The Holy Bible Teaches Globe Earth.

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

Strathos said:
Hey, I'm totally on board with you that flat earth is bogus. But some Christians honestly believe it.

I agree. Some Christians have become victims to a malicious hoax which has no origin or root in Christianity. The whole thing is a subtle attack on Christianity for the purpose of spreading and apostasy. Trust me, I know what these conspiracy groups are about and its not good to say the very least.

Many years ago I debated atheists right on this same forum. The topic: the shape of the earth. Atheists used all the same arguments then as FE use today. The attitude and demeanor is also the same. The only thing different from then to now is how atheists have become more radical -- and FE is an extremely radical masquerade.

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

A_Thinker said:
The Bible does not imply a flat Earth ... no more than my recording of my day-to-day life experiences imply a flat Earth. I have read the Bible, and there is not one passage in it which mandates the understanding that the Earth is flat.

I mean, think about it objectively for a moment. If it was really important to God that we KNOW that the Earth is flat, ... wouldn't He have been a lot more explicit about it ? He could have easily inspired a Bible to write ... "The Earth is flat ... ". But He didn't.

My position, from 40 years of Bible study, is that the shape of the Earth is not explicitly described in the scriptures, at least not to the common believer (FEZZILLA is distinctly uncommon), ... because God did not want us to be drawn into making doctrine about the shape of the earth. Similar to how he warned Timothy not to get bogged down in old-wives tales and geneologies, etc., but rather, to focus upon the proclamation and defense of the faith.

1 Timothy 1

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; ...

The thing you overlook here is how the Bible actually does mention the shape of the earth and its no wives tale either. 2000 years of globe earth readiing from the Bible.

Phil.Stein · Jan 28, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
The thing you overlook here is how the Bible actually does mention the shape of the earth and its no wives tale either. 2000 years of globe earth readiing from the Bible.

Yes, it does. It mentions the "circle of the Earth", not the "sphere of the Earth". And no matter how angry this fact may make you, the point is, it is still a fact. And if we are debating whether circle implies more or less flat than a sphere, the fact is that a circle is indeed more flat than a sphere. So from a scriptural perspective, a flat Earth is moreso implied than a ball Earth.

A_Thinker · Jan 28, 2019

Speedwell · Jan 28, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I agree. Some Christians have become victims to a malicious hoax which has no origin or root in Christianity. The whole thing is a subtle attack on Christianity for the purpose of spreading and apostasy. Trust me, I know what these conspiracy groups are about and its not good to say the very least.

Many years ago I debated atheists right on this same forum. The topic: the shape of the earth. Atheists used all the same arguments then as FE use today. The attitude and demeanor is also the same. The only thing different from then to now is how atheists have become more radical -- and FE is an extremely radical masquerade.

So you believe that flat Earth proponents are really atheists in disguise? Well, I suppose the only Christians at risk are those who think the Bible teaches anything about the shape of the Earth at all.

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

Phil.Stein said:
Yes, it does. It mentions the "circle of the Earth", not the "sphere of the Earth". And no matter how angry this fact may make you, the point is, it is still a fact. And if we are debating whether circle implies more or less flat than a sphere, the fact is that a circle is indeed more flat than a sphere. So from a scriptural perspective, a flat Earth is moreso implied than a ball Earth.

You're being ridiculous. I've already supplied ample proof that chuwg is applicable to globe. You supplied no proof for a Biblical flat earth. I have properly sourced my materials and you just preached in your own name.

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

Speedwell said:
So you believe that flat Earth proponents are really atheists in disguise? Well, I suppose the only Christians at risk are those who think the Bible teaches anything about the shape of the Earth at all.

How many times do I have to post the facts before you accept them?

There is no flat earth tradition in Christianity which means the Bible does not teach flat earth. All you find throughout Christian history are globe earth readings from Scripture. I've supplied hard proof and you supplied nothing. You're just preaching yourself here and don't have an authoritative argument to stand on.

Speedwell · Jan 28, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
How many times do I have to post the facts before you accept them?

