Do your best to explain Romans 5

zoidar · Jul 6, 2018

sdowney717 said:
Those who received Christ as God come in the flesh, as the Lord God, show they had been born again of the will of God, not of the will of man, not of the will of the flesh.
Those who are in the flesh cannot please God, Those who are in the flesh are at enmity with God.

You must be born anew to even see-perceive the kingdom of God, John 3:3
You do not perceive Christ as the Lord God unless you are born anew by Him,
otherwise your mind remains blinded by Satan. You must become a spiritual man first, God is a spirit and those who worship the one True God must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Some remain blinded to the gospel by Satan, but to some the gospel has been revealed by God the Father shining His light in their hearts. Satan can not prevent God from saving whoever He wishes., v6
The gospel though is veiled to them that are persihing. The decision remains the Lord's, salvation is of the Lord, not of your will of the flesh.

2 Corinthians 4 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Light of the Gospel
4 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God,[a] we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants[c] for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God shines that light only in the hearts of those He has made born again first. If you are not born anew, then you are flesh and going to corruption. Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.

We need to repent for God to shine the light into our hearts.

2 Cor 3
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

sdowney717 · Jul 6, 2018

zoidar said:
We need to repent for God to shine the light into our hearts.

2 Cor 3
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

No, the reason they turn to the Lord is they have been born of God by His will.

Otherwise they can not see the kingdom of God, so they can not know who Christ is, they are natural men of the flesh, and the flesh is at war, enmity with God.

The natural person, someone not born anew, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, Christ as God come in the flesh, the kingdom of God, the scriptures as truth, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned and they are in the flesh only, and they can not please God. Spiritually they are dead, unresponsive, hostile, cold and hate Christ and God. Being aligned in the futility of their minds with the flesh, they are of Satan.

John 1
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Corinthians 2
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.[d]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Is there any example in the NT of someone "making Jesus Lord" of their life ?

I think, AS WRITTEN, they must be born again by the will of the Father in heaven, not by the will of man (not by their own will by any means), nor by the will of the flesh (not by anything temporal).....

What they do cannot save themselves; only the Father Himself accomplishes their salvation. Only He is able to, as written.

corinth77777 · Jul 6, 2018

Yes, anytime they obey from the heart.
One of the Laws was thou shall not have any other God before me.
So what ever one obeys they become a slave to.
As for Jesus saying,"I never knew you"
that passage does not seem to say they made Him Lord. It says they called Him Lord. Question...Is the Kingdom of Heaven eternal life?
What do you mean by the father alone accomplishes their salvation

sdowney717 · Jul 7, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Yes, anytime they obey from the heart.
One of the Laws was thou shall not have any other God before me.
So what ever one obeys they become a slave to.
As for Jesus saying,"I never knew you"
that passage does not seem to say they made Him Lord. It says they called Him Lord. Question...Is the Kingdom of Heaven eternal life?
What do you mean by the father alone accomplishes their salvation

So you believe natural men seek after God?
Natural men, looking at what God says about them, do NOT seek Him and no one understands spiritual things naturally.
That is part of why the Father alone accomplishes a person's salvation.
Many people, probably most do not believe in being saved by grace, they also add in their efforts to seek and understand God, which then it is not grace, their salvation is of themselves.
Simply most think all someone needs to do is believe and if they do not believe they are, stupid, uneducated, stubborn, resistant to God's wooing them, have not heard the gospel, etc...
But the truth is 100%, no one seeks God or understands, al have turned aside.

Romans 3
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

sdowney717 · Jul 7, 2018

John 3:3, Jesus says

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot PERCEIVE the kingdom of God.”

zoidar · Jul 7, 2018

sdowney717 said:
So you believe natural men seek after God?
Natural men, looking at what God says about them, do NOT seek Him and no one understands spiritual things naturally.
That is part of why the Father alone accomplishes a person's salvation.
Many people, probably most do not believe in being saved by grace, they also add in their efforts to seek and understand God, which then it is not grace, their salvation is of themselves.
Simply most think all someone needs to do is believe and if they do not believe they are, stupid, uneducated, stubborn, resistant to God's wooing them, have not heard the gospel, etc...
But the truth is 100%, no one seeks God or understands, al have turned aside.

