Revelation 20:1-6 A Literal Kingdom?

mark kennedy

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As I said, they can indeed be helpful. That you don't believe usage trumps etymology is your own stumbling block, not mine.

Here, help yourself a bit:

Lets apply your definition of Stoicheion to Hebrews 5:12 and see how it works for ya:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the [Euclids Elements] of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

That's REALLY how you claim we should read Hebrews 5:12?



Rather, I use scripture to interpret scripture to AFFIRM the clear meaning.. you appear to be the one tossing scriptural precident out the window in favor of non scriptural definitions that you MUST apply to the text to conform the text to your previously held view.



You are welcome to that opinion.
Our readers have enough information from each of us to determine for themselves which of our views has the weight of scripture behind it.
Elements: (G4747 στοιχεῖον stoicheion) Any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
  • The letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
  • The elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
  • The heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
  • The elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline, i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry (Outline of Biblical Usage)
Any first thing to include the elements of the natural world. Come on, it could not be easier to understand. The context and actual definition isn't ambiguise.
 
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eleos1954

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The scripture quote is from John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

You say "no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth)"...and it is within the hearts of men...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29

God is a consuming fire. Why burn up the earth when it is within the heart of man, this sin?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The promise is scripture is that by the spirit of Christ living within, we shall overcome...what happened to Adam in the garden will be reconciled back to God. Adam was given a change of eyesight/perception after defying God's commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." and asked "Where art thou?"

Matthew 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

You say "no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth)"

That was meant to compare to any other life in the universe. Meaning: Planet earth is the last place in the universe that has sin on it because God is going to establish his kingdom here.

You say

God is a consuming fire. Why burn up the earth when it is within the heart of man, this sin?

Because at the fall of mankind sin corrupted the entire earth and everything in it, plants, animals etc. It corrupted everything. So makes sense everything has to be destroyed and remade.

Jeremiah 17:9

The Holy Spirit "works on the heart". He first works "on us", calling us to accept Jesus, then he works "in us" he works on changing our heart, showing us our sins that we need to repent of, and then he works "through us" guiding us through the word of God that we may become more "Christ like". It's a life-long process. Now this is a real real real simplistic overview of the Holy Spirit.

You said;

You said; promise is scripture is that by the spirit of Christ living within, we shall overcome...
This is the Holy Spirit working in one life with his help we overcome

what happened to Adam in the garden will be reconciled back to God.
True .... although it has already happened .... it happened when Jesus died on the cross but will not come into complete fulness until Jesus returns, there are still many people to be saved

Like you quoted:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

You said: Adam was given a change of eyesight/perception after defying God's commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." and asked "Where art thou?"

Need more clarification on here (above).

You said:

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

True

You said:

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

True we all have sinful hearts. But with the help of the Holy Spirit He helps us change our hearts through understanding scripture ... and is a process accomplished through the study of Gods word and His (the Holy Spirit) revealing of the truth of same .. it's a life-long process. He teaches, gives us understanding ... we learn as we go. Our knowledge increases as we gain understanding through scripture.
 
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DavidPT

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Notice in the parable that the Nobleman returned to the very servants he left... not to some other generation of servants thousands of years removed, but the very ones he gave the money to.


Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


Explain when and how He did this already. When has any of His servants ever been brought before Him after He had returned following His ascension into heaven? Prove it with Scripture. The text plainly says---And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom---which requires Him physically coming back to the place He initially left, meaning back to the earth in this case. So when did that already take place?

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

A certain nobleman went into a far country---if this part involves a literal bodily leaving, then so must this part----and to return.---involve a literal bodily returning.
 
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parousia70

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Elements: (G4747 στοιχεῖον stoicheion) Any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
  • The letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
  • The elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
  • The heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside
  • The elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline, i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry (Outline of Biblical Usage)
Any first thing to include the elements of the natural world. Come on, it could not be easier to understand. The context and actual definition isn't ambiguise.

ANY first thing we desire?, or is what ever "first thing" determined by the context where we find the word?