There is no flat earth tradition in Christianity which means the Bible does not teach flat earth. All you find throughout Christian history are globe earth readings from Scripture. I've supplied hard proof and you supplied nothing. You're just preaching yourself here and don't have an authoritative argument to stand on.

I'm not preaching and don't intend to mount an authoritative argument. I'm just asking questions which you refuse to answer.

All you have shown so far is that the Bible is consistent with a spherical Earth. You have not shown that the Bible actually teaches it. You have not said why you think it is important to you to prove that the Bible teaches it.

d taylor · Jan 28, 2019

The only fact you (the topic poster) have proven is that along with the other pagan practices the catholic church brought into christianity (or the catholic church). They also brought into christianity (all of christianity catholic & protestant) the pagan science of a globe earth.

Also in the Bible it is always the small minority who accept God at His word. Noah, Joshua and the 12 spies, The people who believed Jesus as the promised Messiah, etc..

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

d taylor said:
The only fact you (the topic poster) have proven is that along with the other pagan practices the catholic church brought into christianity (or the catholic church). They also brought into christianity (all of christianity catholic & protestant) the pagan science of a globe earth.

Also in the Bible it is always the small minority who accept God at His word. Noah, Joshua and the 12 spies, The people who believed Jesus as the promised Messiah, etc..

Wow...2000 years of globe earth readings from the Bible and only now, in the last 4 years of the 21st century, did we finally learn the true Gospel. The wide path has just become much wider according to you.

Your comment contradicts flat earth claims. For they say that the pagans believed in flat earth so the Hebrews copied from their neighbors. This supposedly a good thing but you now claim the Catholic Church borrowed globe earth from the pagans.

For the first 1000 years of the Christian faith the entire Christian faith was united and there were no denominations. As early as Clement of Rome we see globe earth. But you would call Clement of Rome a complete heretic.

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life" (Philippians 4:3).

Clement was consecrated by the Apostle Peter to lead the church in Rome. The Apostle Paul mentioned him favorably and said his name is in the Book of Life. But you say Clement is a heretic because he read spinning globe out of the Bible. But if he was a heretic then we have to also assume Clement of Alexandria was also a heretic when he wrote:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

So the Holy Scriptures taught him the earth is a sphere that rotates. But you say 2nd century Clement of Alexandria was a heretic and thus heretics are all hell bound souls so neither Clement of Alexandria or Clement of Rome are saved due to teaching heresy according to you. This would also mean the Apostle Paul was in err for saying Clement of Rome was written in the Book of life.

But wait, there are more heretics.

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

Then we have the oldest quotation of Isaiah 40:22 that I was able to find from 4th century Bishop Ambrose:

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

When do these heretics stop with their globe earth readings from the Bible? Well, shortly after Ambrose quoted Isaiah we see St.Jerome come along and translate Hebrew and Greek into Latin. This is known as the Latin Vulgate and the most widely used Bible in the whole of Christendom.

Isaiah 40:22 from the Latin Vulgate:

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition of gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2ZOp9F5V1EmDJraeQfyPRTLbRQugrgi8glBmHqM7TGfyc

Jerome also translated the following verses and many more like it.

1 Samuel 2:8,

Latin Vulgate: "suscitat de pulvere egenum et de stercore elevat pauperem ut sedeat cum principibus et solium gloriae teneat Domini enim sunt cardines terrae et posuit super eos orbem"

Word: Orb, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...HZq7ZwjcIxGETChHvuYEHJp72e-AI7aheZEodRdy1lOoE

The greatest translator of all time, William Tyndale, translates this verse:

English: "He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

Job 37:12,

Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...X-6OnKB0Au9IzwmvVuWQFglq2rZogeDJcn39PFI7r8pns

Best English translation for this verse:

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...RRL-c90_0XWX9yLvdziRISu3-Y832H0r8JkpNd2sQXnP4

English: "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

So what 1st century Clement & 2nd century Clement, along with Origen and Ambrose read, did not deviate from Jerome's translating of Hebrew. Yet you want to claim they were heretics and trust 21st century con-artists over the earliest understanding of our subject matter.