Romans 3
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

There is a different understanding of what grace is. The Bible doesn't say grace is without conditions, on the other hand there are plenty of passages that show that grace is conditioned. The Bible says that a person can't be born again without God's mercy and it does say a person can harden his heart, close his ears, and so on.

If I get a job opportunity to help orphans and I say yes to that for a salary of 1000$ a month. At the end of the month I get the check and the boss gave me 1000000$. Wouldn't that be grace according to you Sdowney? And how much of that grace would have been given me if I turned down the job offer because I felt that the salary was to low?

sdowney717 · Jul 7, 2018

zoidar said:
There is a different understanding of what grace is. The Bible doesn't say grace is without conditions, on the other hand there are plenty of passages that show that grace is conditioned. The Bible says that a person can't be born again without God's mercy and it does say a person can harden his heart, close his ears, and so on.

If I get a job opportunity to help orphans and I say yes to that for a salary of 1000$ a month. At the end of the month I get the check and the boss gave me 1000000$. Wouldn't that be grace according to you Sdowney? And how much of that grace would have been given me if I turned down the job offer because I felt that the salary was to low?

All people are naturally hardened due to their fallen state, due to their evil nature.
You must be supernaturally granted and enabled to come to Christ.
Not everyone get granted as Jesus teaches in John 6:60-66, which is why some of His disciples walked no more with Him.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard [this], said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?

61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble?

62 [What] then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

zoidar · Jul 7, 2018

sdowney717 said:
All people are naturally hardened due to their fallen state, due to their evil nature.
You must be supernaturally granted and enabled to come to Christ.
Not everyone get granted as Jesus teaches in John 6:60-66, which is why some of His disciples walked no more with Him.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard [this], said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?

61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble?

62 [What] then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

We see this very differently. I believe God through the Holy Spirit wants everyone to come to faith and be saved. You see it as it's the Father's will to limit His grace, I don't.

sdowney717 · Jul 7, 2018

zoidar said:
We see this very differently. I believe God through the Holy Spirit wants everyone to come to faith and be saved. You see it as it's the Father's will to limit His grace, I don't.

I am sorry your view is not entirely scriptural, as to what actually happens whether God desires all to be saved, what God actually does is call out from all the nations a people for Himself, that would be all those God foreknew as His people.
And we see that actually happening all over the world some are saved, some are not.
Your view says God does not get what He wishes, ny view is God gets what He wishes.
God works ALL THINGS according to the purpose of His will for that thing.
In your view God is a failure.

Ephesians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

FineLinen · Jul 7, 2018

zoidar said:
The difference is that I believe we limit the atonement, not God. Jesus work on the cross is from my view exactly the same for everyone, the difference is if it's receiced or not.

The anology would be: Mankind is in prison, Satan is the jailor. Christ by his death, kicks out and takes the keys from Satan to the prison cells. Mankind is now in a very different situation, wouldn't you say? The people are still in jail, but when a person asks Jesus to be let out, immediately Jesus unlocks the door to the cell. Christ is our VICTOR!

Doesn't limited atonement normally refer to that God limited the atonement, meaningly that Christ death only atoned for the elect, from the objective point of view? By no means I hold on to such an idea. Objectively Christ died for everyone, but the atoning sacrifice is only atoning those that receive.

The Bible tells us that Jesus the Messiah bore the sins of everyone, mankind, the whole world on the cross. That is not the statement of someone believing in limited atonement, is it?

