Is this even possible?

JohnB445 said:

The moment I believed was when I got born again

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Are you saying that something happened in you when you believed.......or that the word says "when you believe you are "x"", therefore when i believed I became "x"?

JohnB445 said:

yes

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Then maybe it is the case, that other believe they are saved before this "something" happens in them....

JohnB445 said:

For one to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for his sins, was buried, and resurrected and not be born again/sealed with the Holy Spirit?

For me 2 months I did attend a Church, but this was to help me believe in Jesus that's it, and to get the basics down. I was able to believe very quickly, and to me there is no such thing as maybe. It either you believe or you don't. The moment I believed was when I got born again, then I went and got baptized.

What confuses me is how people either eventually give up and leave the faith, or are professing Christians that claim they were religious but weren't born again 20 years later.

Did they never do step 1?? Which was believe? Or are people skipping this crucial step?

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Hi John, profession does not always = Possession. There are many in the church who claim to believe in Christ who are not saved (even though they may actually believe that they are) .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23. I was such a person for the first 30 years of my life. In fact, I grew up in the church and always believed I was a Christian, right up until the day I actually became one that is.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - Demons know exactly who Jesus is, and they know exactly what He did, but they do not possess saving faith in Him (obviously).

JohnB445 said:

I'm not saying this to sound rude or anything. But for 30 years you did not believe Jesus died for your sins?

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It goes further than that......most believe in an image created out of the doctrines of men (or our own minds interpretation). We can worship this image and be content for decades.......and once it goes that long, there is little chance of turning back.... But there are a few of these who God calls and chooses to show/reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
When this happens, they seldom ponder why others havent found what they have found...as they were chosen off the path of the many, to traverse the path of the few...because of no good will of there own and for no superior knowledge that they have gained.......but only for and by the grace of God....

Some of us are raised in a denomination and just slide into the role of being a Christian rather than truly understanding "conversion". So I do believe a person can do all the motions and not be emotionally tied to Christ. Searching out yourself instead of getting indoctrinated in the family denomination, is what many may need in order to know Him. I believe this is why so many leave, and it is probably a good thing because many come back as well regenerated.
Blessings

JohnB445 said:

I'm not saying this to sound rude or anything. But for 30 years you did not believe Jesus died for your sins?

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Hi John, no, I knew that He died on the Cross to save me from my sins since I was first taught that in Sunday School as a kid. However, saving faith, which is a “gift” that we receive from God .. Ephesians 2:8, is more than a simple mental assent to the facts about Jesus and what He did for us. As I pointed out in my first post, even the demons know that those things are true, and they shudder because if it .. James 2:19.

Saving faith involves other things, like trust, and the surrendering our lives to the One we have come to know .. John 17:3, the One who is able to save us. Mostly, coming to saving faith in Jesus involves a change in us and in our desires, which is something that only God is capable of accomplishing .. e. g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; John 6:44; Ephesians 2:1-5.

—David

JohnB445 said:

For one to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for his sins, was buried, and resurrected and not be born again/sealed with the Holy Spirit?

For me 2 months I did attend a Church, but this was to help me believe in Jesus that's it, and to get the basics down. I was able to believe very quickly, and to me there is no such thing as maybe. It either you believe or you don't. The moment I believed was when I got born again, then I went and got baptized.

What confuses me is how people either eventually give up and leave the faith, or are professing Christians that claim they were religious but weren't born again 20 years later.

Did they never do step 1?? Which was believe? Or are people skipping this crucial step?

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Genuine conversion results in permanent faith and a lifestyle consistent with that faith.

1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

JohnB445 said:

What confuses me is how people either eventually give up and leave the faith, or are professing Christians that claim they were religious but weren't born again 20 years later.

Did they never do step 1?? Which was believe? Or are people skipping this crucial step?

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People change. God knows who his own really are, but from our point of view there are people who are Christians but fall away.

People who believe in Jesus and aren't born again? I don't believe it. John 1:12 says those who believe in Jesus become children of God, born from God. In John 3, "above" is probably a circumluction for God, so born from above in that passage is the same as born from God in John 1:12.

In John 3, the key phrase can be translated either "born again" or "born from above." But Nicodemus' question about being born a second time is clearly based on a misunderstanding, so the intended meaning is "born from above." I.e. this passage is really talking about the same thing as 1:12.