Its the flat earth movement that is in err.

FEZZILLA · Jan 28, 2019

Speedwell said:
I'm not preaching and don't intend to mount an authoritative argument. I'm just asking questions which you refuse to answer.

All you have shown so far is that the Bible is consistent with a spherical Earth. You have not shown that the Bible actually teaches it. You have not said why you think it is important to you to prove that the Bible teaches it.

I did.

Speedwell · Jan 29, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I did.

No you did not.

In the Bible, the Earth is described in phenomenological language which is consistent with it being a sphere. That is not the same as teaching that the Earth is a sphere. I am not aware that it anywhere asserts "the Earth is a sphere" or anything remotely like a teaching.

FEZZILLA · Jan 29, 2019

Speedwell said:
No you did not.

In the Bible, the Earth is described in phenomenological language which is consistent with it being a sphere. That is not the same as teaching that the Earth is a sphere. I am not aware that it anywhere asserts "the Earth is a sphere" or anything remotely like a teaching.

What is it you don't understand? Did you not understand my last post? You would think that once you see 2000 years of globe earth you might wise up to the reality that the Bible teaches globe earth.

2000 years of theology can't go wrong.

Speedwell · Jan 29, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
What is it you don't understand? Did you not understand my last post? You would think that once you see 2000 years of globe earth you might wise up to the reality that the Bible teaches globe earth.

2000 years of theology can't go wrong.

But you still can't show me where the Bible actually teaches a spherical Earth. What you have shown so far is that,

1. The Bible, which is rather vague on the subject, can be interpreted in such a way as to be consistent with a spherical Earth.
2. The Fathers you have quoted, who already knew the Earth was a sphere from science, were justified in interpreting the Bible as being consistent with it.

There is nothing in the Bible which you have brought to our attention so far which amounts to an actual teaching that the Earth is a sphere.

FEZZILLA · Jan 29, 2019

Speedwell said:
But you still can't show me where the Bible actually teaches a spherical Earth. What you have shown so far is that,

1. Bible, which is rather vague on the subject, can be interpreted in such a way as to be consistent with a spherical Earth.
2. The Fathers you have quoted, who already knew the Earth was a sphere from science, were justified in interpreting the Bible as being consistent with it.

There is nothing in the Bible which you have brought to our attention so far which amounts to an actual teaching that the Earth is a sphere.

I posted from Hebrew lexicons, early church fathers, 1st century Jewish historian, modern day scholars, Bible Commentaries, and 4th century Latin Vulgate. I have proven from the very best Christian sources that the Bible teaches globe earth.

You have only posted your opinion which was refuted by greater known facts. You have no sources that come from reputable Christian authorities and resort to petty atheist arguments. News Flash: atheists have no authority of the teachings of the church. We Christians do not care what atheists say.

d taylor · Jan 29, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
Wow...2000 years of globe earth readings from the Bible and only now, in the last 4 years of the 21st century, did we finally learn the true Gospel. The wide path has just become much wider according to you.

Your comment contradicts flat earth claims. For they say that the pagans believed in flat earth so the Hebrews copied from their neighbors. This supposedly a good thing but you now claim the Catholic Church borrowed globe earth from the pagans.

For the first 1000 years of the Christian faith the entire Christian faith was united and there were no denominations. As early as Clement of Rome we see globe earth. But you would call Clement of Rome a complete heretic.

"I ask you also, true companion, help those women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life" (Philippians 4:3).

Clement was consecrated by the Apostle Peter to lead the church in Rome. The Apostle Paul mentioned him favorably and said his name is in the Book of Life. But you say Clement is a heretic because he read spinning globe out of the Bible. But if he was a heretic then we have to also assume Clement of Alexandria was also a heretic when he wrote:

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

So the Holy Scriptures taught him the earth is a sphere that rotates. But you say 2nd century Clement of Alexandria was a heretic and thus heretics are all hell bound souls so neither Clement of Alexandria or Clement of Rome are saved due to teaching heresy according to you. This would also mean the Apostle Paul was in err for saying Clement of Rome was written in the Book of life.

