Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

GodsGrace101

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It shows the exact opposite. To obey is to believe. But twist away.


You bet it does!!

[QUOTE\I'm glad you agree...
Those who do not obey or believe, are not saved.
Since the word means to not believe, I agree that those who don't believe are not saved.

But, why are you still posting? I thought you'd bowed out.[/QUOTE]
Oh, let's see...

Do you obey someone first BEFORE you believe in them...
Or do you BELIEVE in someone and thus you obey them???

You said those who don't believe are not saved...
Good.
Now...
Does it matter WHEN they didn't believe?

If belief is necessary for salvation...
what happens when one does NOT believe?
What if the person doesn't believe from birth?
What if the person doesn't believe AFTER he was saved for A WHILE, TEMPORARILY?

Here's what Jesus said:
Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

So, they were saved for a while,
and then FELL AWAY.

We must be a part of Jesus' flock when we die in order to redeem our inheritance.


 
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GodsGrace101

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They are saved because they believed in Him.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Acts 16:31


Where did your opinion get this notion? Certainly not from the Bible.
You're the one who correctly stated that the word BELIEVE implies OBEDIENCE.

Believe in the Lord Jesus means to obey the Lord Jesus.
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Again:
First one believes
Then one obeys.

You come to believe in God first...
And then you obey Him.
 
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GodsGrace101

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What's really too bad is your unbiblical judgmental attitude towards that which you know absolutely nothing about.
It's OK to judge.
We just cannot judge a person's soul
Must I tell you everything?
 
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FreeGrace2

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What does John 10:28 say Freegrace?

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28
Yes, exactly that. Jesus is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, and never perishing is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

What will cause Jesus to give a person eternal life based on this verse?
That question cannot be answered from v.28, as all can see.

The answer is found in the previous verse.
Of course it is. And I have said so. So why do you persist in repeating yourself?
Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep.

But you know that don't you, which is why you never post the scripture.
Pure nonsense. Just look at my comments so far to your post. I'm not hiding or dodging anything.

John 10:28 begins with the conjunction word "and".
Not really important. Certainly doesn't indicate any kind of condition having to be met.

There is a condition mentioned in v.28, though. The condition for never perishing is to be given eternal life.

And ties together His previous statement with the one He is about to make.
Sure. But tying together doesn't create a condition to be met.

Verse 27 and verse 28 are inseparable as verse 28 shows the result of doing verse 27.
Uh, no. No one fluent in English would agree with you. The result of being given eternal life in v.28 (I give them eternal life) is never perishing (and they shall never perish).

That's how normal people would easily and obviously understand v.28.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Those who hear and follow are given eternal life.
Wanna bet?

Jesus had already established who possesses eternal life in these verses:

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These 3 verses blow your theories and opinions out of the water.

The sole condition for possessing (in the PRESENT TENSE) eternal life is to believe in Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Do you obey someone first BEFORE you believe in them...
Or do you BELIEVE in someone and thus you obey them???
I don't believe in just "someone". So your question is irrelevant.

You said those who don't believe are not saved...
Good.
Now...
Does it matter WHEN they didn't believe?
Your questions certainly lack clarity. Every human being starts life as an unbeliever. So your question is really bogus.

If belief is necessary for salvation...
what happens when one does NOT believe?
Please provide more information as I do not understand the whole picture and cannot answer your probably entrapment question.

What if the person doesn't believe from birth?
Silly question. All humans don't believe from birth. Didn't you know that.

All humans are born spiritually dead (separated from God) and headed for hell.

What if the person doesn't believe AFTER he was saved for A WHILE, TEMPORARILY?
Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish. But do you believe that?

Here's what Jesus said:
Luke 8:13
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

So, they were saved for a while,
and then FELL AWAY.

I'm betting you share JLB's misunderstanding of this verse.

To "believe for a while" and to "fall away" are equivalents.

Jesus could just as easily have said it this way:
"they believe for a while, and in time of temptation quit believing".

There is NO DIFFERENCE between the sentence just above and Luke 8:13.

Or prove that there is a difference, if you can.

We must be a part of Jesus' flock when we die in order to redeem our inheritance.
Problem solved. When one believes, from that moment on, they POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE, because John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that whoever believes possesses eternal life.

Also, Eph 1:13,14 says that those having believed (past tense) ARE (now) sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING (like a solemn promise from God Himself) the believer's inheritance until redemption as God's possession.

Do you understand what "until redemption" means here? It means the one sealed WILL be redeemed on the basis of being sealed.

Do you believe that?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You're the one who correctly stated that the word BELIEVE implies OBEDIENCE.[/QUOT]
Actually, I didn't. But since you never seem to bother doing any research on Greek words and what they mean, you've made another mistake.

The word for "not obey" is apietho and means "not believe" or 'unbelieving'.

The word for "believe" in all the verses in John is pistueo and means to "entrust to someone". Has NOTHING to do with following orders, as in obedience.

So, to believe in Christ means what? It means you are entrusting your very soul TO Christ for salvation. It's all on Him to save you.

