Millennial Considerations

DavidPT said:

In my view this earth never literally gets burned up. Also per my view, the land remains the same, borders and all, forever, apparently. I'm not one that believes this current earth is totally annihilated and a new one appears in it's place. There will be a new earth alright, so not denying that. But that hardly means where Jerusalem is currently located geographically, as an example, that this will no longer be the case on the new earth. Why wouldn't it be? If man had never fallen, wouldn't everything still be the same anyway, geographically, for forever?

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Thats a nice get-a-round.

And what of Jesus' Statement about the Coming of the lord of the Vineyard in Matt 21:40? Past or future?
Was Jesus right about that or not?

And what do you make of this land promise verse:
Joshua 21:43-45
43 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

Does not your view, in contrast to the scripture above, say "all has not come to pass"?

Lets talk about forever:

In 2 Kings 5 we have the story of Gehazi and Naaman the Lepor.

When Gehazi lied to the prophet, see what the prophet cursed him with:

27 Therefore the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and your descendants forever.”

Woudl you say that Ghehazi remains stricken by leprosy today, and all His descendants as well??

Leveticus 25:29-30
29 And if a man sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year may he redeem it.
30 And if it be not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house that is in the walled city shall be established for ever to him that bought it throughout his generations: it shall not go out in the jubile.

Are ALL houses from the time of leveticus that went through such a sale, STILL TODAY in the posession of the original purchasers?

parousia70 said:

Lets talk about forever:

In 2 Kings 5 we have the story of Gehazi and Naaman the Lepor.

When Gehazi lied to the prophet, see what the prophet cursed him with:

27 Therefore the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and your descendants forever.”

Woudl you say that Ghehazi remains stricken by leprosy today, and all His descendants as well??

Leveticus 25:29-30
29 And if a man sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year may he redeem it.
30 And if it be not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house that is in the walled city shall be established for ever to him that bought it throughout his generations: it shall not go out in the jubile.

Are ALL houses from the time of leveticus that went through such a sale, STILL TODAY in the posession of the original purchasers?

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I do agree that for ever doesn't literally mean this in every place this is used. We have to use common sense of course. But in some places where it is used, it does literally mean forever. Such as in Ezekiel 37:25.

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever(`owlam): and my servant David shall be their prince for ever(`owlam).

If the first `owlam is not meaning literally forever, then neither is the last one. If the last one is meaning literally forever, then so is the first one. That according to one interpreting things in a consistent manner, rather than one who would be cherry picking if one of the `owlam used in that verse is not meaning literally forever, and that other one is meaning literally forever.

So which is it then? Both are meaning literally forever? Neither are meaning literally forever? That are the only two valid options.

parousia70 said:

The challenge you have is with Verse 40.

Jesus stated plainly that the kingdom would be taken away from them and leased to others at the time of "the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" (Matthew 21:40)

So, if Matt 21:43 is past, then so is Matt 21:40

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Yup. Both are in the past.

Obviously the Lord of the vineyard did come 2000 years ago and did take away the kingdom from the Jews who rejected him. And it was given to the Gentiles who accepted him. That's why we are currently reigning in the kingdom.

LastSeven said:

Yup. Both are in the past.

Obviously the Lord of the vineyard did come 2000 years ago and did take away the kingdom from the Jews who rejected him. And it was given to the Gentiles who accepted him. That's why we are currently reigning in the kingdom.

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True, yet none of this explains Acts 1:6-7 though.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

To restore again means something that was previously restored needing restored yet again. Don't see how this can fit the Gentiles in this case. Israel here has to be meaning in a Jewish sense.

DavidPT said:

You seem to be meaning this in future tense. And if so, aren't there many who believe the church is now this Israel in question? If Israel is now the church, why would the church need to be restored?

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Because the majority of Christians always have been Israelites.
We are mostly, the descendants of the House of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria and lost to our knowledge, but not to God's. Amos 9:9 Proved by the fact of the known origins of the Western peoples is the Caucasus region, where Israel was taken to. They left waymarks, dolmens across Europe. Jeremiah 31:21
This truth has been hidden by God, so as the Salvation of Jesus can be spread unhindered by the ancient traditions, as it is in Judah. Paul alludes to this truth in Acts 26:7 and James and Peter also knew who they had to preach to.
We are the Israelites of God, physically and spiritually!

LastSeven said:

What we don't agree on is the definition of "Israel".

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When are you going to give Your definition of Israel ?
How much different can Your definition be?
Israel started with Jacob , and he was no longer called Jacob after God changed his name to Israel . God refers to Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in many places throughout the bible in both the OT and the NT

seventysevens said:

When are you going to give Your definition of Israel ?
How much different can Your definition be?
Israel started with Jacob , and he was no longer called Jacob after God changed his name to Israel . God refers to Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in many places throughout the bible in both the OT and the NT

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Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God. (GW)



1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (KJV)

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keras said:

God WILL restore Israel. But do not think that the Jewish people are all of Israel. Remember that God told Abraham and Jacob, Genesis 35:11, that a multitude of nations would descend from them and we can know who they are from how the prophesies of Jacob and Moses have been fulfilled by them.

