Backwards ideas

[Sketcher]

Yes, for most of us it is.

MOST.

It doesn't work for everyone, and so, if someone comes up to you and says that they are one of the people for whom it doesn't work, the normal decent thing to do is to accept them at their word, isn't it?

Depends on the context of the situation.

Again, you haven't been able to show that men disguising themselves as women in order to sneak into public women's toilets to assault women is even a problem.

If it were to happen tomorrow and make the news, would you want the authorities to be constrained to enable the perp, or not?

 

[Kylie]

Depends on the context of the situation.

Would you care to explain how?

In what situation is it ever appropriate to say, "I know you say you are a woman, but the fact you were born with a penis means you must actually identify as a man."

If it were to happen tomorrow and make the news, would you want the authorities to be constrained to enable the perp, or not?

Don't avoid the issue. Can you show that it is a problem or not?

And why do you think the authorities would be unable to take action without the laws proposed?

 

[Moral Orel]

Have you? Or are you imagining that they exist for the sake of a counterpoint?

You're the one saying it's dangerous. I don't know. How do you know it's dangerous, or are you just imagining it would be?

 

[Sketcher]

Would you care to explain how?

In what situation is it ever appropriate to say, "I know you say you are a woman, but the fact you were born with a penis means you must actually identify as a man."

Whether or not they identify as a man or woman is up to them. Whether they should be accommodated as a man or woman depends on circumstances. I already mentioned the primary circumstances that come to mind:

If it's a biological male competing in women's sports, it harms the biological female competitors. And sometimes it's not necessarily what most transwomen would do, but the policy that accommodates them which is harmful. Policies that allow biological men to use women's bathrooms and locker rooms makes it easier for predators to hide in plain view in such places.

Don't avoid the issue. Can you show that it is a problem or not?

And why do you think the authorities would be unable to take action without the laws proposed?

If the law protects the freedom of someone with male parts to enter a female bathroom or locker room (and we're not talking about janitors who are doing their jobs and knock first), then security personnel or police would be less likely to remove biological males who would enter such facilities to perv on or harass women. It's creating a defense for them where none existed before.

 

[Sketcher]

You're the one saying it's dangerous. I don't know. How do you know it's dangerous, or are you just imagining it would be?

What I'm talking about is grounded in human nature. If you're going to bring up a counterexample in terms of public facilities, prove that it exists first. If you can show that 1) Unisex bathroom that accommodate multiple people at once exist, and 2) that they have not had a problem with men assaulting or harassing women or girls inside them in the X years that they existed, I will take that into consideration.

 

[Kylie]

Whether or not they identify as a man or woman is up to them. Whether they should be accommodated as a man or woman depends on circumstances. I already mentioned the primary circumstances that come to mind:

Ah yes, the trans people in sport argument.

So if a person born with a penis transitions and competes with a bunch of people born with uteruses, then the penis-bearer will have an advantage. You do realise, doncha, that the penis-bearer would be taking a cocktail of hormones that pretty much eliminate the advantage they'd have? I've read several accounts from trans folks who have said that they were shocked at how much and how quickly their physical strength diminished.

If the law protects the freedom of someone with male parts to enter a female bathroom or locker room (and we're not talking about janitors who are doing their jobs and knock first), then security personnel or police would be less likely to remove biological males who would enter such facilities to perv on or harass women. It's creating a defense for them where none existed before.

But since the law NEVER protects anyone's freedom to assault someone, laws like what you're suggesting won't give any added benefit, and they will stop trans people from using public toilets.

 

[Moral Orel]

What I'm talking about is grounded in human nature.

Right, so you're just imagining there will be a problem and you haven't looked into it at all. Sometimes the things people imagine are true, I'm not telling you you'll end up being wrong, just saying you don't really know and don't have any evidence to say one way or the other, right?

If you're going to bring up a counterexample in terms of public facilities, prove that it exists first. If you can show that 1) Unisex bathroom that accommodate multiple people at once exist, and 2) that they have not had a problem with men assaulting or harassing women or girls inside them in the X years that they existed, I will take that into consideration.

Like I said, I don't know. I didn't think multi-user unisex bathrooms were weird, I guess I just took it for granted that our local mall has a multi-user "family restroom" and figured other people had seen them as well. I did try Googling it, but right now the internet is awash with new gender-neutral restrooms, and with them being new, it doesn't fit the criteria I laid out before. I guess we'll just wait and see if the liberal cities and states that implement them become rape-infested dystopias.

 

[Sketcher]

Ah yes, the trans people in sport argument.

So if a person born with a penis transitions and competes with a bunch of people born with uteruses, then the penis-bearer will have an advantage. You do realise, doncha, that the penis-bearer would be taking a cocktail of hormones that pretty much eliminate the advantage they'd have? I've read several accounts from trans folks who have said that they were shocked at how much and how quickly their physical strength diminished.

Testes, actually. And there have been many instances where that wasn't enough, they retained an unfair advantage over born-female athletes whether they wanted to or not.
But what's more than that, if you're trying to keep the sport clean of performance enhancing substances, allowing for those kinds of hormonal treatments makes that harder rather than easier.

But since the law NEVER protects anyone's freedom to assault someone, laws like what you're suggesting won't give any added benefit, and they will stop trans people from using public toilets.

