New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration

Biblewriter

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Wait a sec...you just said He doesn't need DNA to know.

Now you say He does.

Which is it?
I said He did not need DNA. And I said He already knows the genealogy of every individual on the face of the earth. The Israel which will eventually be delivered is that portion of the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel that shares the faith of their father Abraham. Any person who is not BOTH a physical descendant of ancient Israel AND a child of God by faith, is not a part of the Israel of God. And not even one scripture says otherwise.
 
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BABerean2

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Any person who is not BOTH a physical descendant of ancient Israel AND a child of God by faith, is not a part of the Israel of God. And not even one scripture says otherwise.



1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.




1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


Gal 6:14 But it's unthinkable that I could ever brag about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. By his cross my relationship to the world and its relationship to me have been crucified.

Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.



.
 
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jgr

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I said He did not need DNA. And I said He already knows the genealogy of every individual on the face of the earth.

And how does He know that genealogy?
Would it be by the DNA that He Himself has created?
What else would it be by?
And when everyone on earth possesses some amount of that DNA, what other criteria will He use?
How about the only criteria He has ever used -- faith and obedience?

The Israel which will eventually be delivered is that portion of the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel that shares the faith of their father Abraham.

When anyone, Jew or Gentile, receives Christ, he/she is immediately delivered to become a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) and be added to the Church, the Israel of God. There's nothing eventual about that deliverance. It's a "real time" event for everyone.

Any person who is not BOTH a physical descendant of ancient Israel AND a child of God by faith, is not a part of the Israel of God.

Not according to Gal. 3:28,29 and 6:14-16. What is your Scripture?
 
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claninja

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So- you actually believe that there will be a time when the entire nation of Israel will again inhabit their ancient homeland, be united under a single king, and worship their God with animal sacrifices?

How many times do I have to type this, I believe God did/will fulfill all of his OT promises to Israel. Like I have said before there is difference in beliefs about how God fulfills them and who Israel is, but never the less, God did/will fulfill all he has promised. Now getting into literal and spiritually fulfilled prophecies would take a while and a new thread is probably needed for that.

Again, I have had MANY deny that these things will actually happen, right in this forum.

Many may just disagree with how you believe they are fulfilled. That is not the same as people saying God will not fulfill OT promises to Israel.

But I am not going to bother to go back and dig them up.
If you are going to make accusations, you better take the time to back them up.
 
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Biblewriter

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How many times do I have to type this, I believe God did/will fulfill all of his OT promises to Israel. Like I have said before there is difference in beliefs about how God fulfills them and who Israel is, but never the less, God did/will fulfill all he has promised. Now getting into literal and spiritually fulfilled prophecies would take a while and a new thread is probably needed for that.



Many may just disagree with how you believe they are fulfilled. That is not the same as people saying God will not fulfill OT promises to Israel.


If you are going to make accusations, you better take the time to back them up.

The only thing I need to back up the "accusation," is to quote your own words back to you.

"Now getting into literal and spiritually fulfilled prophecies would take a while and a new thread is probably needed for that."

There is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that there is a day coming when Israel will have the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47. And there is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that the land so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47 will be divided among the twelve tribes in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.

Now either this will happen, or it will not. There is no middle ground available. You claim that you believe that this prophecy will be fulfilled, yet you deny that this will actually happen.

Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that AFTER Messiah returns, He will cause all Israel to return to the land. And Ezekiel 20 explicitly says that as they return, He will purge out all the rebels from their midst, causing them to leave the place where they had been dwelling, but not allowing them to enter the land. Now there is no logical way to interpret such a prophecy "spiritually." So when you deny that these things will actually happen, you are denying that these prophecies will actually be fulfilled. And all your protesting is without merit.
 
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BABerean2

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The only thing I need to back up the "accusation," is to quote your own words back to you.

"Now getting into literal and spiritually fulfilled prophecies would take a while and a new thread is probably needed for that."

There is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that there is a day coming when Israel will have the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47. And there is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that the land so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47 will be divided among the twelve tribes in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.

Now either this will happen, or it will not. There is no middle ground available. You claim that you believe that this prophecy will be fulfilled, yet you deny that this will actually happen.

Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that AFTER Messiah returns, He will cause all Israel to return to the land. And Ezekiel 20 explicitly says that as they return, He will purge out all the rebels from their midst, causing them to leave the place where they had been dwelling, but not allowing them to enter the land. Now there is no logical way to interpret such a prophecy "spiritually." So when you deny that these things will actually happen, you are denying that these prophecies will actually be fulfilled. And all your protesting is without merit.

Did ever stop to think that these things could happen after the resurrection of the dead, when many of those from the 12 tribes will come back to life, and many of these things described in the Old Testament could literally become a reality on the New Earth?

The New Earth will one day be a literal reality. It will be just as real as the earth we now live on.

.
 
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Did ever stop to think that these things could happen after the resurrection of the dead, when many of those from the 12 tribes will come back to life, and many of these things described in the Old Testament could literally become a reality on the New Earth?

The New Earth will one day be a literal reality. It will be just as real as the earth we now live on.

.
I am not speaking of things that "might" happen, but of what the scriptures explicitly say will happen.
 
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claninja

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The only thing I need to back up the "accusation," is to quote your own words back to you.


"Now getting into literal and spiritually fulfilled prophecies would take a while and a new thread is probably needed for that."


Where in here did I say the OT promises would not/will not be fulfilled to Israel?


There is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that there is a day coming when Israel will have the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47. And there is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that the land so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47 will be divided among the twelve tribes in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.


In order to be born again, do you literally come through your mother's womb a second time? No of course not. But if you cannot understand the earthly pictures used to describe heavenly truths, you will never fully understand the heavenly truths.


John 3:12
have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?


The earthly temple was only a lesser copy of the true one, heaven itself. The law was a shadow of the good things to come to the Israelites, and they did come.


Hebrews 9:23-24
23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence


Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves


The true promise land is not the earthly, that was a lesser copy of the heavenly land. The true promise land is what the saints awaited to receive.


Hebrews 11:14-16
People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. IF they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


Now either this will happen, or it will not. There is no middle ground available. You claim that you believe that this prophecy will be fulfilled, yet you deny that this will actually happen.


Again, you are making false accusations, I believe it fulfilled and happened/will happen because of Christ.


All the promises of God are yes in Christ. The Jews that were hardened had failed to see this.


2 Corinthans 1:20
20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.


Christ is the way, the truth, and the life
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life
Christ is the bread of life
John 6:35 Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life
Christ is the light of the world
John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world
Christ is the resurrection
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection
Christ is the source of the living water
John 7:38 To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’
Christ is our King and high priest
Hebrews 7:17 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”a
Christ is the temple
John 2:21-22 But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Christ is the rest/the promise land
Hebrews 4:8-10 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

There is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that there is a day coming when Israel will have the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47. And there is no logical way to "spiritually" fulfill a prophecy that the land so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47 will be divided among the twelve tribes in the way so precisely specified in Ezekiel 48.


I disagree. Let's examine Ezekiel 40-48


Ezekiel 40-43: The New Temple

1.) There were no orders for Israelites to build the Ezekiel temple. Christ fulfilled it.
John 2:20 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”


2.) The Israelites were to look at the temple plans and be ashamed. Christ Fulfilled this.
Acts 2:37 37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”


3.) The Lord would dwell among Israel in his temple. Christ Fulfilled this.
Ephesians 2:19-22
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.



_________________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 44: Levitical Priest duties Fulfilled because of Christ


1 Peter 2:5
As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men, but chosen and precious in God’s sight, you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


Hebrews 13:15-16
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that confess His name. And do not neglect to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

________________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 45: The Prince's duties are fulfilled in Christ


Ezekiel 45:17
shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.


Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ


Hebrews 9:10
They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform


Hebrews 9:11-12
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation). He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 46: The Prince's inheritance is fulfilled in Christ

Ezekiel 46:16-18

Thus says the Lord God: If the prince makes a gift to any of his sons as his inheritance, it shall belong to his sons. It is their property by inheritance. 17But if he makes a gift out of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his to the year of liberty. Then it shall revert to the prince; surely it is his inheritance—it shall belong to his sons. 18The prince shall not take any of the inheritance of the people, thrusting them out of their property. He shall give his sons their inheritance out of his own property, so that none of my people shall be scattered from his property.”