Search "Limited"=

https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?q=limited&t=kjv&s=Bibles

zoidar · Jul 8, 2018

sdowney717 said:
I am sorry your view is not entirely scriptural, as to what actually happens whether God desires all to be saved, what God actually does is call out from all the nations a people for Himself, that would be all those God foreknew as His people.
And we see that actually happening all over the world some are saved, some are not.
Your view says God does not get what He wishes, ny view is God gets what He wishes.
God works ALL THINGS according to the purpose of His will for that thing.
In your view God is a failure.

Nah, my view is that in your view God is a failure, since Christ came to conquer all evil of this world. That is what He intended to do and that is what He did, yet you believe He didn't overwin all forces of evil.

"He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." (Colossians 2:15)

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14)

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (John 12:31)

mark kennedy · Jul 8, 2018

zoidar said:
We see this very differently. I believe God through the Holy Spirit wants everyone to come to faith and be saved. You see it as it's the Father's will to limit His grace, I don't.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the Fathers will to limit God's grace. Could you elaborate a little?

zoidar · Jul 8, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the Fathers will to limit God's grace. Could you elaborate a little?

If the Father has chosen to not give someone grace from a decision that is from a decree that has nothing to do with us, would be limiting His grace.

mark kennedy · Jul 8, 2018

zoidar said:
If the Father has chosen to not give someone grace from a decision that is from a decree that has nothing to do with us, would be limiting his grace.

I kind of get uour meaning but is this a time of decision like conversion or some kind of moral dilemma?

zoidar · Jul 8, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I kind of get uour meaning but is this a time of decision like conversion or some kind of moral dilemma?

It all boils down to what Jesus came to accomplish on the cross, was it a move from God to set mankind free or was it to set some men free?

mark kennedy · Jul 8, 2018

zoidar said:
It all boils down to what Jesus came to accomplish on the cross, was it a move from God to set mankind free or was it to set some men free?

You do know not all men are willing to receive that message of the cross right? The message is to who so ever will and I realize God wants to extend his grace to all, but not all will receive it, you do know that right?

corinth77777 · Jul 8, 2018

sdowney717 said:
So you believe natural men seek after God?
Natural men, looking at what God says about them, do NOT seek Him and no one understands spiritual things naturally.
That is part of why the Father alone accomplishes a person's salvation.
Many people, probably most do not believe in being saved by grace, they also add in their efforts to seek and understand God, which then it is not grace, their salvation is of themselves.
Simply most think all someone needs to do is believe and if they do not believe they are, stupid, uneducated, stubborn, resistant to God's wooing them, have not heard the gospel, etc...
But the truth is 100%, no one seeks God or understands, al have turned aside.

Romans 3
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

zoidar · Jul 8, 2018

mark kennedy said:
You do know not all men are willing to receive that message of the cross right? The message is to who so ever will and I realize God wants to extend his grace to all, but not all will receive it, you do know that right?

The message is for all men, but yes, not everyone is willing.

sdowney717 · Jul 8, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

But who is Christ speaking to , unbelievers??
I can see by what you posted you do not believe the scripture, scripture says no one seeks for God.
You do not believe 'we are saved by grace', you believe in a grace that you add on things about yourself to bring about your salvation. Grace is not man seeking God.
But see, if a man is born again first, without which the man can not perceive the kingdom of God, then it is entirely 100% all grace that you are saved, not of your ability or works, nothing of the man, all of God. You believe man works with God synergistically, I say the outcome is predetermined by God, not man who He saves. God when He makes you born anew, you are changed and taught by Him and all of those born anew eventually come to Christ, just as Christ says in John 3 and John 6.

In Matthew 6, Christ is not preaching to unbelievers telling them to seek Him-God. GOD IS NOT THE FATHER OF UNBELIEVERS
30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and green and tomorrow is tossed into the furnace, will He not much more surely clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?

32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.

33 But seek ([z]aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness ([aa]His way of doing and being right), and then all these things [ab]taken together will be given you besides.

34 So do not worry or be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will have worries and anxieties of its own. Sufficient for each day is its own trouble.

Do your best to explain Romans 5

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