But wait, there are more heretics.

Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

“Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

Origen continues:

". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.

Then we have the oldest quotation of Isaiah 40:22 that I was able to find from 4th century Bishop Ambrose:

"And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

When do these heretics stop with their globe earth readings from the Bible? Well, shortly after Ambrose quoted Isaiah we see St.Jerome come along and translate Hebrew and Greek into Latin. This is known as the Latin Vulgate and the most widely used Bible in the whole of Christendom.

Isaiah 40:22 from the Latin Vulgate:

"qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition of gyrus
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...2ZOp9F5V1EmDJraeQfyPRTLbRQugrgi8glBmHqM7TGfyc

Jerome also translated the following verses and many more like it.

1 Samuel 2:8,

Latin Vulgate: "suscitat de pulvere egenum et de stercore elevat pauperem ut sedeat cum principibus et solium gloriae teneat Domini enim sunt cardines terrae et posuit super eos orbem"

Word: Orb, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition of Orbis
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...HZq7ZwjcIxGETChHvuYEHJp72e-AI7aheZEodRdy1lOoE

The greatest translator of all time, William Tyndale, translates this verse:

English: "He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

Job 37:12,

Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...X-6OnKB0Au9IzwmvVuWQFglq2rZogeDJcn39PFI7r8pns

Best English translation for this verse:

"Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...RRL-c90_0XWX9yLvdziRISu3-Y832H0r8JkpNd2sQXnP4

English: "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

So what 1st century Clement & 2nd century Clement, along with Origen and Ambrose read, did not deviate from Jerome's translating of Hebrew. Yet you want to claim they were heretics and trust 21st century con-artists over the earliest understanding of our subject matter.

Its the flat earth movement that is in err.

This here is exactly what i am talking about Clement of Alexandria came to christianity from a pagan background and brought that belief with him look at the bold type a person who brought the globe idea from Plato etc.. into christianity

Clement of Alexandria
A convert to Christianity, he was an educated man who was familiar with classical Greek philosophy and literature. As his three major works demonstrate, Clement was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy to a greater extent than any other Christian thinker of his time, and in particular by Plato and the Stoics.

Speedwell · Jan 29, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
I posted from Hebrew lexicons, early church fathers, 1st century Jewish historian, modern day scholars, Bible Commentaries, and 4th century Latin Vulgate. I have proven from the very best Christian sources that the Bible teaches globe earth.

No, you have done a thorough and outstanding job of proving that the phenomenological language of the Bible is consistent with a spherical Earth and that many early Christian theologians who already knew from science that the Earth was a sphere thought so too. But none of your lexicons and quotations show that the Bible overtly teaches that the Earth is spherical.

You have only posted your opinion which was refuted by greater known facts. You have no sources that come from reputable Christian authorities and resort to petty atheist arguments. News Flash: atheists have no authority of the teachings of the church. We Christians do not care what atheists say.

Accusing an Anglican of being an atheist is a reportable offense under the rules of this forum.

I have presented my opinion--based on your posts--that you have not shown that the Bible specifically teaches a spherical Earth.

Strathos · Jan 29, 2019

Speedwell said:
Accusing an Anglican of being an atheist is a reportable offense under the rules of this forum.

He was accusing you of using atheist arguments, not of being an atheist.

FEZZILLA · Jan 30, 2019

d taylor said:
This here is exactly what i am talking about Clement of Alexandria came to christianity from a pagan background and brought that belief with him look at the bold type a person who brought the globe idea from Plato etc.. into christianity

Clement of Alexandria
A convert to Christianity, he was an educated man who was familiar with classical Greek philosophy and literature. As his three major works demonstrate, Clement was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy to a greater extent than any other Christian thinker of his time, and in particular by Plato and the Stoics.

“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the spherical shape of the earth!