Galatians 3:16

16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.


Galatians 3:29

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



**Heirs to what? the promises to Abraham, this includes the land.

________________________________________________________________________________


Ezekiel 47-48: Promise land: a picture of the true heavenly promise land; which is fulfilled in Christ

Hebrews 11:13-16
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.


Galatians 4:30
30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman (Physical Jerusalem) and her son, for the son of the slave woman(Physical Jerusalem) shall not inherit with the son of the free woman(heavenly Jerusalem).

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


________________________________________________________________________________

There are several things missing from Ezekiel's temple. Why?


1.) No wall of partition. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility


2.) No court for women. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Galatians 3: 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


3.) No wash basin. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:22 us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.


4.) No lampstand. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”


5.) No table of showbread. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty


6.) No alter of incense. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people


7.) No Curtain. Why? because Christ fulfills it:
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body
 
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Biblewriter

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Where in here did I say the OT promises would not/will not be fulfilled to Israel?





In order to be born again, do you literally come through your mother's womb a second time? No of course not. But if you cannot understand the earthly pictures used to describe heavenly truths, you will never fully understand the heavenly truths.


John 3:12
have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?


The earthly temple was only a lesser copy of the true one, heaven itself. The law was a shadow of the good things to come to the Israelites, and they did come.


Hebrews 9:23-24
23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence


Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves


The true promise land is not the earthly, that was a lesser copy of the heavenly land. The true promise land is what the saints awaited to receive.


Hebrews 11:14-16
People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. IF they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.





Again, you are making false accusations, I believe it fulfilled and happened/will happen because of Christ.


All the promises of God are yes in Christ. The Jews that were hardened had failed to see this.


2 Corinthans 1:20
20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.


Christ is the way, the truth, and the life
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life
Christ is the bread of life
John 6:35 Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life
Christ is the light of the world
John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world
Christ is the resurrection
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection
Christ is the source of the living water
John 7:38 To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’
Christ is our King and high priest
Hebrews 7:17 For it is testified: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”a
Christ is the temple
John 2:21-22 But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Christ is the rest/the promise land
Hebrews 4:8-10 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.




I disagree. Let's examine Ezekiel 40-48


Ezekiel 40-43: The New Temple

1.) There were no orders for Israelites to build the Ezekiel temple. Christ fulfilled it.
John 2:20 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”


2.) The Israelites were to look at the temple plans and be ashamed. Christ Fulfilled this.
Acts 2:37 37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”


3.) The Lord would dwell among Israel in his temple. Christ Fulfilled this.
Ephesians 2:19-22
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.



_________________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 44: Levitical Priest duties Fulfilled because of Christ


1 Peter 2:5
As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men, but chosen and precious in God’s sight, you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


Hebrews 13:15-16
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise, the fruit of lips that confess His name. And do not neglect to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

________________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 45: The Prince's duties are fulfilled in Christ


Ezekiel 45:17
shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.


Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ


Hebrews 9:10
They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform


Hebrews 9:11-12
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation). He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 46: The Prince's inheritance is fulfilled in Christ

Ezekiel 46:16-18

Thus says the Lord God: If the prince makes a gift to any of his sons as his inheritance, it shall belong to his sons. It is their property by inheritance. 17But if he makes a gift out of his inheritance to one of his servants, it shall be his to the year of liberty. Then it shall revert to the prince; surely it is his inheritance—it shall belong to his sons. 18The prince shall not take any of the inheritance of the people, thrusting them out of their property. He shall give his sons their inheritance out of his own property, so that none of my people shall be scattered from his property.”


Galatians 3:16

16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.


Galatians 3:29

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.



**Heirs to what? the promises to Abraham, this includes the land.

________________________________________________________________________________


Ezekiel 47-48: Promise land: a picture of the true heavenly promise land; which is fulfilled in Christ

Hebrews 11:13-16
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.


Galatians 4:30
30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman (Physical Jerusalem) and her son, for the son of the slave woman(Physical Jerusalem) shall not inherit with the son of the free woman(heavenly Jerusalem).

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


________________________________________________________________________________

There are several things missing from Ezekiel's temple. Why?


