Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

JackRT

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Jesus was considered a liberal back in the day for preaching against the old law of the pharisees. The pharisees were considered the hard right conservatives.

Over the centuries and going right back to the New Testament itself, the Pharisees have been viewed very negatively. In my opinion most of this negativity is quite undeserved.

At the time of Jesus the Pharisees were the most liberal and progressive aspect of Judaism. They were in several 'schools' or ‘bets’ --- the most progressive was Bet Hillel, which was in a minority position at the time of Jesus. The dominant group was the more conservative Bet Shammai. Towards the end of the first century following the destruction of the temple, Bet Hillel moved into the dominant role. Modern rabbinical Judaism traces its roots to the Pharisee movement.

Being a rabbi, Jesus was also a Pharisee and it seems most likely that Jesus was of Bet Hillel. To suggest that the scribes and Pharisees were in bed with the high priest and his little group is to betray a lack of understanding of Judaism at that time. The high priest, a Sadducee, was the most hated man in Judaism for the simple reason that he was regarded as a Roman 'quisling' --- he was after all personally appointed by the procurator himself and answered to him. The high priest did chair the Sanhedrin but did not control it. It was, in fact, controlled by the Pharisees who opposed the high priest at nearly every turn.

The Pharisees themselves became a major movement within Judaism in the centuries just prior to Jesus. They regarded their role as an effort to make the Law a possession of all the people not just the priesthood and the ruling elite. To this end they established synagogues in the cities, towns and villages. That is to say, they invented the 'community church' and most Christian churches today follow the same order of service established by the Pharisees --- several scripture readings interspersed with prayer and hymns and of course a sermon usually based on one of the readings. They also established schools attached to the synagogues to encourage literacy even amongst the common people. At the time of Jesus they as a group were certainly were not the hypocrites that the gospels portray them as. It is also very probably true that there were individual Pharisees who were over-zealous hypocrites.

In addition, they were able to successfully introduce legal measures to mitigate the harsher aspects of Torah law. This had the effect of virtually eliminating legal executions by stoning for offences like blasphemy, adultery, rebellious youths and the like. In those few executions that did take place, they ensured that the victim was rendered dead or unconscious by the first stone.

Scripture portrays a degree of hostility between the Pharisees and Jesus and his followers. It is doubtful that this was the actual case at the time of Jesus. I suspect that the majority of Pharisees would have been both curious about and friendly toward Jesus. In Acts 5:33-42 Luke portrays Peter and the apostles arrested and taken for trial before the Sanhedrin. Note that earlier in this same chapter it was the Sadducees not the Pharisees who were demanding that the apostles be imprisoned. It was Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who successfully defended them before the Sanhedrin. Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel mentioned earlier. Scripture even notes that Saul/Paul studied under Gamaliel.

About forty years following the execution of Jesus, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and with it they also destroyed the high priesthood. In the years following, the leadership of Judaism did devolve upon the Pharisees and we see rabbinic Judaism becoming dominant. Like all peoples threatened with cultural extinction, Judaism turned inward --- they circled the wagons and became very suspicious of any threat both internal and external. This is a fundamentalist knee jerk reaction --- we see something similar going on in the Islamic world today and also in the Christian right in certain parts of the USA.

This was the climate in which the gospels were written. By this time it was becoming increasingly apparent that the early Christian church was losing the battle for the heart and soul of Judaism to the Pharisee rabbis and there was a good deal of bitterness on the part of both parties. This explains the animosity toward the Pharisees. Let us then temper our attitudes and ‘Pharisee rhetoric’ because we now realize, for the most part, that they have been portrayed quite unfairly in the gospels.

