON the earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
Total KJV occurrences: 164

Since this earth will be "burned up" and "dissolved", according to Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:10-13, there will be no nations on this world.

There will be people from every tribe, and every nation, in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Did Jesus say there will be one flock in John 10:16?

.

The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

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Pre-tribulation.

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