1.) No wall of partition. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility


2.) No court for women. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Galatians 3: 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


3.) No wash basin. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:22 us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.


4.) No lampstand. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”


5.) No table of showbread. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty


6.) No alter of incense. Why? because Christ fulfills it:

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completelyc those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people


7.) No Curtain. Why? because Christ fulfills it:
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body

The details that I spoke of were a land with specific, well defined borders. You are denying that this will happen. They also included this land being divide in a specific way. You are denying that this will happen.

I said nothing about the temple or the worship in that temple. But the scripture very expressly says it will again take place. You are denying that this will happen.

I totally reject your claim that you are saying that these prophecies will be fulfilled. Right here, you have denied it.

I have no more to say on this.
 
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claninja

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The details that I spoke of were a land with specific, well defined borders. You are denying that this will happen. They also included this land being divide in a specific way. You are denying that this will happen.

I said nothing about the temple or the worship in that temple. But the scripture very expressly says it will again take place. You are denying that this will happen.

I totally reject your claim that you are saying that these prophecies will be fulfilled. Right here, you have denied it.

I have no more to say on this.

Just as the Jews, during the time of Christ, failed to see the heavenly truths beyond the earthly meaning, it appears you have too. I pray that your eyes may see and your ears may hear.

May God bless you on your search for truth. You do have an earnest hunger, so continue to search out Christ, as you have been, in all things. For He is fulfillment of all things.
 
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keras

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The Reformers of the Church generally believed and taught that the Church was Israel. Therefore; all Church members were Israelites by faith.
However they didn’t make clear who exactly the ‘church’ was and to allow anyone who wanted membership, some only after an intensive Bible course, some after a Baptism and some just if they made a donation, has led to much abuse and error within the established Church.

The Jewish people think they have the ancestral right to be God’s people and many today support them in this belief. It is an immutable tenet of the ‘rapture to heaven’ theory, where the Church goes to heaven, while the Jews face tribulation on earth.
This theory isn’t Biblical and contradicts God’s Plans for His faithful people; all those who have freely chosen to believe in Him and keep His Laws now; Jew and Gentile.

John the Baptist told the Jews; God can raise up children for Abraham from these very stones. Matthew 3:9 and Paul said: A person is not a Jew, [Israelite] who is one outwardly, [ethnic descent] but only inwardly. [by the Spirit] Romans 11:13-24

Paul goes on to say: The Jews were cut off, because of unbelief….and Gentiles who are not Israelites by descent, are grafted in to the Olive Tree by belief in Jesus.

Only born again believers, circumcised in their hearts, confessing faith, with true repentance, like the Ethiopian eunuch, should become Church members, by full immersion Baptism as he and Jesus were.
So the established Churches [I capitalize Churches as they are known entities- bricks and mortar] cannot claim to be the congregation [ekklasia] of God. It is only every individual who is Crucified with Jesus and the life they now live is not their life, but that of Jesus who lives within them…., Galatians 2:20, who are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16
They are people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 7:9 All the faithful Christ following people, to whom the Promises and Blessings of God come to and those who will finally fulfil God’s desire for a nation the produces the fruit of being His witnesses and the Light for the nations. Matthew 21:43, Matthew 5:14, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

When the letters to the seven Churches, of Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22 are read and understood, it will be seen that Jesus rewards the victorious or the overcomers, out of each of those seven church types. This proves how not all who belong to a church or those who think their ethnicity will save them, will be saved on the Day the Lord will judge and punish the nations. Zephaniah 3:8, Isaiah 24:1-6, Revelation 6:12-17
 
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jgr

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All the faithful Christ following people, to whom the Promises and Blessings of God come to and those who will finally fulfil God’s desire for a nation the produces the fruit of being His witnesses and the Light for the nations. Matthew 21:43, Matthew 5:14, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

In the Scriptures you cited, that was already being fulfilled, and will continue to be fulfilled to the time of the end.
 
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keras

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In the Scriptures you cited, that was already being fulfilled, and will continue to be fulfilled to the time of the end.
But only in the last hundred years, has there been sufficient numbers to be the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9
 
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jgr

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But only in the last hundred years, has there been sufficient numbers to be the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9
Yes. But every day there are new additions to what will ultimately be that vast multitude. And they began in Christ's time.
 
