Backwards ideas

[timothyu]

You seem to be confusing physical bodies with gender identity.

Agreed. We all start out female in the womb. The amount of changes that occur in development determine the outcome including whether we get a stereotypical male'/female, or something in between. Who is to say that development isn't affected by possibly environment, by God Himself, or just as a normal variant. The outcome is still human.

 

[Sketcher]

Which is why we go looking for evidence from the real world to settle the matter.

Because (lol) what kind of fool would deny evidence from the real world to hold onto a belief that has no real-world evidence to support it?



Of course, I would say that the big difference here is that someone believing that the earth is flat isn't involving other people against their will. Rape by definition involves someone against their will. Rape causes demonstrable harm to people, and it is on that basis that it is not right.

OK then, you agree that the presence of disagreement is not an indicator that one of the disagreeing parties couldn't be right. Thank you.

So how about until such further evidence turns up, we just treat people the way they'd like to be treated? And if someone tells us that they are a man, then we accept that they are in a far better position to know than us, and we take them at their word.

If someone who calls themselves a man is pregnant, that person is not a man. That's simply an acknowledgement of reality. And when the way they'd like to be treated harms other people (more of an issue when men claim to be women than the other way around), then that doesn't mean we should humor them.

 

[Kylie]

OK then, you agree that the presence of disagreement is not an indicator that one of the disagreeing parties couldn't be right. Thank you.

Of course, it doesn't follow that it's you who's right...

If someone who calls themselves a man is pregnant, that person is not a man. That's simply an acknowledgement of reality. And when the way they'd like to be treated harms other people (more of an issue when men claim to be women than the other way around), then that doesn't mean we should humor them.

Once again you seem to be missing the concept that a person's reproductive system and their gender identity are two different things and may not be in agreement with each other.

Remember - a person's reproductive system is between their legs. A person's gender identity is in their head.

(Also, how in the world do you figure that a person born with a penis whose gender identity tells them that they are a woman is harming anyone? Because I can't figure it out for the life of me.)

 

[variant]

(Also, how in the world do you figure that a person born with a penis whose gender identity tells them that they are a woman is harming anyone? Because I can't figure it out for the life of me.)

People often feel upset at a loss of control when the way they order the world is upset or challenged.

The harm is a bruised ego.

That might seem petty but this issue is a challenge to the religious persons identity, which is also something in their head.

 

[Kylie]

People often feel upset at a loss of control when the way they order the world is upset or challenged.

The harm is a bruised ego.

That might seem petty but this issue is a challenge to the religious persons identity, which is also something in their head.

So a person with a penis saying they are actually a woman causes harm because it will upset people who can't deal with that concept?

That's a terrible argument. Reality is not obliged to be mindful of how religious people want it to be.

In any case, far greater harm is done to the trans person who is demeaned and treated like garbage by the people who don't know how to deal with things. But that doesn't count for anything, does it?

 

[JackRT]

The human body is a very complex organism. There is much that can go wrong in its development. For example, my mother was born with both thumbs but with just two fingers on one hand and a single finger on the other. There are a myriad of other physical defects or disorders some of which can be repaired.

But, when we consider the human mind, we realize that we are dealing with something that is even more complex, Due to that complexity there is even more that can go wrong both in its developmental stage but also in what we call the "operational" stage. Not realizing this, or perhaps denying this due to religious belief, there are people who claim that people who are homosexual or have an identity disorder are making evil choices or even are demonically influenced. To marginalize or persecute them is not just misguided --- it is evil.

 

[Ophiolite]

So a person with a penis saying they are actually a woman causes harm because it will upset people who can't deal with that concept?

Light Intermission: I used to think I was a male trapped in a female body. Then my mother gave birth and the feeling went away.

 

[Kylie]

Light Intermission: I used to think I was a male trapped in a female body. Then my mother gave birth and the feeling went away.

*Glares at you*

*Also laughs*

 

[com7fy8]

Light Intermission: I used to think I was a male trapped in a female body. Then my mother gave birth and the feeling went away.

got it

Usually, a body is designed for a male or female role in producing children. But there are people who want to use their bodies for other things, and then they might have a problem about if they have the right body.

So, if you want children, and if you know how to love, you can marry someone who has the other design and who also knows how to love. Because you can love anyone, if you know how to love; just make sure the other person can love, too . . . so you two can bring up your children to know how to love.

How your body is specialized is not what really matters; but if your heart is capable of loving, this is what counts.

But in case you feel your body is mainly for getting pleasure with another body which you prefer . . . "now we have a problem", because this can be wanting to use some body and not really to love someone. And whoever and whatever got you this way, I would leave behind.

And all of us have needed to start new in Jesus, and leave behind all which is so inferior.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

In Jesus our Creator, we are creative enough to use what we've got . . . for loving.

 

[Ophiolite]

But in case you feel your body is mainly for getting pleasure with another body which you prefer . . . "now we have a problem", because this can be wanting to use some body and not really to love someone.

That's an odd suggestion. I am unable to say why in detail because that would be counter to forum rules. I will simply note that this indifference to the other person can be true of any couple.

 

[Kylie]

But in case you feel your body is mainly for getting pleasure with another body which you prefer . . . "now we have a problem", because this can be wanting to use some body and not really to love someone.

If people want to use their bodies to experience pleasure, and everyone involved is a consenting adult, what difference does it make it there's no love there? People can use their bodies however they like, as long as they don't involve others against their will.