Also, you are not reading the works of Clement of Alexandria. I did not snag this quote from somewhere on the internet. I typed it in from the book. Clement also has a work called Exhortation to the Greeks where Clement refutes the pagan beliefs of the Greeks. Clement of Alexandria was not born a Christian. He was born in Athens and, like all gentiles of this period of history, found Christ. He didn't have to become a Jew first in order to accept Christ either.

You argument against Clement of Alexandria fails on two accounts:

1.) Gentiles were and still are allowed to accept Christ as their Savior (See Isaiah 60:3).

2.) Clement of Rome also read spinning globe from Scripture and he was a close companion of the Apostles; appointed by the Apostle Peter to lead the growing church in Rome; was mentioned favorably by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3, and mentioned by the church fathers after him favorably.

The globular readings of Scripture is how all the ancient Christians and Jews understood the verses discussed. The Christians didn't borrow anything from the Greeks because the entire Old Testament is older than the first recorded Greek thought about the spherical shape of the earth which was 500 B.C.

Here are a few globe earth verses from the Bible from the 4th century Latin Vulgate and the best English translation for each verse.

2000 B.C

Job 26:10,

Latin Vulgate: "terminum circumdedit aquis usque dum finiantur lux et tenebrae."

Word: circumdedit, from H2328 חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...u6Xw5sCqPm6AjCvyh0C9lqu_HvcahSEHNHo2glgTwtYpg

English: "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; -- KJV).

Job 37:12,

Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English "Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

1000 B.C.,

Psalm 89:11,

Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

LOrb, English Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English "The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

900 B.C.

Proverbs 8:31,

Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

Word: Orbe, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition of orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

Best English Translation: "As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

700 B.C.

Isaiah 34:1,

Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"

Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Orb, Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English: "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22,

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...fuJ5Yqfy56OL3kEEqaB7yygnhV9hqiWyZtVB_Zzi78sJg

English: "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- Douay Rheims Bible).

600 B.C.

Jeremiah 10:12,

Latin Vulgate: "qui facit terram in fortitudine sua praeparat orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Orb, Latin Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

English: "But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

Greek Philosopher Pythagoras, 500 B.C.
___________________________________________________________________
Hebrew Lexicons for H2328 & H2329, חוּג Chuwg

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
____________________________________________________________________
Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
_______________________________________________________________
Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND ---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
______________________________________________
QUESTION: Why Can't I Find "round world" In My Bible?

ANSWER: The Geneva scholars removed the "round world" verses from the Bible because they thought William Tyndale was too Catholic. The Geneva scholars, while sincere in their intentions, were not as experienced in Hebrew and Greek as William Tyndale, who's 1537 Matthew's Bible is still the most overall accurate English translation of the Bible.
The Anglican Church, under the instructions of Queen Elizabeth I, authorized the 1568 Bishop's Bible. The Bishop's Bible scholars managed to restore some of the lost "round world" verses but by then the Geneva Bible had already gained mainstream acceptance by Puritan Protestants.
In 1611, King James, once again, authorized a new Bible for the church. The KJV scholars, while not as well seasoned in Hebrew and Greek as William Tyndale or Thomas Cranmer, had removed the "round world" verses from the Bible. While there is much positive to be said about the KJV scholars, they followed the Geneva Bible too much, and by doing so lost many globe earth verses which said the earth is a globe. Unfortunately, by this time in history, all the most qualified Hebrew and Greek scholars were executed.
The summary of Lexicons above prove that Tyndale was correct, and removing "round" from "round world" loses the meaning of têbêl, entirely.

Tyndale was correct.

SeventyOne · Jan 30, 2019

FEZZILLA said:
“And when the seasons, in their circling course,
Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
Out of a confused heap who didst create
This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
(Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).

And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the spherical shape of the earth!

Also, you are not reading the works of Clement of Alexandria. I did not snag this quote from somewhere on the internet. I typed it in from the book. Clement also has a work called Exhortation to the Greeks where Clement refutes the pagan beliefs of the Greeks. Clement of Alexandria was not born a Christian. He was born in Athens and, like all gentiles of this period of history, found Christ. He didn't have to become a Jew first in order to accept Christ either.