Do you believe that?

Believe in the Lord Jesus means to obey the Lord Jesus.
I'm getting rather tired with your mistakes.

Here's the Greek word for "believe" as found in John 3:16 and many more:
NT:4100 pisteuo (pist-yoo'-o); from NT:4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):

KJV - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Do you see anything in this definition about following orders (obeying)?

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Again:
First one believes
Then one obeys.
Reading skills need remedial work. The verse does not say anything like what you are saying here.

It DOES say that he who believes possesses eternal life, and he who does not believe will not see life but God's wrath abides on him.

You come to believe in God first...
And then you obey Him.
Have you ever noticed that the NT is full of COMMANDS to obey Him? Why is that? Because it isn't automatic nor guaranteed.

And have you also noticed that there are NO VERSES that say that obedience (following orders) is how to be saved or receive eternal life?
 
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FreeGrace2

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JLB777

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Yes, exactly that. Jesus is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, and never perishing is the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.


So what your saying is nobody has to hear and obey and follow Him, but He will give them eternal life anyway?


What about these scriptures?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


So your saying we can hate our brother and we still have eternal life?

again

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


So are you saying we don’t have to continue in the teachings of Christ, but we will still have God?


JLB
 
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Butch5

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Not around this thread. I am sure someone will attempt to change the meaning of those verses to match the theology they seem to love more than they love Christ.

That seems to be all too common. I find that many will say that the Bible is the infallible, inspired word of God. Then I find when talking with them that they don't believe it. Rather they choose their theology over what is clearly stated in Scripture.
 
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Dan the deacon

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I said this:
"Here's what I'll answer: honest questions that have no false premise. Your questions are devoid of honesty and truthful premises."

Your question about "lost sheep" is wrought with a false premise.

btw, have you finally stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no
What kind of sheep was that? Lost? Wasn't this one of Jesus's sheep?
 
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A "lost sheep" a spiritually eternally saved "Child of God" who was lost in sin, forgiven, and returned to the flock.

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (confesses)
 
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GodsGrace101

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A "lost sheep" a spiritually eternally saved "Child of God" who was lost in sin, forgiven, and returned to the flock.

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (confesses)
1. What if he was so lost that Jesus couldn't find him anymore?

2. Repent does not mean to confess.

These are the silly things we have to speak about when the main premise of the entire N.T. is not understood or accepted.

Man is both a physical and spiritual being.

To be in contact with God man must tap into his spirituality and commune with God.

He cannot commune with God unless He is following God's rules.

Jesus is THE LIFE.
No Jesus, no life.

Easy.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So what your saying is nobody has to hear and obey and follow Him, but He will give them eternal life anyway?
Why do you seem to go out of your way to appear so dense?

I've shown many times all the verses that say exactly HOW a person comes to HAVE (means possess) eternal life, all of which it appears you love to ignore, reject, etc.

But for those who actually are interested in HOW to have eternal life (be saved), this list is for them. It's not for those, like you, who aren't interested in truth, but your own opinions and agenda.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

What about these scriptures?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
It's really funny how you take cherry picked verses and FORCE a literal meaning, yet with the very plainly and clear verses on eternal life, you ignore them, or try to shift the subject by making a phony issue about the word "and".

But for those who actually might be interested in how to understand v.15, we need to start at v.14 - We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

John was NOT saying that he or anyone else has passed from death to life because of loving the brethren. The list above proves that one has passed from death to life on the sole basis of believing in Jesus Christ. Instead, he uses the word "know" to declare that he and his fellow apostles experience their passage from death to life through loving their Christian brothers.

The implication is that the passage from death to life, which occurs at the point of salvation (John 5:24, another verse that you refuse to acknowledge or accept), can be experientially known and appreciated through Christian love.

So, v.15 is a contrast; now John addresses the believer who does NOT love his fellow believer or believers.

There is no way a believer who fails to love his brother can have the immediate, experiental knowledge of life John has just spoken about. Therefore, such a person dwells (abides) in death.

Here's the point: If love is an experience of "life", then hatred of one's Christian brother is an experience of "death". Since the first chapter of 1 John establishes the principle and importance of FELLOWSHIP, a concept that you have consistently rejected, I do not expect this explanation will be acceptable to you. But I'm not writing this for you, but for those who may be following this thread and really want the truth.

There is no reasonable objection to the concept of a Christian "abiding in death" in the sense that he has lost touch with the experience of God's life, which is eternal life.

But your failure to recognize the various ways the word "death" is used in the Bible will prevent you from understanding any of this.

So your saying we can hate our brother and we still have eternal life?
Stupid question. Because Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish. But you still refuse to believe what Jesus said.

So are you saying we don’t have to continue in the teachings of Christ, but we will still have God?
No, I'm explaining what the verses mean, which are totally foreign to you.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Here's what I'll answer: honest questions that have no false premise. Your questions are devoid of honesty and truthful premises."