You might be interested to know that at the time of Jesus the Pharisees were divided into several schools or 'Bets'. The majority were in the very rigid and conservative Bet Shammai. The most important of the minority schools was Bet Hillel. They were actually quite liberal and progressive. Recall that Rabbi Gamaliel was a student of Rabbi Hillel and that Paul claimed to have been a student of Gamaliel. Gamaliel also successfully defended Peter and some of the apostles before the Sanhedrin. The teachings of Bet Hillel would have been very familiar to Jesus because he used some of them himself along with using the parable as an effective teaching tool. By the way, to be a Rabbi was automatically to be a Pharisee. At the time of Jesus they are estimated to have numbered only about 6000 out of the estimated total world population of 10 million Jews. I suspect that Rabbi Yeshua bar Miriam (Jesus) was of Bet Hillel. Perhaps the negative press received by the Pharisees in the bible is partly due to the fact the Bet Shammai was the dominant school. Incidentally Bet Hillel did move into the dominant role late in the 1st century and became what we know today as Rabbinic Judaism. Following the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 the Pharisees replaced the high priesthood as the dominant authority in Judaism. It was at the same time becoming obvious that Christianity was losing the battle for the heart and soul of Judaism to the Pharisees. I suspect there was a certain amount of bitterness about this in the Christian community. Since this was happening at the very time the canonical gospels were being written, it should come as no surprise that our gospels reflect a certain amount of anti Pharisee and indeed anti Judaic bias.
 
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Pommer

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Absolutely Planned Parenthood misinforms women:

Medical Misinformation | Live Action

But I think we as church should still love and help pregnant women out so they don't feel the need to visit Planned Parenthood.
From your link...

Footage from an Appleton, WI, Planned Parenthood shows clinic staff, including the abortionist, lying to two of our undercover investigators about fetal development and encouraging the one who is pregnant to obtain an abortion because “women die having babies”.

I’m guessing the items in red are viewed totally different by some folks...the “investigators posed” as people seeking abortion, (lying), in order to catch someone, doing their job, counseling pregnant women.


I’ll post the proof if asked but abortion is far safer than childbirth for the woman.
 
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Pommer

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Rape is already outlawed. There is not a direct comparison on the two at all.
Yes, I guess dismissing the issue is what I’d try too, if I couldn’t see the connection.

“You must get an abortion if the state tells you to do so” is little different than
“The state insists that you must carry all viable fetuses to term”.

The specific (pregnant) woman is left out of the process!
 
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rjs330

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No, I have 1 in 5 women getting raped. Do you see large bodies of Christians forming PACs to increase funding for rape follow ups? Heck, do you see politicians doing much of anything about the huge pile up of rape kits that are not yet processed? I did not claim nothing was being done. I said I wished people would put as much effort into it as they do abortion.

Jimminy Christmas, if Christians formed PACs or protested gave money and time for every cause non-believers thought they should in order to prove their Christianity none of them would have jobs or be able to provide for their families. Then they would be attacked for not taking care of their kids.
 
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W2L

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Hi W2L,

Really? You believe that because there are laws regarding partial birth abortions that we can control women's sexuality. Perhaps you mean 'women's choice in what they do if they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy'. But that some law controls women's sexuality seems a bit far fetched to me.

According to Dictionary.com:

sex·u·al·i·ty
/ˌsekSHo͞oˈalədē/
noun
  1. capacity for sexual feelings.
I'm not sure that laws concerning abortion have much to do with a person's capacity for sexual feelings.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
I was using language my opposition was using. I agree.
 
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tall73

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Yes, I guess dismissing the issue is what I’d try too, if I couldn’t see the connection.

“You must get an abortion if the state tells you to do so” is little different than
“The state insists that you must carry all viable fetuses to term”.

The specific (pregnant) woman is left out of the process!

Rape was not the topic. The topic was saying that women could not terminate a pregnancy. And Belk implied that colors had no concern for women raped. That was an unfounded statement.

I see it as improving society. If that means “controlling women’s sexuality”, eh, whatever. I can roll with that.

Yes. It is amazing how many men are certain they should control other peoples sex lives instead of their own. If only they had as much concern for the 1 in 5 women who will be raped in their lifetime.


Supporting a law that would prevent someone from killing a life in the womb is not in fact the same as endorsing rape.
 
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Pommer

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Rape was not the topic. The topic was saying that women could not terminate a pregnancy. And Belk implied that colors had no concern for women raped. That was an unfounded statement.

“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like [heck]”― Carl Sandburg
 
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Not David

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It would seem that you might need to read up on in vitro fertilization.

