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So a person with a penis saying they are actually a woman causes harm because it will upset people who can't deal with that concept?

That's a terrible argument. Reality is not obliged to be mindful of how religious people want it to be.

In any case, far greater harm is done to the trans person who is demeaned and treated like garbage by the people who don't know how to deal with things. But that doesn't count for anything, does it?

Reality doesn't have any obligations to any of us.

When we talk about the psychology of transgender people I can't help asking myself basic questions about how much of identity and gender are social constructs to the point that I find it questionable that anyone could possibly really distill what it is to be or feel like a man or woman. It's an idea. Maybe with some basis in physiology, but still gender is an idea, and identification as a gender is also just an idea.

We should be mindful of how people shape their identities and how fragile human beings truly are. The religious person and the transsexual should be talking with one another about what they have in common.

I'm also not excusing any behavior just explaining it. It helps when we all know what we're talking about.

Harming others because they bruise your ego a bit is what I would call bad behavior in case you misunderstood me. Something to be avoided.
 
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com7fy8

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Are you saying that no one ever feels like God (not Jesus) loves them?
You mean besides Jesus? There is no other, but God through Jesus, for salvation and love which is the best love. God is the best, and He shares through Christ.

But it is possible for God to have non-Christians feel comfort somehow, at times. But in order to get into more and more consistent sharing with God, we need to trust in Jesus for this. It is a family thing > Father and Son and Holy Spirit and us as family.

So, God's love might at times bless an unbeliever > in my opinion > but one needs to become all-loving and family with God, in order to get really into all the good of this. Any of us can miss out by being too interested in impersonal things like pleasure and control, so we are not in personal love with God. So, we need to be personally caring for any and all people, so we are in God's personal caring love with Him.

And this all-loving and unconditional and untiring love is almighty against fear and lusts and unforgiveness . . . more and more in us as we grow in Jesus. So, just feeling loved is not enough. And this love is gentle and quiet; so we need to say no to unquiet stuff like boredom and loneliness and frustration and how I can look down on other people. My own conceit and condemning can cancel me out of how we can be sensitively sharing with God. He is not silent, but God is quiet; so we share with Him in His quiet love.

So, people might feel God's love for a moment, without trusting in Jesus, in my opinion, but their character can keep them weak to keep giving in to pleasure drives which are dominating and dictatorial and nagging, and that same weakness for pleasure can moonlight to make them able to suffer pain.

And no pleasure I have ever felt is as nice and kind as God's love.
 
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Kylie

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You mean besides Jesus? There is no other, but God through Jesus, for salvation and love which is the best love. God is the best, and He shares through Christ.

But it is possible for God to have non-Christians feel comfort somehow, at times. But in order to get into more and more consistent sharing with God, we need to trust in Jesus for this. It is a family thing > Father and Son and Holy Spirit and us as family.

So, God's love might at times bless an unbeliever > in my opinion > but one needs to become all-loving and family with God, in order to get really into all the good of this. Any of us can miss out by being too interested in impersonal things like pleasure and control, so we are not in personal love with God. So, we need to be personally caring for any and all people, so we are in God's personal caring love with Him.

And this all-loving and unconditional and untiring love is almighty against fear and lusts and unforgiveness . . . more and more in us as we grow in Jesus. So, just feeling loved is not enough. And this love is gentle and quiet; so we need to say no to unquiet stuff like boredom and loneliness and frustration and how I can look down on other people. My own conceit and condemning can cancel me out of how we can be sensitively sharing with God. He is not silent, but God is quiet; so we share with Him in His quiet love.

So, people might feel God's love for a moment, without trusting in Jesus, in my opinion, but their character can keep them weak to keep giving in to pleasure drives which are dominating and dictatorial and nagging, and that same weakness for pleasure can moonlight to make them able to suffer pain.

And no pleasure I have ever felt is as nice and kind as God's love.

Nive story, but there's nothing here to show that it's actually God's love rather than just something you are interpreting as God's love.
 