Your question about "lost sheep" is wrought with a false premise.

btw, have you finally stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no
What kind of sheep was that? Lost? Wasn't this one of Jesus's sheep?
Have you finally stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no.

Those who have no clue about the principle of fellowship and that it can be lost, cannot understand these parables.

Just as the man who beats his wife does NOT have fellowship with her. But the relationship exists.

Until one realizes that relationship is permanent and fellowship is dynamic, they CANNOT understand much of Scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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1. What if he was so lost that Jesus couldn't find him anymore?
Please confess and repent of your blatant blasphemy against the Son of God. Why would you even think such evil thoughts?

2. Repent does not mean to confess.
Correct. As I noted above. The parable of the prodigal perfectly illustrates the principle of confession AND repentance.

These are the silly things we have to speak about when the main premise of the entire N.T. is not understood or accepted.

Man is both a physical and spiritual being.

Jesus is THE LIFE.
No Jesus, no life. Easy.
Why do you persist in the erroneous thinking that a person who is placed IN HIM, per the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, can be undone?

It's not smart to persist in a view that cannot be evidenced from Scripture. Eph 1:13,14 does not permit such sloppy thinking

Those who persist in such thinking persist in sloppy thinking.

Think about it.
 
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JLB777

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Why do you seem to go out of your way to appear so dense?

I've shown many times all the verses that say exactly HOW a person comes to HAVE (means possess) eternal life, all of which it appears you love to ignore, reject, etc.

But for those who actually are interested in HOW to have eternal life (be saved), this list is for them. It's not for those, like you, who aren't interested in truth, but your own opinions and agenda.


I have actually used scripture, and have asked you a simple question about them in association with your claims.



My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


My point is the believer is required to hear and obey Him, which results in following.


As a result of hearing and obeying Jesus promises to give those who hear and follow eternal life.

You, contest this point and say Jesus gives eternal life, without the person hearing, obeying and following.


So I asked you -


So what your saying is nobody has to hear and obey and follow Him, but He will give them eternal life anyway?


What about these scriptures?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


  • So your saying we can hate our brother and we still have eternal life?

again

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


  • So are you saying we don’t have to continue in the teachings of Christ, but we will still have God?


I'm trying to see your point of view, so I ask these questions.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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A "lost sheep" a spiritually eternally saved "Child of God" who was lost in sin, forgiven, and returned to the flock.


Actually that is the opposite of what Jesus teaches.


  • A sheep who is lost is unjust; unreconciled to God - a sinner in need of repentance.


  • If the sheep is "found"; repents and returns to God, he becomes just: reconciled to God



The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd. They are his sheep.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


  • Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
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Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
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James 5:19-20


  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
  • and someone turns him back
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
  • will save a soul from death


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.







JLB
 
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JLB777

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These are the silly things we have to speak about when the main premise of the entire N.T. is not understood or accepted.


Yes, I agree.


Christians who live is sin, breaking His commandments will not receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement.


Christians who obey the truth, who by patient continuance in doing good, will receive eternal life on that Day.


  • God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;




JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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I have actually used scripture
Actually, you have abused, misused and rejected Scripture. Repeatedly.

and have asked you a simple question about them in association with your claims.
And your questions are bogus. They are filled with false premises.

So, I'll ask you a legitimate question.

John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 state that those who believe possess eternal life. This is the truth.

Now, can a person who has been given eternal life ever perish? Simple yes or no.

No tricks.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

My point is the believer is required to hear and obey Him, which results in following.
Yes, every believer is commanded (required) to listen and obey. But listening and obeying don't "result" in following.

Listening and obeying IS following. So you're confused.

As a result of hearing and obeying Jesus promises to give those who hear and follow eternal life.
There is nothing in either v.27 or v.28 that supports your false claim. I've just given (again) clear verses about who has eternal life and the basis for having eternal life, which is to believe in Christ.

It's just amazing how dedicated you are to a works system of salvation, just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

You, contest this point and say Jesus gives eternal life, without the person hearing, obeying and following.
I will say it again, from the verses already given in this post, that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. What follows is the command (requirement) to listen and obey, which IS following.

So I asked you -
So what your saying is nobody has to hear and obey and follow Him, but He will give them eternal life anyway?
I've never said that. So quit trying to put false words in my mouth.

What about these scriptures?
I've already explained them, but you are clearly demonstrating NO INTEREST in anything but your own opinion.

I'm trying to see your point of view, so I ask these questions.
JLB
That's a laugh. No, you're NOT trying to see my point of view. In fact, you don't even bother engaging my view. And you try to put false words in my mouth to boot.

Just answer my question above.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So I asked you -

So what your saying is nobody has to hear and obey and follow Him, but He will give them eternal life anyway?
No, I've never said or suggested that.

So your saying we can hate our brother and we still have eternal life?
No, I've never said or suggested that.

So are you saying we don’t have to continue in the teachings of Christ, but we will still have God?
No, I've never said or suggested that.

I'm trying to see your point of view, so I ask these questions.
No, you're not.
 
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