So if you see a shady-looking man entering a woman's bathroom or locker room, do you think that should be reported and taken seriously by security staff/police, or not? If so, do you want the security firm or the police department to be so concerned about a lawsuit against them by men who claim to be women that they will ignore such reports?

 

[Sketcher]

Like I said, I don't know. I didn't think multi-user unisex bathrooms were weird, I guess I just took it for granted that our local mall has a multi-user "family restroom" and figured other people had seen them as well. I did try Googling it, but right now the internet is awash with new gender-neutral restrooms, and with them being new, it doesn't fit the criteria I laid out before. I guess we'll just wait and see if the liberal cities and states that implement them become rape-infested dystopias.

Well, you could have mentioned those earlier. And I would say that's likelier to be a different case because their intended use is for children who aren't big enough to go into the men's or women's rooms can be escorted by a parent. If a parent is there, that reduces the likelihood of an attack. However, when the kids get a little older, they don't need a parent anymore and are more likely to use the adult restrooms, but still are at a disadvantage when faced with an adult predator.

 

[variant]

Yeah, I've seen them. They're the size they are in order to accommodate the wheelchair. So are the biggest unisex bathrooms I have seen in public places - one occupant only, just big enough to accommodate a person, a wheelchair, a toilet, a sink, and maybe a baby changing station. Cut that in half to put another toilet in, and you don't have room for the wheelchair anymore. Increasing the overall size of the bathroom to accommodate both is an expensive construction project, and removing the handicap capacity may be a violation of federal or state law.

They put handicapped stalls in regular bathrooms you know.

Which means a unisex bathroom could just be a bunch of stalls.

 

[Sketcher]

They put handicapped stalls in regular bathrooms you know.

Which means a unisex bathroom could just be a bunch of stalls.

Theoretically.

 

[variant]

Theoretically.

So, do you see a problem with the theory? We have bathrooms like this already they're called women's bathrooms.

 

[Sketcher]

So, do you see a problem with the theory? We have bathrooms like this already they're called women's bathrooms.

Yeah, and men aren't supposed to go in them.

 

[Kylie]

Testes, actually. And there have been many instances where that wasn't enough, they retained an unfair advantage over born-female athletes whether they wanted to or not.

Citation required.

But what's more than that, if you're trying to keep the sport clean of performance enhancing substances, allowing for those kinds of hormonal treatments makes that harder rather than easier.

Yes, a mix of hormones that decreases physical ability is going to give an unfair advantage to the people taking them...

So if you see a shady-looking man entering a woman's bathroom or locker room, do you think that should be reported and taken seriously by security staff/police, or not? If so, do you want the security firm or the police department to be so concerned about a lawsuit against them by men who claim to be women that they will ignore such reports?

In what way are they shady looking? Are they behaving suspiciously? Or are you just assuming they are shady because they are trans?

 

[variant]

Yeah, and men aren't supposed to go in them.

Suppose we didn't have that particular cultural thing gong on? We could design unisex bathrooms to look like either current men's or women's bathrooms. What's the issue?

 

[Moral Orel]

Well, you could have mentioned those earlier.

I did, they're unisex, right?

And I would say that's likelier to be a different case because their intended use is for children who aren't big enough to go into the men's or women's rooms can be escorted by a parent. If a parent is there, that reduces the likelihood of an attack. However, when the kids get a little older, they don't need a parent anymore and are more likely to use the adult restrooms, but still are at a disadvantage when faced with an adult predator.

Most of those parents that take their kids in there are going to be women, the children are going to be very small, and some of them are going to be breast feeding. So I don't see how you've exempted them from the issues you've been worrying about.

If a bad dude wants to attack a woman, he can hang out in the family restroom, say his kid is in a stall, and attack when a woman comes in with her small child. Isn't that what you say would be happening if we allowed trans folk into whatever restrooms? A man has an excuse to be in a secluded place with a woman and no one to protect her or report what is going on. Right? These bathrooms should be rife with sexual assaults under your theory, shouldn't they?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Not to get off the topic of gender, but there are a lot of other backwards, antiquated, erroneous, unfit ideas in the US. Some examples:

The Electoral College
Health insurance provided by your job
For-profit health insurance in general
There is no warming trend in global temperatures
Vaccines are more harmful than beneficial
Protective tariffs are good for the economy
Large tax reductions for the very wealthy will trickle down to benefit everyone else
People choose to be homosexual

I would add,

2000 calories and, 8 glasses of water each day.
Retiring at 65.
Food deserts.
Necessity of college.
The "American Dream".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If this was so important to God, then why wouldn't he make it clearer? After all, everyone is in agreement about the molecular structure of water - two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. The fact that there's so much disagreement about how sex is meant to happen indicates that it's a subjective opinion, not objective fact.

The objective (read cold, hard) facts often rear their ugly heads later.

 

[Kylie]

The objective (read cold, hard) facts often rear their ugly heads later.

So you;ve got nothing, you're just assuming that something will happen at some point which will support your position?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So you;ve got nothing, you're just assuming that something will happen at some point which will support your position?

Bad stuff is happening all over the world (as we speak) because of not-so-smart sexual activity. Sadly in todays morally libertine society people don't often make, or admit to, the connection.