Again I submit Hebrews 5:12
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someoneto teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; [STOICHEION] and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Indeed it was those first principles, delivered at Mt Sinai when God "Planted the Heavens and laid the foundations of Earth", ie: formed the Hebrew people into a Covenant nation, and those first principles, along with that covenant nation, was burned with fire in 70 AD, on time, as prophesied, when those Heavens, earth and elements dissolved.
 
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parousia70

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Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

The text says what it says and I take it at face value.

Explain when and how He did this already...Prove it with Scripture.

See Matthew 21:33-45
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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You say "no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth)"

That was meant to compare to any other life in the universe. Meaning: Planet earth is the last place in the universe that has sin on it because God is going to establish his kingdom here.

You say

God is a consuming fire. Why burn up the earth when it is within the heart of man, this sin?

Because at the fall of mankind sin corrupted the entire earth and everything in it, plants, animals etc. It corrupted everything. So makes sense everything has to be destroyed and remade.

Jeremiah 17:9

The Holy Spirit "works on the heart". He first works "on us", calling us to accept Jesus, then he works "in us" he works on changing our heart, showing us our sins that we need to repent of, and then he works "through us" guiding us through the word of God that we may become more "Christ like". It's a life-long process. Now this is a real real real simplistic overview of the Holy Spirit.

You said;

You said; promise is scripture is that by the spirit of Christ living within, we shall overcome...
This is the Holy Spirit working in one life with his help we overcome

what happened to Adam in the garden will be reconciled back to God.
True .... although it has already happened .... it happened when Jesus died on the cross but will not come into complete fulness until Jesus returns, there are still many people to be saved

Like you quoted:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

You said: Adam was given a change of eyesight/perception after defying God's commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." and asked "Where art thou?"

Need more clarification on here (above).

You said:

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

True

You said:

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies

True we all have sinful hearts. But with the help of the Holy Spirit He helps us change our hearts through understanding scripture ... and is a process accomplished through the study of Gods word and His (the Holy Spirit) revealing of the truth of same .. it's a life-long process. He teaches, gives us understanding ... we learn as we go. Our knowledge increases as we gain understanding through scripture.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I know some who 'see'...
 
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mark kennedy

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ANY first thing we desire?, or is what ever "first thing" determined by the context where we find the word?

Again I submit Hebrews 5:12
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someoneto teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; [STOICHEION] and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Indeed it was those first principles, delivered at Mt Sinai when God "Planted the Heavens and laid the foundations of Earth", ie: formed the Hebrew people into a Coveantn nation, that Burned with fire in 70 AD when those Heavens, earth and elements dissolved.
Wrong context, try 2 Peter.
 
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DavidPT

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The text says what it says and I take it at face value.



See Matthew 21:33-45


You apparently don't have a grasp of what is actually being taught in the parable of the pounds. I have since looked for a link that can explain it better than I can, a link where the conclusions there are pretty much the same as mine. I suggest you at least read this article. And if you do, and you still disagree with this interpretation, and prefer yours better, don't know what to tell you then. Because my interpretation of this parable, and the author's interpretation of that parable at that link, are not making nonsense out of the text by having Jesus return before His 2nd coming even takes place like your interpretation seems to be doing.

The parable of the pounds - Lk 19(11-27)
 
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The Times

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Revelation 20:1-6 represents the Lords spiritual realm, there is no time in the spiritual realm, A Thousand years is a day " No Earthly Time" Thousand is not literal.
2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 50:10

In verses 1-6 you see 100% spiritual beings, in the Lord's eternal realm of no time.
Angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, there is no physical earthly kingdom seen, none "A Fairy Tale Teaching"

Thats why this false teaching turns to the Old Testament, trying desparately to create a earthly millennial kingdom, "That Isn't There"!

(Example) Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47, Zechariah 14, these chapters all represent the "Eternal Kingdom" not a earthly one.

This non-literal 1000 year reign is from the Lords earthly ministry to the second advent.

If a future tribulatuon saint dies one week before the second advent, he enters the non-literal 1000 year reign.

"Don't Be Deceived", A 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom Isn't Found In The Holy Scripture.

