Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

Saint Steven · Jun 2, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Exactly! It is about the law. But, more importantly it is about our old sin nature, the reason for the struggle of 14-20 in the first place which Jesus took away by putting His Spirit in us. THAT is being born again of the Spirit. Those with Christ's Spirit in them NO LONGER HAVE THIS STRUGGLE, therefore Romans 7:14-20 DOES NOT APPLY TO US!

You say with your mouth you are not under the law, then turn around and say you still have the old nature. That is a dichotomy. You can't have both at the same time.

You either have the old nature, are not born again of the Spirit, thus still under the law.

Or you are born again of the SPIRIT, NOT under the law and walk in the Spirit, thus by faith.

You have failed to yet produce any scripture that says we have a "new nature" when we are born again. How come?

Saint Steven · Jun 2, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
You may just need a refreshing of the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells when that happens to go back and do the first works, meaning repenting of the SIN NATURE, which, because you truly believe you still have it needs to be repented. In other words, our repentance is not just from the sins we can recite but from the nature which produces them.

Are you clear on the definitions of "confession" and "repentance"? (two different words)
You are using the word "repent" as if it were "confess". (a common malady of sabbatarians and former...) If you mean "repent", you should be able to substitute "turn away from" (or, "turned away from", obviously) and have the sentence still work.

1stcenturylady · Jun 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
You have failed to yet produce any scripture that says we have a "new nature" when we are born again. How come?

You just don't or can't discern the multiple times I have. How come?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. "New creature" and "new nature" are the same thing.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why you've never been taught this elementary fact is a real flaw in your teachers. I'm not blaming you, just some of the foolish doctrines out of the Church that obviously do not recognize EVERYTHING Jesus did for us on the cross.

1stcenturylady · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Are you clear on the definitions of "confession" and "repentance"? (two different words)
You are using the word "repent" as if it were "confess". (a common malady of sabbatarians and former...) If you mean "repent", you should be able to substitute "turn away from" (or, "turned away from", obviously) and have the sentence still work.

You are right, repentance IS turning away from sin. But without a new nature that is constantly pulling you back to those sins, you won't be "turning away" for long. Just because you know I was a "sabbatarian" at one time, doesn't mean I don't know everything there is to know against those old doctrines. Believe me, I'm an expert on what they do and don't believe. I'm a Berean. But you keep throwing that in my face as if you know what you are talking about regarding what I believe that may or may not be similiar. But even SDA's know that repentance is turning away, so don't know what you are going on about. In this case it is those out of the Reformation that have more ridiculous flaws of doctrine than those who believe the only thing taken away were the ceremonial laws like SDA's do. Martin Luther, especially. And yours are more similar to those out of the Reformation than in Scripture. If you tested them like a Berean you'd know that.

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
You just don't or can't discern the multiple times I have. How come?

So the reason you can't back up your doctrine with scripture is because you have cornered the market on discernment?

The scriptures you provided say nothing about the old nature being preplaced with a new nature. Old "things" have passed away, but one of those things is not our old nature.

If you decided (heaven forbid) hypothetically that you wanted to return to your old life of sin, could you do it? Or would the lack of an old nature prevent it from ever happening again?

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
If you tested them like a Berean you'd know that.

Right. That explains why you can't show me scripture that says our old nature has been replaced with a new one. (as you claim)

mmksparbud · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Right. That explains why you can't show me scripture that says our old nature has been replaced with a new one. (as you claim)

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Only possible when we are daily surrendered to the Holy Spirit.

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

mmksparbud said:
2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Only possible when we are daily surrendered to the Holy Spirit.

Which would mean that the old nature is still fully intact. You are agreeing with me.

mmksparbud · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Which would mean that the old nature is still fully intact. You are agreeing with me.

"having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

mmksparbud said:
"having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

"having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

mmksparbud · Jun 3, 2019

This explains it better than I:

The first problem that comes up with this question is one of semantics. For example, many prefer "sin nature," others prefer "sinful nature," and still others prefer the ambiguous "flesh." Whatever the specific names used for the warring parties, what is relevant is that an ongoing battle rages within the Christian.

The second problem is the actual definition of "nature." How this significant word is defined determines how one sees the distinction between the “old man” and the “new man” and its relevant outworking in the life of the Christian. One way to view "nature" is to understand it as a "capacity" within a believer. Thus, the old man is interpreted as the former way of life, that of an unbeliever. In this sense, the Christian has two competing capacities within him—the old capacity to sin and the new capacity to resist sinning. The unbeliever has no such competition within; he does not have the capacity for godliness because he has only the sin nature. That’s not to say he cannot do “good works,” but his motivation for those works is always tainted by his sinfulness. In addition, he cannot resist sinning because he doesn’t have the capacity to not sin.

