Problem with Election

JIMINZ said:

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I hear more rhetoric from you but very little of the documentation I asked you about.

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Rhetoric?

JIMINZ said:

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I hear more rhetoric from you but very little of the documentation I asked you about.

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The Lord is great because he saves people from hell, not because he sends people there. Sometimes you have to put the book down and think.

SkyWriting said:

It's impossible for man to reconcile the two ideas of God knowing everything with our Free Will.

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I understand that the only way you can know the future is if you have control of it.

Humans make a lot of choices in their wills, but they often are proven not to have the ability to cause what they have chosen.

And, by the way,

"God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5.

So, humans in their pride might have some sort of free will, but God is resisting them. They are not the ones who really have control.

GodsGrace101 said:

Do you see the word FOREKNOW?

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Your point?
I have an idea as to what your pointing at, (Saying) and I hope you do.

JIMINZ said:

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Sure if you say so, it must be true.

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Well, I am glad that you have come to the realization of where you can get the truth.

Greg Merrill said:

Deuteronomy 30:19 is good to start with. Joshua 24:15 is also good.

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They were given a choice to make, they did not come to the point of decision on their own, they were confronted to chose, it doesn't really describe the Free Will your espousing.

I put on white socks today, does that mean I have Free Will, I'm going to have hot dogs for supper, is that my Free Will being expressed?

NO!!

Greg Merrill said:

Well, I am glad that you have come to the realization of where you can get the truth.

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It took him a while.

What truly amazes me is how long this Calvinistic interpretation debate goes on. That both sides can't come to a clear understanding of what the Bible really teaches, and be in complete unity upon it. Calvinists usually don't persuade Armenians to their side, or vice versa, or come to realize that both those groups have their problems and that the real solution is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

GodsGrace101 said:

I only write what I'm sure of.

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No you voice opinion, of what you think is true.

GodsGrace101 said:

It is more, but I'm on a phone...

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Then get to a computer where you are then able to expound on your thoughts without being hindered.

Your continual one liners are annoying.

JIMINZ said:

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They were given a choice to make, they did not come to the point of decision on their own, they were confronted to chose, it doesn't really describe the Free Will your espousing.

I put on white socks today, does that mean I have Free Will, I'm going to have hot dogs for supper, is that my Free Will being expressed?

NO!!

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This may be how You understand it, choose to understand it, or think God makes you choose to understand it, and truly, no offense, but it makes me laugh, then become sad it is so serious, though not dependent on salvation.

JIMINZ said:

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No you voice opinion, of what you think is true.

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Jiminz, you want to argue. I don't. You obviously are set in your thinking, not open to "honest" discovery, but enjoying a debate. I leave this discussion now. As usual, it seems to go nowhere but to frustration. God's best upon you, and wishing you well. Now I'm off to dinner!!!

GodsGrace101 said:

Start with Adam and Eve.
Look up the word Choice in a concordance. Choice implies free will.

Check out Philemon 1:14.
In the NASB it says free will.
In some Bibles it says willing. Same difference.

Check our Revelation 3:20...

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We as Christians don't and should not follow (Believe) what is implied.

Paul never wrote anything nor did he Teach on Free Will, he expounded upon any number of things concerning our Salvation and walk with the Lord, but nowhere does he ever speak about Free Will, and neither do any of the other authors of the New Testament.

Seems strange that something sooooo important to the Christians ability to believe, would be sooooo neglected by the first teachers of the Faith.

It cannot be documented because it was never a reality, you don't understand what Free Will is or what it pertains to.

Can you through your power of Free Will overcome Sin?
If you can, you don't need Jesus Sacrifice.

JIMINZ said:

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I hear more rhetoric from you but very little of the documentation I asked you about.

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Sometimes it's good to listen to what other people say. Rubiks said something very enlightening in post 33.

Greg Merrill said:

Look closely at the context and you can see that it is not predetermined to be saved, but that the saved are predetermined that once saved they will definitely get to heaven.

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Then that is OSAS right?

GodsGrace101 said:

Agreed. Some do feel rather superior. I'm not sure why.

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There's a thread running all the way back to the gnostics. Read Irenaeus to see how superior they thought they were compared to ignorant Christians.

Greg Merrill said:

Jiminz, you want to argue. I don't. You obviously are set in your thinking,

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And your not???

dreadnought said:

Sometimes it's good to listen to what other people say. Rubiks said something very enlightening in post 33.

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Did you understand it?

If so explain it.

Greg Merrill said:

"You have free will to choose but the choices you are choosing from are made by God ." Which should mean you have the choice to accept God or reject God, these being the choices you have been given by God to choose from, not that God makes the choice for you. Therefore irresistible grace should not be recognized as a Biblical doctrine, for grace can be refused by one's choice to reject God if they truly have a choice.

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GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE (before the foundation of the world)

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.

GOD CHOOSES HIS PEOPLE

Exodus 6:7 ‘I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1Pet 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.

Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (12) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

John 10:2-3 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

JIMINZ said:

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Did you understand it?

If so explain it.

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She explained it in two sentences. Hit it right on the nose.

Greg Merrill said:

I understand how Calvinist interpret Romans 9, but all the verses they use from this chapter should be understood that God makes the decisions in these verses based on the clear understanding that people first choose themselves to harden themselves against God, to be vessels of dishonor.

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I'm not a Calvinist, but that is how you box people so that's ok,

I'm not arguing the Calvinist position, but you cannot look into another direction because your right in your thinking and belief, therefore every other belief is categorically wrong.

The Election are not the Christians of today, that is where Calvin and you have missed it.

The Elect were Predestined, but you cannot see it.

It isn't a Calvinistic Belief, Teaching, it an understanding of what Scripture actually says.

Like I said you can go and categorize me as Calvinist, but your wrong.