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com7fy8

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Nive story, but there's nothing here to show that it's actually God's love rather than just something you are interpreting as God's love.
I can't prove God, but God can prove Himself. I have offered my experience and things I have gotten from the Bible.
 
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Kylie

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I can't prove God, but God can prove Himself. I have offered my experience and things I have gotten from the Bible.

And yet he remains completely silent. I've not seen anything that can only be explained by a God, even though it lists examples of how that can be shown in the Bible.
 
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com7fy8

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I can't prove God, but God can prove Himself. I have offered my experience and things I have gotten from the Bible.
And yet he remains completely silent.
Of course, I would say that the big difference here is that someone believing that the earth is flat isn't involving other people against their will. Rape by definition involves someone against their will. Rape causes demonstrable harm to people, and it is on that basis that it is not right.
It is not that He's silent, but He does not force people. Quiet and silent are not the same thing. He does not need to yell louder, to get attention.
The transgender went to the hospital was ill because of pregnancy. People got mad for the biological female not being called a male claiming that HE was pregnant.

And I'll turn that around - just because you believe one thing, doesn't mean that's true either.
And, of course, just because you don't believe something, this does not make it untrue.

If this was so important to God, then why wouldn't he make it clearer?
Again > God does not force, and we need to be quiet and humble and honest in order to get His communication. If we have our own noise going on, we can miss it . . . or be hearing Him but ignoring. Ignorance can include active ignoring. In love, we can get all which is so better, without arguing and forcing and yelling. And God isn't going to change to this world's ways, in order to get our attention.
Which is why we go looking for evidence from the real world to settle the matter.

Because (lol) what kind of fool would deny evidence from the real world to hold onto a belief that has no real-world evidence to support it?
But God is greater than this world. We need to escape how this world is dictating to us. God is better.
2. People saying men get pregnant uh no they don't that doesn't even agree with science.

3. People being okay with incest! What on Earth people!

Liberalism and feminism have kinda ruined the world.
Noise to keep our attention elsewhere. There is dictation about what we get in the news. Our wills are not honored, about what will be getting attention in the news. Why are they so busy with calling attention away from God and love??? This should be a kind of evidence, how this world can fight so hard against, instead of being able to enjoy what they have.

Whatever body you have, you can use it creatively, and love. So, why let dictatorial stuff in you drive you elsewhere? Jesus gives us "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) Yet ones keep fighting to elsewhere, in this world. Can you see how this world is not right? Animals don't do this. This might show something, some sort of evidence.
If people want to use their bodies to experience pleasure, and everyone involved is a consenting adult, what difference does it make it there's no love there? People can use their bodies however they like, as long as they don't involve others against their will.
Well, if we are talking about love which we have no problem trading in for a pleasure . . . God's love is so nicer and better for us > including we have immunity against how this world would abuse us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, why the hard push for pleasure, when we could have treasure of love which is secure and strong against all the suffering and fear? The news, for one example, is feeding fear, including fear of how you will be hated if you don't buy the idea of a man getting pregnant, among other things.

I agree, by the way, how we need to not force things on people, religiously. If I look down on gays and transgenders and despise them, this is self-righteous, not how Jesus has us loving. But people of this world can be orientated to pleasure and only or all about their own identity, but this gets noisy, when they could be satisfied in love which does not dictate for them to seek pleasure and changing themselves from what they have which can be used for good.

Ones need to not be dictatorial with their own selves, and giving in to dictatorial feelings and drives. That noisy stuff keeps us from experiencing God who is kind and quiet in us. A lot of stuff driving for pleasure is unkind, and the pleasure is the bait to fool people into thinking they are solving the problem; but by giving in to the drives, they are staying with them, to be driven again and again, another time. But Jesus does not force us around and waste us, like this.

Animals don't do this. Why? Humans are the ones who fell, and have been bringing all else down. How is it, that humans so highly developed can be so in trouble, while ants and bees and higher animals can share as family, while humans are finding ways to isolate themselves? This can show that someone invisible . . . not God . . . is involved in things, too. Satan is noisy, and there is his evil spirit > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) This evil spirit is wasting people with anger and competition and frustration and unforgiveness and lusts. Only Jesus can change us to rest and love.
 