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Yes, I understand that the Jews only represent about one third of total Israelites, and that most of the ten tribes were scattered to the West and became the western Christian nations, and many of them would become what Apostle Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" along with believing Gentiles in Ephesians 2. That's how I see the Gen.48 "multitude of nations" prophecy involving Ephraim would be fulfilled.

DavidPT said:

In my view this earth never literally gets burned up. Also per my view, the land remains the same, borders and all, forever, apparently. I'm not one that believes this current earth is totally annihilated and a new one appears in it's place. There will be a new earth alright, so not denying that. But that hardly means where Jerusalem is currently located geographically, as an example, that this will no longer be the case on the new earth. Why wouldn't it be? If man had never fallen, wouldn't everything still be the same anyway, geographically, for forever?

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You dont believe this earth gets burned up?

You deny 2 Peter 3:10-13 This earth is dissolved by fire literally!

Isaiah 24:20 The earth will be removed, it will fall and not rise again.

Malachi 3:2 No human will survive the last day judgment by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13 All mens works will be judged by this fire.

Revelation 21:1-5 This earth has passed away, a completely new creation, in the new heaven, earth, Jerusalem

Davy said:

Yes, I understand that the Jews only represent about one third of total Israelites, and that most of the ten tribes were scattered to the West and became the western Christian nations, and many of them would become what Apostle Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" along with believing Gentiles in Ephesians 2. That's how I see the Gen.48 "multitude of nations" prophecy involving Ephraim would be fulfilled.

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With that truth resolved, it now requires people to read the prophesies about Israel with the view that we Christians are the Israel of God, exactly as Paul says in Galatians 6:16, and they all apply to US.

Stephen Mendes said:

I just started this topic on my Bible Blog with a view to comparing the various beliefs.... one of the biggest problems I find when people start constructing explanations of passages is that anyone can have a go at it.... and there can be as many 'interpretations' as there are people !

Therefore I have to adopt the LITERAL approach (where possible)..... I am absolutely convinced that the Bible is written to be understood by average humans.... it is counterproductive to suppose that God would communicate in such an obscure way that we would have to 'invent' an interpretation to make a passage agree with our 'conceived storyline'.

The evidence suggests that God talks to humans in plain language so as to ensure both understanding and compliance...... it is us, people, who would want to construct alternative interpretations.... so we could either justify ourselves for non-compliance or at least excuse ourselves for misinterpretation and/or lack of understanding the instructions.

Starting with a literal reading of the text (and only interpreting obvious non-literal parts to fit with the literal parts) has to be the 'proper' approach..... the approach that God expects.... otherwise the Bible has NO 'authority' at all ..... and we can make Bible say whatever we want..... and it's quite obvious to me that many groups of people have done that and are quite happy about it too.

Stephen's Bible Insights

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I believe the Bible is absolutely the true Word of God. Often, literal. But there are times when God seems to "pull away" a little---that we "see through the mirror darkly". And that He does this intentionally, because there is no way we could understand the depths and mysteries He knows.

The beginning of Genesis reads like this to me, especially Genesis 1:2. It is not that Genesis is not true (it is). It's that God can only give us so much. He has to tell us at the 30,000 foot level, as if the camera lens is on panoramic because He simply can't zoom in on the details. We can't take it in.

Though Revelation is full of details, the details are "through the mirror darkly". This does not bother me. We started the Scriptures at the 30,000 foot level and so we end there. It is true, but it is a lot of truth yet to be revealed, or perhaps truth we cannot possible understand.

Anyway, my two cents.

keras said:

With that truth resolved, it now requires people to read the prophesies about Israel with the view that we Christians are the Israel of God, exactly as Paul says in Galatians 6:16, and they all apply to US.

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The majority aren't going to know it because much of God's Word is closed off these days, like God said it would be in Amos 8:11-12.

DavidPT said:

True, yet none of this explains Acts 1:6-7 though.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

To restore again means something that was previously restored needing restored yet again. Don't see how this can fit the Gentiles in this case. Israel here has to be meaning in a Jewish sense.

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I'm no Greek scholar so I can't begin to explain why the KJV is using that word, but since most other translations do not use the word "again", I'm gonna go with the majority on this one and assume it shouldn't be there.

seventysevens said:

When are you going to give Your definition of Israel ?

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Simply put, Israel is Christ and those who are in Christ. Which means, by definition, those who reject Christ can not be Israel.

Whatever I can show show you to prove my point, are Bible verses that have already been posted several times in this thread. Bible verses that you must've seen a hundred times before. So don't believe me. Believe Paul and Matthew and Jesus and John.

First of all the word "Israel" literally means prince of God or Kingdom of God. Ever notice that all the angel names also end with "el"? That's because "el" means "God". So these are angels of God, just as Israel is the Prince of God.

There are a number of proofs we can look at to know that Jesus is Israel. Please take your time to read through this and give it some serious thought. If there is a problem in this logic anywhere, please explain. And conversely, if there are some good points in this logic, then accept them.


