Must all those whose Christ death atoned for become saved eventually?

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
1. If Christ's death atoned for every fallen human who ever lived or will live &

2. Everyone whose death Christ atoned for will be saved, then

3. Every fallen human who ever has or will exist will be saved.

True or false?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,251
✟48,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The syllogism is valid. Conclusion (3) follows from premises (1) and (2). But it is not sound. Premise (1) is false. Therefore conclusion (3) is false because it's based on a false premise. The Bible teaches:
  1. Jesus died to atone for the sins of his people.
  2. Everyone whose death Christ atoned for will be saved.
  3. Jesus' people will most certainly be saved.
Not everyone is part of the group "Jesus' people", but only those who have been given to him by the Father. This is a group in Scripture known as "the elect" and those whose "names are written in the book of life of the lamb from the foundation of the world."
 
Upvote 0

royal priest

debtor to grace
Nov 1, 2015
2,666
2,655
Northeast, USA
✟188,924.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
1. If Christ's death atoned for every fallen human who ever lived or will live &

2. Everyone whose death Christ atoned for will be saved, then

3. Every fallen human who ever has or will exist will be saved.

True or false?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
You're mixing two major brands of theology: Arminian and Calvinism. For the most part, Arminians say Christ's death is effective only for those who believe, and Calvinists say Jesus died only for those who will believe. So, in either case, not all men will be saved by Jesus' atonement because not all will believe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. ---Charles Haddon Spurgeon"

http://vintage.aomin.org/Was Anyone Saved.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tree of Life
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved. (Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 47.)"

http://vintage.aomin.org/Was Anyone Saved.html
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,251
✟48,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
"We say Christ so died that he infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. ---Charles Haddon Spurgeon"

http://vintage.aomin.org/Was Anyone Saved.html

Note that Spurgeon was a Calvinist. Not a Universalist.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,505
45,436
67
✟2,929,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
An excerpt from Spurgeon's sermon concerning Particular Redemption (or Limited Atonement)

He gave His life "a ransom for many" .. Mark 10:45

"We hold—we are not afraid to say what we believe—that Christ came into this world with the intention of saving “a multitude which no man can number,” and we believe that as the result of this, every person for whom He died must, beyond the shadow of a doubt, be cleansed from sin, and stand, washed in His blood, before the Father’s throne. We do not believe that Christ made any effectual atonement for those who are forever damned, we dare not think that the blood of Christ was ever shed with the intention of saving those whom God foreknew never could be saved, and some of whom were even in hell when Christ, according to some men’s account, died to save them."~Charles H. Spurgeon

From: http://www.spurgeongems.org/tulip-3.pdf

--David

John 3
16 God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life
.​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
God wants everyone to be saved. Through Christ's death, atonement was made for all. Every person can be reconciled to God.

Every indication from what Christ has told us is that not all of them will accept it. So no, God will not "save" them against their will.

This is all we know.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not everyone is part of the group "Jesus' people", but only those who have been given to him by the Father.

Was this referring to a small group of disciples c.30 A.D. at the time Jesus spoke this statement & has no relevance to final destiny? Given to Him for what purpose, to be a light to "the world" for their salvation?

This is a group in Scripture known as "the elect"

Where does Scripture state that only the elect will be saved or the non elect will never be saved? Or that a few will be elect rather than all? If only the elect are to be saved & all are to be saved as per Rom.5:18-19 (& other salvation of all passages), then everyone is elect.

and those whose "names are written in the book of life of the lamb from the foundation of the world."

Where does any Scripture state that anyone will never be written in this book?

Eastern Orthodox & Universalist scholar David Bentley Hart says:

By the same token, I do not understand what relevance to the issue Wills sees in (4) my refusal to render “proörizein” as “to predestine.” After all, one can be predestined to any number of ends, and the later fully developed picture of “hell” need not be one of the destinations on offer. I refuse that translation for the very simple reason that that is not what the word means, even though such a definition has backed its way into some lexicons as a result of theological tradition. The reason that a theology of predestination never took shape in the Greek-speaking Eastern Christian world is because, well, it was Greek-speaking. Again, I lay this out in my postscript.

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"Is predestination only for believers?

Predetermination, or rather, designating beforehand is a scriptural thought, which should be considered in its contexts to determine its scope. That it is applied to the saints cannot bequestioned (Rom.8:29,30; Eph.1:5,11). But it is also applied to the acts of evil men, especially at the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 4:28). Paul, in Ephesians, puts us on the right track when he calls attention to the fact that we were designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11). Predetermination is only one aspect of God's larger purpose. There is a double harmony in this verse. The pre-determination agrees with the purpose, and that agrees with the counsel of His will. The latter two are concerned with all which is headed up in the Christ, both that in the heavens and that on the earth (v.10).

The same agreement is seen in connection with pre-designation in the conclusion of the first part of Paul's epistle to the Romans. We are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving Him, according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand... (Rom.8:28,29). God cannot confine Himself in His working to the saints alone because they are vitally affected by their environment, sinners as well as saints, things as well as persons. Consequently, while only those who love God are spoken of as designated beforehand for special blessing, this involves a previous purpose in regard to all as well as them. And the purpose must have been formed in God's mind before its execution or it would lack the essential sense conveyed by the elements of the original word, BEFORE-PLACing.