Matthew 24:23-27 Jesus Warns Against This False Teaching, Jesus Christ Will Not Return To Earth, And Hang Out With Mortal Humans.

"Believe It Not"!

Jesus Christ Is The Lord :)

Truth7t7

You said ........

"Jesus Christ Will Not Return To Earth, And Hang Out With Mortal Humans."

Do you know why this can never happen?

Let me start of by saying that the Jews wait for the 1st advent of Messiah and the Muslims a 2nd advent, with the objective of breaking the CROSS.

Think for a moment and to ponder about it........

Both the unbelieving Jews and the Muslims negate the salvation plan of God, through his anointed Most High Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world on the CROSS.

If Jesus did return to earth, he would undermine his very own cross of salvation.

Secondly.........

The Christian statement of belief, as instructed by Jesus is that we must be born again of water and of Spirit (John 3:5). This means that no one can come to God without the Seal of the Living God who is the Holy Ghost.

As a summary, no one can receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, without the CROSS of Christ and no one can enter the Kingdom of God and in the presence of his Majesty, our Crowned Monarch Jesus, unless they be born again of the Holy Spirit of God.

So it is apparent, that if Jesus is to manifest in the earthly realm as a literal King from a literal earthly Kingdom, this would undermine and contradict the very words he had spoken.

We know brothers and sisters that this can never happen!

So what do we know?

Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. (John 14:19)

The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:17)

The apostles also knew that without the resurrection body after death of the earthly body, they cannot enter into the presence of Jesus Christ.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

If we are still in our earthly flesh, we cannot be in the Lord's glorified presence, unless we put on the immortal heavenly body in the resurrection of the dead.

This means that Jesus can never rule on this earthly realm with fleshies.
 
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DavidPT

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The text says what it says and I take it at face value.



See Matthew 21:33-45


I looked at the passage in Matthew 21:33-45 and failed to see any mention of a return like there is in the pounds parable.

The Greek word for return in Luke 19:12 is hupostrepho.


hupostrepho
hoop-os-tref'-o
from upo - hupo 5259 and strefw - strepho 4762; to turn under (behind), i.e. to return (literally or figuratively):--come again, return (again, back again), turn back (again).


That same Greek word is found nowhere in Matthew 21:33-45 that I can tell. In Luke 19:12 it clearly means come again. That can only mean one thing in this particular case---come again, as in the 2nd coming.
 
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The Times

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There is a literal 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, but it is not what many think.

This is what Jesus said......

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:27)

What this means, is a brilliant coming that will literally engulf, that is consume the very realm that we know as Genesis 1.0.

A lightening is sudden and it engulfs the sky.

Paul highlights Christ's coming as follows....

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

We can certainly realise a common theme here, that is our very reality and existence will change in an instant.

The question is what happens to the old heaven and the old earth?

Totally obliterated!

This is the scenario I would like to share with you brothers and sisters......

Imagine you are in a dying world, that is barely habitable, pitch black darkness with thick clouds and monsoonal rains, earth continuously quaking, air barely breatable and the smell of death everywhere, because the dead are not buried. If God did not shorten those final days of earth, no humans will be found left alive and that all life will die.

Then as total despair is upon the faces of those remaining barely alive, a sudden light will engulf our entire realm, from say, when our Sun goes super Nova. This light will engulf the very fabric of time and space and everything is consumed.

What emerges after this brilliant coming is a totally new earth and a totally new heaven, I would say a totally different reality. It is at this moment that the saved emerge from the condemned reality to the reality of God, the 3rd Heaven, Christ's Father's house.

It would be likened to a situation where the saved souls are beamed out of this annihilation without consuming them.

Christ's brilliant coming is the consuming of the reality we now, that is the old heaven and the old earth and the Sun will totally be consumed.

This would be the second coming of Jesus. He will appear to those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb of God, when they put on their wedding resurrection garments, after being translated in a twinkling of an eye.

No earth will be left let alone an earthly kingdom and there comes the saying.....

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

In other words all earthly kingdoms will be no more, but the Kingdom of Jesus will continue in his Father's house, that is the 3rd Heaven.
 
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Truth7t7

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What about what Jesus also said in the following?