For someone who is converted, both terms would work. But for people who grow up as Christians, there may be no time when they weren't Christians, and thus no specific time when they were born again. But still, they're part of the Kingdom, so they were which is what Jesus meant.

Could someone claim to be religious and not actually be a follower? Sure, there are people who for political or social reasons identify as Christian but don't actually follow Jesus. But short of that kind of dishonesty, I think it's uncommon. There are lots of groups that think lots of other groups are doing it wrong, and so they really aren't followers. But that's not a game that is healthy for Christians to play, and Jesus prohibits it.

JohnB445 said:

I thought that change happens to everyone that believes. As in its automatic.

The change happened to me when I believed. it was overnight change.

My heart cannot sin unrepentendly without giving me some remorse. It bothers me not out of fear, but because I am sinning against God.

Before I believed I didn't really care about sin.

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Hi John, we cannot come to saving faith in Jesus until His Father acts on our behalf by ἑλκύω [helkuo] "drawing" us to Him (John 6:44), which I believe He does when He makes the changes in us that I mentioned in one of my former posts above. He takes us from a state of spiritual death and makes us alive by quickening our hearts & regenerating us .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-5, so that we finally can and will choose to believe .. John 6:37.

We are able to be saved because of all the changes that God makes in us, and by His gracious choice to do so, of course, a choice which is merited for us by Christ (by all the things that He did for us when He lived among us). IOW, we are saved by God from first to last, by the things 'He' did and does for us (not by anything that 'we' do). As Jonathan Edwards once said, "we contribute nothing to our salvation except the sin that made it necessary".

Yours and His,
David

JohnB445 said:

For one to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for his sins, was buried, and resurrected and not be born again/sealed with the Holy Spirit?

For me 2 months I did attend a Church, but this was to help me believe in Jesus that's it, and to get the basics down. I was able to believe very quickly, and to me there is no such thing as maybe. It either you believe or you don't. The moment I believed was when I got born again, then I went and got baptized.

What confuses me is how people either eventually give up and leave the faith, or are professing Christians that claim they were religious but weren't born again 20 years later.

Did they never do step 1?? Which was believe? Or are people skipping this crucial step?

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The step is not a single one, in order to be born again. There are several steps in the process. Consider this:

1. Becoming aliens in a life of serving interests of self for gains that perish.
2. Crying out to God for citizenship in a life of serving His interests for treasure that lasts.
3. God is not afraid to be called your God and has prepared a country for you to enter and reveals to you how to enter it, gives you bread from heaven, teaches you the Way, how picking up across results in resurrection through God's great work, after He pulls you out of the water.
4. Remembering God's great works, the Way.
5. Hearing His voice.
6. Moving forward to pick up your cross.
7. Resurrecting into Christ.
8. Coming near to God.
9. Becoming blessings to the world.

Wordkeeper said:

The step is not a single one, in order to be born again. There are several steps in the process. Consider this:

1. Becoming aliens in a life of serving interests of self for gains that perish.
2. Crying out to God for citizenship in a life of serving His interests for treasure that lasts.
3. God is not afraid to be called your God and has prepared a country for you to enter and reveals to you how to enter it, gives you bread from heaven, teaches you the Way, how picking up across results in resurrection through God's great work, after He pulls you out of the water.
4. Remembering God's great works, the Way.
5. Hearing His voice.
6. Moving forward to pick up your cross.
7. Resurrecting into Christ.
8. Coming near to God.
9. Becoming blessings to the world.

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Hi Wordkeeper, I'm not totally clear about the meanings of all of your points above (like your two comments about "resurrection"), but for the most part, I don't believe that any of the things you mentioned can happen prior to God causing us to be born again. Those who are not born again (who are still dead in their trespasses and sins) cannot see, much less enter into, the Kingdom of God. They neither know Him nor understand the things of God (as anything other than foolishness), because they cannot understand such things from God's perspective. As St. Paul says of those who are not born again:


Those of us who are born again are the only aliens who willingly, lovingly serve God's interests rather than our own, because those who are not born again do not know God, and they cannot obey Someone they do not know/cannot understand.

On the other hand, those who are born again belong to Him. We hear His voice and draw near to Him, we pick up our crosses and follow Him, and we become blessings to the world such that the world gives Him the glory .. Matthew 5:16, because we both know and love Him. This is not possible for someone who does not know God, for someone who can neither accept nor understand the things of the Spirit of God.