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Kylie

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It is not that He's silent, but He does not force people. Quiet and silent are not the same thing. He does not need to yell louder, to get attention.

And yet there is no apparent difference between the world we have and a world without God.

And, of course, just because you don't believe something, this does not make it untrue.

I completely agree. That's why I look for evidence in the real world, and I go with that.

Again > God does not force, and we need to be quiet and humble and honest in order to get His communication. If we have our own noise going on, we can miss it . . . or be hearing Him but ignoring. Ignorance can include active ignoring. In love, we can get all which is so better, without arguing and forcing and yelling. And God isn't going to change to this world's ways, in order to get our attention.

But sometimes, love means stepping up and giving people a kick in the bum for their own good. Funny how God never does that.

But God is greater than this world. We need to escape how this world is dictating to us. God is better.

I disagree. God is a fictional character as far as I am concerned... The real world is the only thing we can be justified assuming is true. I don't see how we can justify concluding that evidence from the real world is wrong because it would contradict an idea about a supernatural entity.

Well, if we are talking about love which we have no problem trading in for a pleasure . . . God's love is so nicer and better for us > including we have immunity against how this world would abuse us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, why the hard push for pleasure, when we could have treasure of love which is secure and strong against all the suffering and fear? The news, for one example, is feeding fear, including fear of how you will be hated if you don't buy the idea of a man getting pregnant, among other things.

Why are love and pleasure so linked? I've had pleasure without love, and I've had loving relationships that rarely included the pleasure. It's like saying dinner and desert are linked - they can be, but you can enjoy each separately and it doesn't affect the other.
 
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Sketcher

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Once again you seem to be missing the concept that a person's reproductive system and their gender identity are two different things and may not be in agreement with each other.

Remember - a person's reproductive system is between their legs. A person's gender identity is in their head.
Their reproductive system is much more verifiable by a doctor.

(Also, how in the world do you figure that a person born with a penis whose gender identity tells them that they are a woman is harming anyone? Because I can't figure it out for the life of me.)
Depends on what they are doing. If it's a biological male competing in women's sports, it harms the biological female competitors. And sometimes it's not necessarily what most transwomen would do, but the policy that accommodates them which is harmful. Policies that allow biological men to use women's bathrooms and locker rooms makes it easier for predators to hide in plain view in such places.
 
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Kylie

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Their reproductive system is much more verifiable by a doctor.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with their gender identity, does it?

Because, like I said, their gender identity is not between their legs.

Depends on what they are doing. If it's a biological male competing in women's sports, it harms the biological female competitors. And sometimes it's not necessarily what most transwomen would do, but the policy that accommodates them which is harmful. Policies that allow biological men to use women's bathrooms and locker rooms makes it easier for predators to hide in plain view in such places.

Yes. Because we all know that predators say things like, "I would totally dress up as a woman so I can go into the lady's bathroom and have a perv, but alas, there is a law against it, so I am unable to do so."

The simple fact is that if a man is determined to go into a lady's bathroom to perv on a woman, he's gonna do it either way. And in any case, what about this?

B_0nBU9UcAARWry.jpg
 
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Kylie

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Regardless of gender or orientation, anyone with a phone (or are they cameras that communicate) out in a loo should be hauled off for questioning.

I remember the days when I had to read the back of the shampoo bottle in the loo because we didn't have phones. I'd hate to go back. And believe me, if I'm in a public loo, I'm gonna be on Facebook. Or playing games. :p
 
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Sketcher

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But that has absolutely nothing to do with their gender identity, does it?

Because, like I said, their gender identity is not between their legs.
Again, what they mentally identify as does not make them men or women.

Yes. Because we all know that predators say things like, "I would totally dress up as a woman so I can go into the lady's bathroom and have a perv, but alas, there is a law against it, so I am unable to do so."