Typically, a woman is given medications that allow her ovaries to produce more than one mature, (ready to be fertilized) eggs. 2-15 eggs are placed in a nutrient bath and sperm are actively “injected” into each. This results in fertilization of none, some, most or all of the eggs.
Non-fertilized eggs are discarded.
After a course of the hormones (that she would have produced naturally as if the fertilization had occurred within her body), an embryo is implanted within her uterine lining. If the embryo “takes” she becomes pregnant. Some don’t, but not to worry, there’s more back in the lab, and the procedure is attempted again.
If it does take, the woman is now pregnant and the rest of the fertilized ova are kept in cold storage, or discarded.
I read your post and my point still stands.
 
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Not David

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I worked in health care and saw 2 of these cases firsthand. They are very difficult. The goal in both was solely to save the mother. So in what other circumstance would knowingly killing an innocent child in order to benefit the mother's health be even a passing consideration?
They both should be treated as patients, any other thought is wrong.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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At some point, society really needs to recognize that single motherhood is an objectively bad thing with objectively bad results. The social safety net can be expanded as wide as the liberals want and the results won't change.

One reason I support ending abortion nationwide is precisely because women just might have to think twice about being physical with men whom they don't like.
Your plan didn't work before abortions became legal. And wont work now. A lot Men and women have always made bad decisions ,when it comes to relationship .Women typically believe they love their boyfriend or husband. And boyfriend typically loves their girlfriend or wife.
If Planned Parenthood and the nanny state aren't there to bail these women out of their bad decisions, who knows? They just might make better decisions.
Teaching men and women more about Birth Control. And making Birth Control easer to access and cheaper is the way to go. If planned parent hood and the states weren't here. Every poor person could have up to 20 kids. Most poor or middle class women or man, I know get fixed when they can legally get fixed. And thanks, to what you call the nanny states . Poor people can also get fixed . Women, that don't use BC isn't going to make better decisions. The middle class women and men can just afford to keep aborting. By The Way, I doubt abortions will go away.
But we can hope.
Trying to force people to live like Christians isn't going work, Since it never has. Heck Christians don't always live like Christians . And the bible is very clear not to force God on people. Since it doesn't work at all.
 
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tall73

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“If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like [heck]”― Carl Sandburg


Rape is outlawed. Banning abortion is not rape. Both the law and the facts support that. But Belk wanted to compare colors to someone who supports rape, which was a smear tactic.

I don't agree with colors assertion that he would prefer a theocracy. However, he never endorsed rape, and the two are not the same.
 
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bekkilyn

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By The Way, I doubt abortions will go away.
Trying to force people to live like Christians isn't going work, Since it never has. Heck Christians don't always live like Christians . And the bible is very clear not to force God on people. Since it doesn't work at all.

According this Lifeway survey, 70% of women who get abortions identify as Christians (and 23% consider themselves to be evangelicals). A pretty interesting survey considering some of the very unrealistic comments some people have made in this thread.
 
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tall73

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Your plan didn't work before abortions became legal. And wont work now. A lot Men and women have always made bad decisions ,when it comes to relationship .

This is true. I am guessing, but he would have to confirm, that colors thinks societal pressure at least achieved lower levels of out of wedlock marriage, or if that failed shotgun weddings.


Trying to force people to live like Christians isn't going work, Since it never has. Heck Christians don't always live like Christians . And the bible is very clear not to force God on people. Since it doesn't work at all.

I agree that you cannot force someone to be a Christian.

However, the question here is one that would have to be faced by legal systems whether Christians existed or not.

Japan for instance historically banned and then later limited abortion. Over time more exceptions were added. But the moral question is still there apart form Christian teaching.
 
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Aldebaran

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I know what you pointed out. But just -learning- does not make a human. That was what I pointed out.

But it does indicate that they're alive and have a spirit and consciousness. That's something you were saying wouldn't make any sense for them to have before being born in post 187.
 
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Aldebaran

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You really truly want to put a dent...a serious dent...in abortions??? Then deal with the social issues which face women when they deal with the issue of pregnancy. Why on earth would you want to condemn BOTH the woman and the child to a life of poverty just because you would rather make a criminal out of someone than lift her up and support her in a Christ-like manner?

Is it better condemn the child to death because they might live in poverty?
 
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