Israel, Called out of Egypt

Hosea prophecied that Israel would be called out of Egypt.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son

According to Matthew, Hosea's prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus came out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15
and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

So here you have a prophetic interpretation by Matthew, who clear as day, tells us that Jesus Christ is Israel.


Israel, Son of God

Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son

See that? Israel is God's first born son. Obviously there are many references in scripture that tell us Jesus is God's one and only son. Here are just a couple of examples.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

So, if Israel is God's firstborn son and Jesus is God's one and only son, then Israel is Jesus.


Israel, He

In Hosea 14, and other places, we see that Israel is referred to as “he”.

Hosea 14:4-7
I will heal their waywardness
    and love them freely,
    for my anger has turned away from them.
5 I will be like the dew to Israel;
    he will blossom like a lily.
Like a cedar of Lebanon
    he will send down his roots;
6     his young shoots will grow.
His splendor will be like an olive tree,
    his fragrance like a cedar of Lebanon.
7 People will dwell again in his shade;
    they will flourish like the grain,
they will blossom like the vine—
    Israel’s fame will be like the wine of Lebanon.

Numbers 24 (KJV only)
 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. 9 He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

Isaiah 11:16 (KJV)
16 And there shall be a highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.


The Promises Made to Christ

And if you're still not convinced, then consider all those promises made to Israel in the old testament. Galatians 3 tells us that the promises were made not to the physical descendants of Abraham, but to Jesus.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..

So if the promises were made to Israel, and the promises were made to Christ, then Israel is Christ.


Citizenship in Israel

Who is not Israel.

Romans 9:6
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

As you can see, the scripture says that if you are a physical descendant from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that does not mean you are Israel. This is reinforced in Romans 11 by Paul explaining that the branches were broken off from Israel for their unbelief.

Romans 11:20
they were broken off because of unbelief

The same chapter tells us that believers are grafted into the olive tree because of their faith.

Romans 11:17
you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root

So obviously being grafted into a tree is a metaphor for being given citizenship in Israel. (If you don't agree that the olive tree here represents Israel, then what do you think the olive tree represents?)

Ephesians 2:12,19
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household.

Unbelievers are cut off, and believers are grafted into Israel by citizenship through Jesus. And since Jesus is the root of the tree, obviously Jesus is the root of Israel. (If you don't agree that Jesus is the root of Israel, then what is he the root of?)

Revelation 5:5
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed

Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches.  I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Romans 11:16
if the root is holy, so are the branches.

keras said:

Because the majority of Christians always have been Israelites.
We are mostly, the descendants of the House of Israel, taken into exile by Assyria and lost to our knowledge, but not to God's. Amos 9:9 Proved by the fact of the known origins of the Western peoples is the Caucasus region, where Israel was taken to. They left waymarks, dolmens across Europe. Jeremiah 31:21
This truth has been hidden by God, so as the Salvation of Jesus can be spread unhindered by the ancient traditions, as it is in Judah. Paul alludes to this truth in Acts 26:7 and James and Peter also knew who they had to preach to.
We are the Israelites of God, physically and spiritually!

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What are the "Ancient Traditions" By where the word of God could be spread?

Truth7t7 said:

What are the "Ancient Traditions" By where the word of God could be spread?

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What I mean there: is Judaism and all the denominations that force Laws upon their adherents.
The religion of tradition and Laws, that stifles the truths of Christianity.

I agree with much of your post , I can show some clarification . When God said he referred to Israel as his son , it would be the lineage of the people of Israel that would bring forth the savoir of the world -obviously not all of those in the heritage will follow God/Christ but they have the chance to as any other person be they Jew or Gentile - that would bring forth the Son of God - hence the references of Jesus being the son of David when we know David is not Jesus father .

LastSeven said:

First of all the word "Israel" literally means prince of God or Kingdom of God.

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The name Israel actually Literally means :
'Wrestles with God', struggled with God , contended with God

Gen32
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”



There are many references to Jesus return ," thief in the night " etc etc and :
1 Thess
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath

Act1
10 They still had their eyes fixed on the sky as he went away, when two men dressed in white suddenly stood beside them 11 and said, “Galileans, why are you standing there looking up at the sky? This Jesus, who was taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way that you saw him go to heaven.”

Obviously these two angels are saying Jesus will return in bodily form


Isa 62
For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her righteousness shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch.

And why all the hate regarding Israel having been reborn as nation exactly as prophecy said it would happen , since Jesus feet touch the ground at the same place his feet left the ground in Israel it is a truth in God's word , There is a very serious misunderstanding about this which seems to be the reason for the hate , that hate will be a serious thorn in the side of those who speak it.I am not saying you said it but you seem to support it

Jame5
7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains.
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near.
9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

Obviously James is speaking of a future coming of Jesus just as the angels did in Act1

seventysevens said:

What is hard to grasp is why you believe that Jesus has already returned

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Where did you get that idea from? I never said Jesus has returned already.

seventysevens said:

And why all the hate regarding Israel having been reborn as nation

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Hate? Who's hating?