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return
when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him



Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

when these things begin to come to pass---your redemption draweth nigh
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand


they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return
when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him
when these things begin to come to pass---your redemption draweth nigh
when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand


Just ignore what all Jesus also said above, right? Isn't it pretty clear from the above that when Jesus walked the earth before He died, they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear?

How did Jesus deal with that at the time? By speaking a parable, where in the parable it's obvious a certain nobleman is meaning Jesus Himself. Going into a far country meaning His ascension into heaven where He is still currently. To receive for himself a kingdom, that explained per Daniel 7:13-14 and what took place once He reached the Father following His ascension back into heaven in the first century.
And to return, obviously referring to the 2nd coming that is still future.

When he was returned, having received the kingdom---obviously meaning the 2nd coming.

when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Obviously meaning the things coming to pass prior to His return. Know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand---obviously meaning it can't already be here if it's nigh at hand when these things start coming to pass before He returns. Obviously then, the kingdom Jesus went to receive, and is yet to return with it, this is meaning a literal physical kingdom. All of the above prove it.

Why would none of the above, after Jesus has returned with the literal physical kingdom, not have anything to do with the thousand years in Revelation 20?
Nothing you have provided shows a 1000 year earthly kingdom.

Jesus will return with a kingdom, but it will be the eternal New Jerusalem Revelation 20:1-5, Isaiah 65:17-19
 
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DavidPT

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Jesus will return with a kingdom, but it will be the eternal New Jerusalem Revelation 20:1-5, Isaiah 65:17-19


I actually agree with this believe it or not. No doubt the NJ comes as of the 2nd coming. Yet there is still a thousand years after the 2nd coming, followed by satan's little season, followed by the GWTJ. This thousand years is the first thousand years of this everlasting kingdom.
 
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The Times

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I actually agree with this believe it or not. No doubt the NJ comes as of the 2nd coming. Yet there is still a thousand years after the 2nd coming, followed by satan's little season, followed by the GWTJ. This thousand years is the first thousand years of this everlasting kingdom.

There are in fact two distinct millenniums. I will explain to you, because this is where all the confusion amongst theologians lies.

Just because John used a commonly used numerical term in the culture of their day, doesn't mean that he is using the same numerical term for the same event, across all subjects.

For example I can say the following.....

I had delayed eating my breakfast for several minutes, whilst those seated were eating their breakfast for several minutes until they finish and when they finish it will be my turn.

Though it appears several minutes, just like the usage of the numerical term millennium is the same, yet the intent of using an arbitrary numerical term is to distinguish one group from another, like me from those already seated and eating breakfast.

Now let us look at what John says....

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

An arbitrary commonly used numerical term, like the several numerical term used in our culture today, is used by John to highlight a timeframe concerning events for group 1, that being the beast, the false prophet and the Devil who was wielding that enterprise of the beast (government) and false prophet (false religious institution). Notice John gives a chronological event of Satan being bound in the present tense of the verb bound. So Satan is actually released for a short time after the 1000 year arbitrary time period.

Now we come to the second group....

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So we have souls of people who had lived on earth and died, now taking part in the resurrection of the dead and reigning with Christ a numerical time period of a 1000 years.

This 1000 years for Christ's group, cannot come at the same 1000 years for Satan and his group. Why?

When the resurrection of the dead happens at the end of the harvest, the end is there and then when the books are opened, the book of life and the book of the damned. You cannot have hell and death continuing past this point and so this places Satan and his group's 1000 years before the resurrection of the dead, when the books are opened.

Further more.....

5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Notice the brackets indicate a different 1000 years and a different group. The translation confuses people to think that this is still talking about the same 1000 years of Christ and his group. The clarification is in the following verse...

6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Notice the first resurrection is the resurrection of the dead.
Also the second death is the lake of fire, after the first death of the earthly body,

So second death comes immediately after the resurrection of the dead and the verse below confirms this.....

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The lake of fire is the second death and it explains that this happens after the 1000 years for Satan and his group is expired. After this point we see the eternal millennium emerging at the resurrection of the dead when the books are opened.....