You argument against Clement of Alexandria fails on two accounts:

1.) Gentiles were and still are allowed to accept Christ as their Savior (See Isaiah 60:3).

2.) Clement of Rome also read spinning globe from Scripture and he was a close companion of the Apostles; appointed by the Apostle Peter to lead the growing church in Rome; was mentioned favorably by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 4:3, and mentioned by the church fathers after him favorably.

The globular readings of Scripture is how all the ancient Christians and Jews understood the verses discussed. The Christians didn't borrow anything from the Greeks because the entire Old Testament is older than the first recorded Greek thought about the spherical shape of the earth which was 500 B.C.

Here are a few globe earth verses from the Bible from the 4th century Latin Vulgate and the best English translation for each verse.

2000 B.C

Job 26:10,

Latin Vulgate: "terminum circumdedit aquis usque dum finiantur lux et tenebrae."

Word: circumdedit, from H2328 חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...u6Xw5sCqPm6AjCvyh0C9lqu_HvcahSEHNHo2glgTwtYpg

English: "He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end" (Strong's H2328: חוּג chûwg; -- KJV).

Job 37:12,

Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English "Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

1000 B.C.,

Psalm 89:11,

Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

LOrb, English Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English "The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

900 B.C.

Proverbs 8:31,

Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

Word: Orbe, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

English Definition of Orb
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Latin Definition of orb
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

Best English Translation: "As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

700 B.C.

Isaiah 34:1,

Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"

Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Orb, Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

English: "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Isaiah 40:22,

Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

Latin Definition
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...fuJ5Yqfy56OL3kEEqaB7yygnhV9hqiWyZtVB_Zzi78sJg

English: "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- Douay Rheims Bible).

600 B.C.

Jeremiah 10:12,

Latin Vulgate: "qui facit terram in fortitudine sua praeparat orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

Orb, Latin Definition
Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

English: "But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

Jeremiah 51:15,

Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl
https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...TfVc6P3TWfpYKZkRKQan5Q-h4h1CRu06dNzISfm3fFy0o

Greek Philosopher Pythagoras, 500 B.C.
___________________________________________________________________
Hebrew Lexicons for H2328 & H2329, חוּג Chuwg

The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x].".
View attachment 250292

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."

Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
____________________________________________________________________
Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
View attachment 250293

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
_______________________________________________________________
Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND ---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
______________________________________________
QUESTION: Why Can't I Find "round world" In My Bible?

ANSWER: The Geneva scholars removed the "round world" verses from the Bible because they thought William Tyndale was too Catholic. The Geneva scholars, while sincere in their intentions, were not as experienced in Hebrew and Greek as William Tyndale, who's 1537 Matthew's Bible is still the most overall accurate English translation of the Bible.
The Anglican Church, under the instructions of Queen Elizabeth I, authorized the 1568 Bishop's Bible. The Bishop's Bible scholars managed to restore some of the lost "round world" verses but by then the Geneva Bible had already gained mainstream acceptance by Puritan Protestants.
In 1611, King James, once again, authorized a new Bible for the church. The KJV scholars, while not as well seasoned in Hebrew and Greek as William Tyndale or Thomas Cranmer, had removed the "round world" verses from the Bible. While there is much positive to be said about the KJV scholars, they followed the Geneva Bible too much, and by doing so lost many globe earth verses which said the earth is a globe. Unfortunately, by this time in history, all the most qualified Hebrew and Greek scholars were executed.
The summary of Lexicons above prove that Tyndale was correct, and removing "round" from "round world" loses the meaning of têbêl, entirely.

Tyndale was correct.

Here, maybe you can set this guy straight then. He's conducting live streams asking anyone to prove from the scriptures the earth is round and moving. I have to warn you though, he's using the Bible, not the opinions of others concerning their interpretation of the Bible. He should be doing a third live stream tonight.

The Holy Bible Teaches Globe Earth.

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