The divine process, expressed in human terms, but refined by divine usage, is this: God wills to reveal Himself. He takes counsel with Himself, as there was none other. As a result, He forms a purpose or plans all to the consummation. Some are chosen or selected and designated beforehand to be associated with Him in the execution of His purpose, and have a special place in His plan. What is true of them is not said of all, and should not be attributed to them. All will be saved, but only those chosen have eonian salvation. Only the members of the government in the United States are elected. The rest of us are not elected to be private citizens. Neither are the bulk of mankind chosen not to be saints. Saints alone are selected according to His purpose.

God is not a man, so we cannot reason from our standpoint to His. Yet a wise man will act more like God than a fool. As I did much of the work myself on the first house I built, I made no detailed plans, thinking I could save myself that effort. But experience taught me the folly of this. So, when I built my last house, I had an architect make detailed drawings from my full sketches. Alterations, while building, are vexatious and expensive. That is doubtless why God's plans show so much detail. Of course it could not all be revealed to us because of our limitations. But some prophecies of the future are most minute in their descriptions, and these are only samples of God's foreknowledge.

What a marvelous revelation it was for our hearts when we first saw that God had a purpose, or plan! He knows all beforehand because He created all and operates all according to the counsel of His will. This word, purpose, is the one which tells us of God's activity in respect to all things before they enter the sphere of His operations. Nothing is left to chance. And the purpose is based upon counsel, not guesswork, and conformed to His will. He has a definite object in view, and has planned all beforehand, so that He will be All in all at the consummation. Let us keep this order. God's will leads to counsel, and counsel presents a plan or purpose which is for all, and not till then are election and predesignation introduced for some.

Part Four
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Site Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Where does Scripture state that only the elect will be saved or the non elect will never be saved? Or that a few will be elect rather than all? If only the elect are to be saved & all are to be saved as per Rom.5:18-19 (& other salvation of all passages), then everyone is elect.

Romans 8 and 9 explains what it is to be elect real well. The whole Bible points towards a heaven and a hell.

M-Bob
 
  • Agree
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
1. If Christ's death atoned for every fallen human who ever lived or will live ....
I stopped there, because I recently noticed a distinction between Christ's sacrifice and Old Covenant sacrifices. Old Covenant sacrifices atoned for sin (covering sin) but Jesus said that was weak and useless. He, instead, "took away the sin of this world". Maybe the implications of that is where we should begin?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I stopped there, because I recently noticed a distinction between Christ's sacrifice and Old Covenant sacrifices. Old Covenant sacrifices atoned for sin (covering sin) but Jesus said that was weak and useless. He, instead, "took away the sin of this world". Maybe the implications of that is where we should begin?

Indeed.

Christ did take away the sin of the world.

I suppose some choose not to accept that though.

But it's a good starting place. Not trying to direct where you would go from there. I'm interested to see. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I stopped there, because I recently noticed a distinction between Christ's sacrifice and Old Covenant sacrifices. Old Covenant sacrifices atoned for sin (covering sin) but Jesus said that was weak and useless. He, instead, "took away the sin of this world". Maybe the implications of that is where we should begin?

One viewpoint is Christ took away, in some sense, at Calvary where He was crucified, the "sin of the world". Yet we still see sin in the world, men still need to repent & confess their sins & be washed from them & overcome sin, etc. Another view is He didn't take away sin at Calvary but that through His sacrifice as the Lamb of God this is guaranteed to occur in the future. Jn.1:29 doesn't state when He will be taking away sin:

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Another verse to consider is 1 Peter 2:24:

Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

"Bare our sins . . . on the tree.—This brings us face to face with a great mystery; and to add to the difficulty of the interpretation, almost each word is capable of being taken in several different ways." 1 Peter 2:24 Commentaries: and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

1 Peter 2:24 says Christ not only bore our sins on the cross, but also healed us by His stripes. Yet we do not now see the whole world "healed". Does it require faith before this becomes a reality in our lives?

Did Christ already "do away with" sin, or does this await a future time called "the end of the ages":

Heb.9:26 But now He has appeared once for all upon the basis of/with a view to the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Christ also defeated death by His death - a major focus of the early Christians. Yes we still die, and will continue to until Christ returns.

We have certain possibilities open to us through Christ, but some things that will not be fulfilled in the earth yet.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟825,826.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You need to understand the whole atonement “process”, since Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was only the atonement sacrifice referred to as just the ransom payment.

At least understand atonement from the first century Jewish perspective: God had provided a way for all Jews to have their unintentional sins atoned for, but that does not mean all Jews had their unintentional sins atoned. The sacrifice for atoning unintentional sins was not all there was to the atonement process and the sinner himself had a part to play.

Christ is referred to only as the “atonement sacrifice” and not as the “atonement” itself. Forgiveness was granted by God to the unintentional sinner only after the atonement process was correctly completed in full.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,505
45,436
67
✟2,929,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I stopped there, because I recently noticed a distinction between Christ's sacrifice and Old Covenant sacrifices. Old Covenant sacrifices atoned for sin (covering sin) but Jesus said that was weak and useless. He, instead, "took away the sin of this world". Maybe the implications of that is where we should begin?
Biblically, the Lamb of God taking away the sin of "the world" speaks to all human beings without distinction (IOW, this Atonement, unlike Israel's animal sacrifices, is meant for the Greek/Gentile Nations, as well the Jews, of course).

However, taking away the "sin" (singular) of the world does not mean that the Lord's sacrifice will atone for the sins of all human beings without exception (as the prologue .. John 1:11-12, along with much of the rest of the Bible, makes clear for us ).

Yours and His,
David

Romans 1
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
.
 
Upvote 0