It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?
Upvote
0
It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?begin quote
I was going to say the same thing to you. Except for a brief stint of forced exile. Don't ask. I have been right here. I think Jesus covered the evidence portion very well in Matt 25.
DerAlter, you must pay better attention. I asked you only to comment on Matt. 25 and what are the qualifications (according to the text of said passage) of being a goat nation and #2 being a sheep nation.It is wonderful seeing you again Der Alter after all these years! Can you disclose to us what are the qualifications for being a sheep nation (according to the context of Matt.25) and the goat nations of the same?
I was going to say the same thing to you. Except for a brief stint of forced exile. Don't ask. I have been right here. I think Jesus covered the evidence portion very well in Matt 25.
Mar 3:35
(35) For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luk 12:8
(8) And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Joh 3:15
(15) that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Mar 16:16
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Shame on you! Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. No, not every person will be reconciled to God because of divine mercy and love. The scripture shows that some will suffer eternal extinction!None of that addresses the arguments i've made in the OP in regards to the title of this thread:
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)? If you want to discuss other passages of Scriptures, perhaps you should start your own thread on such. Or search the forum where universalists, myself included, have previously addressed them before.
I posted the scripture for the requirements to be found a sheep and the actions which demonstrate that one possesses the requirements. I don't believe that there are sheep nations and goat nations, individuals but not nations.DerAlter, you must pay better attention. I asked you only to comment on Matt. 25 and what are the qualifications (according to the text of said passage) of being a goat nation and #2 being a sheep nation.
I posted the scripture for the requirements to be found a sheep and the actions which demonstrate that one possesses the requirements. I don't believe that there are sheep nations and goat nations, individuals but not nations.
Shame on you!
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.My answer to your post is the same as before:
None of that directly addresses the arguments i've made in the OP in regards to the title of this thread:
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
If you want to discuss other passages of Scriptures, perhaps you should start your own thread on such. Or search the forum where universalists, myself included, have previously addressed them before.
Bible Threatenings Explained
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own mind; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
destruction age-during [G166] [YLT]and pay the penalty of everlasting [G166] destruction [DARBY]
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [G166] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46, And these shall go away into everlasting destruction: but the righteous into life eternal.
G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
κόλασιν of divine retribution, Ev.Matt.25.46, al.: pl., Pl.Prt.323e, al., Phld.Ir.p.52 W.
late Old English wilde fyr "destructive fire" From c. 1300 as "Greek fire," also fire rained down from the sky as divine retribution
see Emphatic Dialog 1942 "cast off into everlasting destruction" ; Matthew 21:41; Matthew 3:12; matthew 13:48-50That doesn't address & refute what the OP says. See also:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/for-the-lord-will-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/
see Emphatic Dialog 1942 "cast off into everlasting destruction" ; Matthew 21:41; Matthew 3:12; matthew 13:48-50
Huh?Sir, can you tell me what the "Emphatic Dialog 1942" is? Or did you mean the New Testament translation called the "Emphatic Diaglott"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_Diaglott
The 1869 version of the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson did not say "everlasting destruction", but "destruction age-lasting":
9 who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him
A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:
"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."
https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/
As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":
A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331
Compare that above statement to:
"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2930314-what-does-matthew-25-46-mean-3.html#post52193512
παντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώσaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death
3:12 Whose FAN is in his HAND, and he will thoroughly purge his FLOOR, and gather his WHEAT into the garner; but He will burn up the CHAFF with unquenchable Fire.
G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.The Bible never speaks of "eternal death". To the contrary, death is to be abolished (1 Cor.15:26, etc).
Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.
Wheat is useful to the farmer for food. Chaff is useless, unless it is used for fuel. That occurs by burning it, as in Mt.3:12. Of course burned chaff is not annihilated but changed into something else. This verse does not address the final destiny of people's souls. It doesn't even mention the word "soul", let alone any soul is ever annihilated & God Himself is powerless to resurrect that soul. Neither does it state the wheat & chaff represent different people rather than 2 parts of one person. In fact the previous verse said they would be baptized in the "Holy Spirit and fire" (v.11). Not one or the other. That is salvation. And it was spoken to the Pharisees & Sadduccees whom John called a "generation of vipers" (v.7).
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
G2586 καπνός Of uncertain affinity; smoke: - smoke.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall be destroyed [G3754], and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 Samuel 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it
Job 41:20 For out of his nostrils comes smoke, as out of a of a burning furnace with coals of fire
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Psalms 18:8 In His anger ascended a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth were devoured coals: and they were lit by Him.
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Job 21:18 They are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth away. Psalms 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psalms 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Hosiah 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.
Jeremiah 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Matthew 3:12 Whose winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thourghly cleanse His floor, and gather His wheat into the repository; but He shall incinerate the chaff with inextinguishable fire. κατακαίω to burn down (to the ground), that is, consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).
By "the chaff", are meant wicked and ungodly persons, such as are destitute of the grace of God, whether professors, or profane; being empty, barren, and unfruitful; and so good for nothing but the fire, which therefore "he will burn with unquenchable fire", of divine wrath and vengeance: an allusion to a custom among the Jews, who, when they purified the increase of their unclean fields, gathered it together in an "area" or floor, in the midst of them, and then sifted it with sieves; one sort with two sieves, another with three, that they might thoroughly purge it, and burnt the chaff and stalks (p); see Is 5:24.[Gill]
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.That ignores what i posted to you the other day re that verse:
Chaff is neither annihilated forever or eternally tortured. When burned it is transformed into something else & ascends upwards towards heaven. Wheat is quite useful for food...tares are quite useless for food, but are useful for fuel, but only if burned as they are in Mt. 3:12.
Mark 9:49 For everyone will be salted with fire.
Salt have lost its savour - That is, if it has become tasteless, or has lost its preserving properties. The salt used in this country is a chemical compound - chloride of sodium - and if the saltness were lost, or it were to lose its savor, there would be nothing remaining. I saw large quantities of it literally thrown into the street, to be trodden underfoot by people and beasts. It was ‘good for nothing.’ Indeed, it is a well-known fact that the salt of this country, when in contact with the ground, or exposed to rain and sun, does become insipid and useless. There is no place about the house, yard, or garden where it can be tolerated. No man will allow it to be thrown on to his field, and the only place for it is the street, and there it is cast to be trodden underfoot of men.” Matthew 5:13 [BARNES]
it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot. as their usefulness is gone, so, generally speaking, it is never retrieved; they are cast out of the churches of Christ, and are treated with contempt by everyone.(k) T. Bab. Betzah, fol. 14. 1. [GILL]
is fit for no place but the streets (see Thomson’s The Land and the Book, Lond., 1869, p. 381).[Bullinger]