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

When Jesus comes and raises the faithful body of believers in the resurrection of the dead, then we see the first earth and the first heaven flee from his second coming, because they are no more.

It even tells you in plain that the second death is the lake of fire, so those that lived not are those who died or were serving in hell, where they were all thrown in the lake of fire.

The books are opened at Christ's second coming, coinciding with the resurrection of the dead and so anyone not taking part in the first resurrection are immediately facing second death in the lake of fire.

At this point it should be clear why there is two independent millenium timeframes and these are distinguished from one another, that is from before and after Christ's second coming.

Here is the summary...

In the 1st century according to John, Satan is spiritually bound and the Church given wings to escape his flood of people that he sent out after those who kept the commandments of God and held onto the testimony of Jesus Christ. Towards the end of Satan's millenium imprisonment, he is released for a very short time, and he knows his time is short.

He will encompass the Church of the Saints and the fire that comes on Satan as the Antichrist, before the finale is when the fire of Christ's brilliant coming totally consumes the first earth and the first heaven and ushers in the souls and those remaining alive of his faithful followers by resurrecting them as he had promised on that day of his return. This would then be the last trumpet call and the opening of books and the beginning of Christ's eternal millenium reign in heaven (Father's house), with his consummated bride, at the wedding supper of the lamb of God.

Therefore there are two separate milleniums contrasting Satan and his group from Christ and his bride. The two are separated by Christ's second coming and the opening of the books.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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There is a literal 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, but it is not what many think.

This is what Jesus said......

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:27)

What this means, is a brilliant coming that will literally engulf, that is consume the very realm that we know as Genesis 1.0.

A lightening is sudden and it engulfs the sky.

Paul highlights Christ's coming as follows....

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

We can certainly realise a common theme here, that is our very reality and existence will change in an instant.

The question is what happens to the old heaven and the old earth?

Totally obliterated!

This is the scenario I would like to share with you brothers and sisters......

Imagine you are in a dying world, that is barely habitable, pitch black darkness with thick clouds and monsoonal rains, earth continuously quaking, air barely breatable and the smell of death everywhere, because the dead are not buried. If God did not shorten those final days of earth, no humans will be found left alive and that all life will die.

Then as total despair is upon the faces of those remaining barely alive, a sudden light will engulf our entire realm, from say, when our Sun goes super Nova. This light will engulf the very fabric of time and space and everything is consumed.

What emerges after this brilliant coming is a totally new earth and a totally new heaven, I would say a totally different reality. It is at this moment that the saved emerge from the condemned reality to the reality of God, the 3rd Heaven, Christ's Father's house.

It would be likened to a situation where the saved souls are beamed out of this annihilation without consuming them.

Christ's brilliant coming is the consuming of the reality we now, that is the old heaven and the old earth and the Sun will totally be consumed.

This would be the second coming of Jesus. He will appear to those who enter the wedding supper of the lamb of God, when they put on their wedding resurrection garments, after being translated in a twinkling of an eye.

No earth will be left let alone an earthly kingdom and there comes the saying.....

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 11:15)

In other words all earthly kingdoms will be no more, but the Kingdom of Jesus will continue in his Father's house, that is the 3rd Heaven.

And it all happens within us...what we perceive as reality changes...in the twinkling of an eye. It spontaneously (The Father's doing, not anything we can do our 'self') happens as we 'hear' the truth of the Ancient of Days. In Revelation, John says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last..."

Becoming single of eye (Matthew 6:22), eyes opened to SEE the LIFE/Light that destroys everything of the flesh...then a lifting up/exalted (Psalm 37:34). A man is subject to elements of earth, a slave and the earth realm has dominion over man. Christ revealed (Paul said "the mystery revealed...Christ in you, the hope of glory"). Flesh (seeing) is an illusion (Adam's eyesight change in garden)...sight restored at the revelation of the son...clothed (again) in His glory...all internal truth being revealed by spirit - the process taking place within...