We do all things by His grace, but only because we are ~already~ His, because we have ~already~ been born again and have been made His workmanship/masterpiece as wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:17.

--David

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JohnB445 said:

For one to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for his sins, was buried, and resurrected and not be born again/sealed with the Holy Spirit?

For me 2 months I did attend a Church, but this was to help me believe in Jesus that's it, and to get the basics down. I was able to believe very quickly, and to me there is no such thing as maybe. It either you believe or you don't. The moment I believed was when I got born again, then I went and got baptized.

What confuses me is how people either eventually give up and leave the faith, or are professing Christians that claim they were religious but weren't born again 20 years later.

Did they never do step 1?? Which was believe? Or are people skipping this crucial step?

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A sower went out to sow...

Are you familiar with this parable?

The Pharisees and Scribes and Sadducee considered themselves righteous before God. They were completely convinced that they were not blind but enlightened and faithful to the Lord God.

But remember how they murdered the prophets and crucified the Just One, Jesus Christ. And after all of this, their opinions regarding their faith never changed.

When you have the erroneous belief that salvation is an instantaneous and permanent condition in this life, then you will become confused as to why others who "believed" afterwards fell away. Yet, the Lord clearly taught that the sower sowed some seed along the wayside, some on stony ground, some among thorns; nevertheless, only the seed which landed on good ground (a good and honest heart which received the Word and produced fruit with patience) was the seed that brought forth a harvest of salvation.

The Lord does not ignore our free will. We have the freedom, until the very end of our earthly life, to reject Him or abide in Him.

Look at Judas: he worked many miracles in the name of Christ, casting out demons and healing people. The Scriptures even say that the Apostles revived the dead, and this presumably includes Judas. Nevertheless, this wicked betrayer allowed his heart to be choked with the thorns of greed and therefore delivered Jesus to be murdered. He did this of his own free will even after Christ had appointed him an Apostle and granted him gifts to work miracles and preach the gospel. And it is for this reason that the Lord says, "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23)

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Wordkeeper, I'm not totally clear about the meanings of all of your points above (like your two comments about "resurrection"), but for the most part, I don't believe that any of the things you mentioned can happen prior to God causing us to be born again. Those who are not born again (who are still dead in their trespasses and sins) cannot see, much less enter into, the Kingdom of God. They neither know Him nor understand the things of God (as anything other than foolishness), because they cannot understand such things from God's perspective. As St. Paul says of those who are not born again:

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Those of us who are born again are the only aliens who willingly, lovingly serve God's interests rather than our own, because those who are not born again do not know God, and they cannot obey Someone they do not know/cannot understand.

On the other hand, those who are born again belong to Him. We hear His voice and draw near to Him, we pick up our crosses and follow Him, and we become blessings to the world such that the world gives Him the glory .. Matthew 5:16, because we both know and love Him. This is not possible for someone who does not know God, for someone who can neither accept nor understand the things of the Spirit of God.

We do all things by His grace, but only because we are ~already~ His, because we have ~already~ been born again and have been made His workmanship/masterpiece as wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:17.

--David

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

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The people who left Egypt because God performed miracles that showed His ability and willingness to take them into the Promised Land were given the Sinaitic Covenant as acknowledgement of their faith through baptism into Moses. However, baptism doesn’t save, it’s only a seal of acceptance into the covenant:

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.


The fault of the Israelites was in forgetting how God had saved them:


Psalm 78:11They forgot His deeds

And His miracles that He had shown them.

12He wrought wonders before their fathers

In the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.

13He divided the sea and caused them to pass through,

And He made the waters stand up like a heap.

14Then He led them with the cloud by day

And all the night with a light of fire.

15He split the rocks in the wilderness

And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths.

16He brought forth streams also from the rock

And caused waters to run down like rivers.

17Yet they still continued to sin against Him,

To rebel against the Most High in the desert.


Those who remember God’s great works and change from being afraid like the Israelites when hardships arose, to being strong in their dependence on God, are born again, like Caleb:


Numbers 14:20 The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21 Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23 not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24 But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it. 25 Since the Amalekites and the Canaanitesare living in the valleys, turn back tomorrow and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.[a]”

The problem with Christians today is that they don’t know that they are to be alienated by the world, disgusted with it:

Hebrews 11: 13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Or that they have yet to enter Rest:

Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.