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keras

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Yes. But every day there are new additions to what will ultimately be that vast multitude. And they began in Christ's time.
The ONLY dead who will be brought back to life when Jesus Returns, are those martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year reign of the Anti-Christ. Revelation 20:4
No other dead are raised until the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

So it is living Christians that we see, Revelation 7:9, in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 2:4-5
 
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Biblewriter

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It took a long time to finish my review of the futurism of Theodore Beza. The transcription was very difficult, and took a long time. But I transcribed all his notes on the portions of the New Testament that are thought to refer to the end times. The document itself plainly stated that the notes on the Revelation were by someone else, so these were not transcribed.

I have finally published my report in the Dispensationalism sub-forum.
 
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jgr

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It took a long time to finish my review of the futurism of Theodore Beza. The transcription was very difficult, and took a long time. But I transcribed all his notes on the portions of the New Testament that are thought to refer to the end times. The document itself plainly stated that the notes on the Revelation were by someone else, so these were not transcribed.

I have finally published my report in the Dispensationalism sub-forum.

I searched for "antichrist" and "rapture" and found one match for each:

"Beza clearly did not have a fully developed concept of futurism, never rising above the common idea of his day, that Popery was the Antichrist, as shown particularly by the notes on 2 Thessalonians 2. But the notes in this work very clearly show at least the beginnings of an understanding of futurism, as currently taught by Dispensationalists."

"For an eventual conversion of all the Jews is an essential part of Dispenstionalism, and any timing of the rapture other than pre-tribulational, eliminates all possibility of an imminent return of Christ."

There were no direct related quotes of Beza himself.

Beza's belief as a Reformer that "Popery was the Antichrist" negates any possibility of his belief in a futurized antichrist.

And "Popery as the Antichrist" and the true Church suffering under it negates any possibility of his belief in a pretrib rapture.

Two indispensable (pun intended) dispensational doctrines nowhere seen from Bro. Beza.

Your transcription efforts are appreciated. But you'll need to find a more convincing example than Bro. Beza.
 
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jgr

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It took a long time to finish my review of the futurism of Theodore Beza. The transcription was very difficult, and took a long time. But I transcribed all his notes on the portions of the New Testament that are thought to refer to the end times. The document itself plainly stated that the notes on the Revelation were by someone else, so these were not transcribed.

I have finally published my report in the Dispensationalism sub-forum.
The following appears in your dissertation:

"We also need to notice that the notes clearly indicate a future time of tribulation, or “miserie.” But we also need to notice that this conclusion is derived, at least in part, from a conclusion that our Lord’s dissertation, as reported in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Like 21 each, while they begin with “the 34 yeeres when al the whole land was wasted, and at length the city of Jerusalem taken,” go on to “those that shall come to passe before the last coming of our Lord.” This is unquestionably directly contradictory to Historicism, at least as it is commonly taught today."

Beza is in fact a faithful historicist, for he acknowledges, as historicism does, the presence of descriptions of both historical and end time events in Matthew 24.

But what would a futurist know about that?

You're confusing historicism and full preterism.
 
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Biblewriter

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The following appears in your dissertation:

"We also need to notice that the notes clearly indicate a future time of tribulation, or “miserie.” But we also need to notice that this conclusion is derived, at least in part, from a conclusion that our Lord’s dissertation, as reported in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Like 21 each, while they begin with “the 34 yeeres when al the whole land was wasted, and at length the city of Jerusalem taken,” go on to “those that shall come to passe before the last coming of our Lord.” This is unquestionably directly contradictory to Historicism, at least as it is commonly taught today."

Beza is in fact a faithful historicist, for he acknowledges, as historicism does, the presence of descriptions of both historical and end time events in Matthew 24.

But what would a futurist know about that?

You're confusing historicism and full preterism.

I will bow to your expertise on the doctrines of Historicists. Unlike others here, I will not insist that you teach things after you say you do not. So I have edited my post to remove my incorrect comment about your doctrine.

But you are totally incorrect about not directly quoting "Bro. Beza." I backed up everything I said about what he taught with multiple exact quotes, as given in L. Tomson's translation published in 1576 and sixteen times more over the next 106 years.
 
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