 

[timothyu]

If people want to use their bodies to experience pleasure, and everyone involved is a consenting adult, what difference does it make it there's no love there? People can use their bodies however they like, as long as they don't involve others against their will.

Is that not putting rights over responsibility?

 

[com7fy8]

But in case you feel your body is mainly for getting pleasure with another body which you prefer . . . "now we have a problem", because this can be wanting to use some body and not really to love someone. And whoever and whatever got you this way, I would leave behind.

I will simply note that this indifference to the other person can be true of any couple.

This is exactly a point I intend.

All of us can somehow be trying to use other people. So, we all have the same basic problem of sin. And Jesus is able to change any of us out of this.

But our drives for pleasure can be so dominating and dictatorial and nagging and nagging so we feel there is no way to say no. Then ones can claim: Oh I was born this way; so I can't help it.

Well, all of us were born in sin, and we all have failed to overcome our selfish stuff like God is able to do with us. Jesus can do so better and more than we can.

 

[com7fy8]

If people want to use their bodies to experience pleasure, and everyone involved is a consenting adult, what difference does it make it there's no love there? People can use their bodies however they like, as long as they don't involve others against their will.

Ones of us here . . . in Christian Forums . . . have experienced how God in His love does us so much more and better good, than we ever have gotten for ourselves with pleasure and other things. This is part of where we are coming from. Plus . . . His love feels nicer, though we do say we should not judge by feelings about how we are doing with God; but His love does feel good, with Heavenly purity and pleasant rest and caressing in our souls; Jesus says "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But weakness for pleasure can also be weakness, later, for pain.

So, we are concerned about how there is so better.

And God does not want us to be concerned only or mainly about what is good for our own selves with Him; but He desires that we care with hope for any and all others > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). We need to become all-loving so we are compatible with Jesus so we can share all eternity together.

If I get into seeking pleasure with some one person, this can be isolating.

 

[Kylie]

Is that not putting rights over responsibility?

Putting whose right to what over whose responsibility to what?

 

[Kylie]

Ones of us here . . . in Christian Forums . . . have experienced how God in His love does us so much more and better good, than we ever have gotten for ourselves with pleasure and other things. This is part of where we are coming from. Plus . . . His love feels nicer, though we do say we should not judge by feelings about how we are doing with God; but His love does feel good, with Heavenly purity and pleasant rest and caressing in our souls; Jesus says "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

But weakness for pleasure can also be weakness, later, for pain.

So, we are concerned about how there is so better.

And God does not want us to be concerned only or mainly about what is good for our own selves with Him; but He desires that we care with hope for any and all others > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). We need to become all-loving so we are compatible with Jesus so we can share all eternity together.

If I get into seeking pleasure with some one person, this can be isolating.

People of all religions claim to feel the love of their god.

 

[Ophiolite]

This is exactly a point I intend.

Fair enough. Your post did not read that way. Later you wrote this to Kylie:

If I get into seeking pleasure with some one person, this can be isolating.

That reads as if you think marriage can be (is?) a bad idea. I'll put it down to my poor reading comprehension.

 

[com7fy8]

If I get into seeking pleasure with some one person, this can be isolating.

That reads as if you think marriage can be (is?) a bad idea.

If I am using marriage mainly to get pleasure for myself, I would say this is not good.

But marriage can get me with more and more people in love, instead of only isolating with someone I use. If I am learning how to love, I can use this to help others with their marriages and single living and looking for a mate.

1. I read an article from a Christian woman praising promiscous women and encouraging them that it was good! Huh since when it's everything opposite of what God says.

Ones can do immorality because of their desperation for pleasure . . . or for money which they can use for pleasure.

But yes ones in marriage can be doing this . . . only or mainly for what they want. It is not the fault of marriage, that we can do this. And we can do better, much better, with God.

Finding out how to love is more challenging and interesting and educational and enjoyable

 

[com7fy8]

People of all religions claim to feel the love of their god.

I see you say they feel love "of" their god. I can see how ones might feel love "for" their god, but I am not informed that anyone feels loved "by" their god which is not God through Jesus. But the Bible says >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, the Bible clearly says this.

How many people have you actually gotten to know, who have plainly said they feel loved by their god who is not Jesus? I have only heard from certain Christians that they experience God's love and this is through Jesus His Son. And Romans 5:5 says this is happening, "in our hearts".

I'm not the greatest believer(Christian) but some of this stuff I'm like God please come back these people are so confused and backwards.

People can treat God like He is just theoretical. But He is here, now, already. He is personal with us . . . with us all, in one way or another.

"God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" (in James 4:6, and in 1 Peter 5:5).

So, everyone is experiencing God, somehow, by His grace or they have the personal communication of His resistance.

And ones who have sought pleasure instead of God have wound up with their own passions trapping them and being degraded from love > Romans 1:18-32.

So, you are right, how it is not wise to trust in immorality.

 

[Kylie]

I see you say they feel love "of" their god. I can see how ones might feel love "for" their god, but I am not informed that anyone feels loved "by" their god which is not God through Jesus. But the Bible says >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, the Bible clearly says this.

How many people have you actually gotten to know, who have plainly said they feel loved by their god who is not Jesus? I have only heard from certain Christians that they experience God's love and this is through Jesus His Son. And Romans 5:5 says this is happening, "in our hearts".

Are you saying that no one ever feels like God (not Jesus) loves them?