The simple fact is that if a man is determined to go into a lady's bathroom to perv on a woman, he's gonna do it either way.
And where a man going into a woman's bathroom is less tolerated, he's going to be removed more expediently.

And in any case, what about this?

B_0nBU9UcAARWry.jpg
Seen that meme. The difference between a transman in a mens room and a transwoman in a ladies room is that the transman is taking more of a risk upon herself by going into the mens room, whereas allowing transwomen into the ladies room exposes the women and girls who use that ladies room to more risk instead.

Sexual Assault Victims on Transgender Bathroom Policies
 
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Kylie

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Again, what they mentally identify as does not make them men or women.

Yes it does.

And where a man going into a woman's bathroom is less tolerated, he's going to be removed more expediently.

I'm not aware of any time a man has attempted to pretend to be a woman so he could sneak into a womens bathroom to invade the privacy of a woman.

Seen that meme. The difference between a transman in a mens room and a transwoman in a ladies room is that the transman is taking more of a risk upon herself by going into the mens room, whereas allowing transwomen into the ladies room exposes the women and girls who use that ladies room to more risk instead.

Sexual Assault Victims on Transgender Bathroom Policies

If a transwoman goes into the ladies room to pee, what additional risk do the other women face? I mean, if I go into the ladies room to pee, what risk am I exposed to if a transwoman comes in and uses the stall next to me to pee as well?
 
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Sketcher

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Yes it does.
Nope.


I'm not aware of any time a man has attempted to pretend to be a woman so he could sneak into a womens bathroom to invade the privacy of a woman.



If a transwoman goes into the ladies room to pee, what additional risk do the other women face? I mean, if I go into the ladies room to pee, what risk am I exposed to if a transwoman comes in and uses the stall next to me to pee as well?
If that's all the transwoman is doing, that's fine. If it's a predator taking advantage of this being normalized, he can hide in plain view and be closer to women who are more vulnerable than they would otherwise be in a public space.
 
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Sparagmos

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Nope.



If that's all the transwoman is doing, that's fine. If it's a predator taking advantage of this being normalized, he can hide in plain view and be closer to women who are more vulnerable than they would otherwise be in a public space.
Except that doesn’t happen. Trans women have been using the women’s bathroom for decades. If predators wanted to disguise themselves as a woman to prey on women, it would have already been happening. Most sexual assault happens in people’s homes.
 
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Sketcher

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Except that doesn’t happen. Trans women have been using the women’s bathroom for decades. If predators wanted to disguise themselves as a woman to prey on women, it would have already been happening. Most sexual assault happens in people’s homes.
Was it as accepted then as it is today? The more accepted it is, the more of a risk it becomes.
 
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Kylie

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So you claim that it is what is between a person's legs that makes them a man or a woman?

If that's all the transwoman is doing, that's fine. If it's a predator taking advantage of this being normalized, he can hide in plain view and be closer to women who are more vulnerable than they would otherwise be in a public space.

Are you aware of any cases where a man has pretended to be a woman so he can get into the women's toilets to attack a woman?

I mean, such a law won't stop it from happening. Even now, they don't bother pretending to be a woman. Look at this guy: https://thewest.com.au/news/perth/m...-into-claremont-public-toilets-ng-b881185865z

And this guy. Manhunt after 10-year-old girl sexually assaulted in public toilets

Simply put, any man who is intent on going into a woman's bathroom to assault someone isn't going to be put off by a law that says trans women have to use the mens room.
 
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Kylie

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Was it as accepted then as it is today? The more accepted it is, the more of a risk it becomes.

Funnily enough, you still haven't explained what that risk is. So I'll ask again.

if I go into the ladies room to pee, what risk am I exposed to if a transwoman comes in and uses the stall next to me to pee as well?
 
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Sparagmos

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Was it as accepted then as it is today? The more accepted it is, the more of a risk it becomes.
There is no evidence of said risk. It’s fear mongering. Where do you think trans women were going to the bathroom before?
 
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