Be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:23-24)

Until we be converted we have a false sense of being...the old not yet gone to reveal the NEW... Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
 
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Interesting thought. I'm thinking only the earth and it's "heaven" i.e. the atmosphere will be destroyed because after it's all over sin is totally destroyed in that throughout the entire universe no sin exists anywhere (except here on earth).... and the meek shall inherit the earth (the new earth) and also God establishes his kingdom here on earth ... so seems like we (the earth) are the only place left in the universe where sin is present.
I don't find anything biblically to support "come apart" if you mean in the sense totally come apart and blown to smithereens. It always talks about the earth being destroyed by fire.

There is this verse:

Malachi 4
3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

says will be ashes - pretty tough to have ashes underfoot if they are floating all over the universe.

In Genisis

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"heavens" here is defined in the Hebrew:

shamayim: heaven, sky
Original Word: שָׁמַ֫יִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Short Definition: heaven
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
heaven, sky

And earth is

erets: earth, land
Original Word: אָ֫רֶץ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: erets
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-rets)
Short Definition: land

Whether He does a "earth makeover" after the fire, or creates a brand new one ????

Thus far (unless I find something else in His word) I believe he's going to do a creation "make over" after the earth is totally consumed by fire.

Guess we'll find out when it happens ;o) Amen



Not sure what your point is here? or what you are applying it to?

In our conversations would you please give the verse location and then provide your understanding of that verse. Otherwise it gets very confusing. Thanks.
I don't get into the minutia any more. My take is that it would take God as much effort to obliterate the earth and start from scratch as it would to do the same to all of creation.

I just don't get into that sort of hypothetical any more. Just as I see Genesis as describing, in a way all generations can understand, and at a very high level, how our earth came to be, I believe "end of the age" prophesy goes to a similar detail, and arguing the meaning of English words and phrases in our bibles that are based on interpretations of Hebrew and Greek phrases that are all at that general level is an exercise in futility.

God explains it as a father would explain how a car works to a three year old. Trying to argue, without new input from dad, things like actual displacement, compression ratios, torque, etc. based on his simple notes is not going to be very productive. Suffice it to say, we'll know when the time comes.

Now we see as through a glass darkly...
 
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Absolutely.



Comparing scripture with scripture quickly demonstrates this usage of "ever was nor ever shall be":

Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. (And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon -- Matt. 12:42). Furthermore, this same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon O.T. Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2). The Ezekiel 5:9 passage is especially instructive to us, for it states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God had ever brought upon a nation, past or future. Therefore, we recognize that the expression "ever was/nor ever shall be" is a common Hyperbolic Hebraic idiom.

St. Luke's account of this great tribulation reads as follows:
"These are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people." (Luke 21:22-23)

Without question, Jesus promised his apostles that they would live to see Israel's great tribulation ("great distress in the land and wrath upon this people") and all those things come to pass in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34; Luke 21:31-32).

Even so, AD 66-70 was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5). Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

That bears repeating.

Due to the covenantal significance of the event, that Day of the Lord's vengeance (cf. Luke 21:20-22; Isa 61:2; Jer 46:10) can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Messiah-rejecting Jews endured as they were violently excommunicated out of covenant with God (Matt 21:40-45; Acts 3:22-24).
OK, you got me on that one. I confess that I see the bible as a sort of Yogi Berra form of communication in many places along the lines of his famous comment about a restaurant: "Nobody goes there any more because it's too crowded." It appears contradictory but we know what he means. :)

And a lot of the bible is like that - appears to be contradictory, but we know what it means.

This awareness is what turned me from ECT to CI. i.e. I've made the same arguments about "forever and ever", etc.
Jewishnotgreek.com
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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God explains it as a father would explain how a car works to a three year old. Trying to argue, without new input from dad, things like actual displacement, compression ratios, torque, etc. based on his simple notes is not going to be very productive. Suffice it to say, we'll know when the time comes.

Now we see as through a glass darkly...

Indeed!!! ...that being revealed...darkness overcome by the light (of life) in spirit and in truth...no more shadow/s (that come from the sun 'seeing'/perceiving) and come to "know" as we have always been known.
And I can attest that there is no mistaking "when the time comes..." ...utterly mind-blowing (pun intended)...

"Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.…" 1 Corinthians 2:9-11
 
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