The believer, on the other hand, has the capacity for godliness because the Spirit of God lives within him or her. He still has the capacity for sin as well, but he now has the ability to resist sin and, more importantly, the desire to resist and to live godly. When Christ was crucified, the old man was crucified with Him, resulting in the Christian's no longer being a slave to sin (Romans 6:6). We “have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:18).

At the moment of conversion, the Christian receives a new nature. It is instantaneous. Sanctification, on the other hand, is the process by which God develops our new nature, enabling us to grow into more holiness through time. This is a continuous process with many victories and defeats as the new nature battles with the “tent” in which it resides—the old man, old nature, flesh.

In Romans 7, Paul explains the battle that rages continually in even the most spiritually mature people. He laments that he does what he doesn’t want to do and, in fact, does the evil he detests. He says that is the result of “sin living in me” (Romans 7:20). He delights in God’s law according to his “inner being,” but he sees another law at work in “the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members” (v. 23). Here is the classic example of the two entities, whatever terms they may carry. The point is that the battle is real, and it is one Christians will wage throughout their lives.

This is why believers are encouraged to put to death the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13), to put to death that which makes a Christian sin (Colossians 3:5), and to put aside other sins such as anger, wrath, malice, etc. (Colossians 3:8). All this to say that the Christian has two natures—the old and the new—but the new nature needs continual renewing (Colossians 3:10). This renewing, of course, is a lifetime process for the Christian. Even though the battle against sin is constant, we are no longer under the control of sin (Romans 6:6). The believer is truly a “new creation” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), and it is Christ who will ultimately “rescue [us] from this body of death. Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:24–25).

.

1stcenturylady · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So the reason you can't back up your doctrine with scripture is because you have cornered the market on discernment?

The scriptures you provided say nothing about the old nature being preplaced with a new nature. Old "things" have passed away, but one of those things is not our old nature.

If you decided (heaven forbid) hypothetically that you wanted to return to your old life of sin, could you do it? Or would the lack of an old nature prevent it from ever happening again?

Here is your problem. You think you have the Spirit, but your problem is obvious:

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:5-7
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1stcenturylady · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Right. That explains why you can't show me scripture that says our old nature has been replaced with a new one. (as you claim)

It is becoming clear that you can never understand what I am saying, and especially Scripture. We just go round and round with me providing Scripture and you not understanding and denying their meaning.

I hope someday we can be on the same page with Scripture as our mutual foundation. There may be a reason you believe we retain the carnal nature - for you it is true because you still have it, but for me it is no longer true. You are more interested in being right, than making yourself right.

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Here is your problem. You think you have the Spirit...

So now you claim I don't have the Spirit because you and I are having a doctrinal disagreement?

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I hope someday we can be on the same page with Scripture as our mutual foundation.

So now you claim that Scripture is not my foundation because you and I are having a doctrinal disagreement? Is there only room for one interpretation of a non-essential doctrine in your world? Whether I believe I still have my old nature (like the Apostle Paul), or not, makes no difference as far as I am concerned. I guess I can see why you would be concerned, you are connecting it to salvation. As if the presence of the old nature we all have is an indicator.

1stcenturylady · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So now you claim that Scripture is not my foundation because you and I are having a doctrinal disagreement? Is there only room for one interpretation of a non-essential doctrine in your world? Whether I believe I still have my old nature (like the Apostle Paul), or not, makes no difference as far as I am concerned. I guess I can see why you would be concerned, you are connecting it to salvation. As if the presence of the old nature we all have is an indicator.

What you think is non-essential is the whole point of Christ coming to free us from Adam's sin. It just goes right over your head, because it is spiritually discerned and you think it is foolishness. I've got news for you, there is only one right answer, one correct interpretation of Scripture, and that is God's. There are not multiple right doctrines. And you better learn to discern what God means and not your false teachers out of the Reformation, that Christ called the dead church for good reason. If you are not born again of the Spirit which is becoming a new creature in Christ YOU DON'T BELONG TO CHRIST!!! And you think it is non-essential! Wow!

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
What you think is non-essential is the whole point of Christ coming to free us from Adam's sin.

Can you support that gospel with scripture? Seems like "another" gospel to me. (2Cor.11:4) See below.

It seems to me that the gospel looks more like this.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:15-16
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

1stcenturylady · Jun 3, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Can you support that gospel with scripture? Seems like "another" gospel to me. (2Cor.11:4) See below.

It seems to me that the gospel looks more like this.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:15-16
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

Romans 3 is far from the end of Paul's teaching. Yes, we are not under the law, but you are still clueless as to why.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Romans 3 is far from the end of Paul's teaching. Yes, we are not under the law, but you are still clueless as to why.

That's a smoke screen and the expected belittling insult.

The question I posted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Can you support that gospel with scripture? Seems like "another" gospel to me.

Saint Steven · Jun 3, 2019

Can you join the Apostle in his "trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance"?
(sounds like he's in worse shape than you think I am)

1 Timothy 1:15-16
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

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