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"wrath of the Lamb" seems like an oxymoron.
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"wrath of the Lamb" seems like an oxymoron.
Provide some names and dates.When will this LIE that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture stated with Darby die out? This has been ABSOLUTELY disproved more times that I can count. It was taught by numerous writers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by a few earlier than that, some very much earlier.
Because Darby's doctrine lives and dies on keeping the Church and Israel separated.
They must ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
They also ignore the words of Peter on the Day of Pentecost when he addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel, and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".
Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson speaks below about those who attempt to defend Darby's doctrine.
Provide some names and dates.
Wrath, no. Tribulation, yes. There's a big difference.Thank God HE will not allow HIS own to go through the horrors of the trib. HE has NOT appointed us to wrath
HE ''finished'' the work of salvation and we are secure IN HIM alone
But a pre-tribulation rapture removal to heaven for anyone, is not stated in the Bible.When will this LIE that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture stated with Darby die out? This has been ABSOLUTELY disproved more times that I can count. It was taught by numerous writers in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and by a few earlier than that, some very much earlier.
And the ECF's never clearly said there would be a rapture to heaven.
From Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center:Irenaeus said:
"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,29
God Bless
Till all are one.
From Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center:
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]
However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
When the term "rapture" is used without qualification, it is most often understood to mean a pretrib rapture. If you believe that Irenaeus is not describing a pretrib rapture, then all of us -- yourself, myself, Thomas Ice, and Irenaeus -- are in agreement.Focus what he said:
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"
I said nothing on "pretribulationism".
What I quoted was context on a "rapture".
Regarding the Irenaeus quote you will hear people say that the next paragraph denounces the thought of a pre-tribulation Rapture because it mentions the beast. But those who tout this view are not completely honest. The quote I mentioned above does not follow with a paragraph but ends the first section of chapter 29. Then begins section two of the chapter which is the subject of the beast.
God Bless
Till all are one.
When the term "rapture" is used without qualification, it is most often understood to mean a pretrib rapture. If you believe that Irenaeus is not describing a pretrib rapture, then all of us -- yourself, myself, Thomas Ice, and Irenaeus -- are in agreement.
NONE of them say that God will rapture His people to heaven. Irenaeus and the others just reiterated what Paul prophesied in 1 Thess 4:15-17 Just a transportation to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.Look back at what Irenaeus said:
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"
Now I do disagree with you in that the usage from Irenaeus is the same as scripture, "caught up".
If you read it, just as written, he says:
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this" but, "caught up" from what?
He answers this in his next sentence:
"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be"
But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to step back on that.
However, about 100 years later, we have another Anti-Nicene church Father that says:
"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Ephraem the Syrian, “On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World”.
But lets say he's wrong too.
Just a tad earlier, Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":
"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."
It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.
Oh well.
God Bless
Till all are one.
NONE of them say that God will rapture His people to heaven. Irenaeus and the others just reiterated what Paul prophesied in 1 Thess 4:15-17 Just a transportation to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.
I would like all who hold to the idea of a rapture removal to heaven, to carefully read Hebrews 12:8
Your comments on this verse would be appreciated.
The final sentence in the cited passage from Irenaeus states:Look back at what Irenaeus said:
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this"
Now I do disagree with you in that the usage from Irenaeus is the same as scripture, "caught up".
If you read it, just as written, he says:
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this" but, "caught up" from what?
He answers this in his next sentence:
"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be"
But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to step back on that.
However, about 100 years later, we have another Anti-Nicene church Father that says:
"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Ephraem the Syrian, “On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World”.
But lets say he's wrong too.
Just a tad earlier, Cyprian wrote in his "Treatises of Cyprian":
"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom."
It seems he also believed in a pre-trib rapture.
Oh well.
God Bless
Till all are one.
The final sentence in the cited passage from Irenaeus states:
"For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."
If the righteous are pretrib-raptured, there is no contest, i.e., tribulation, in which they overcome.
The Syriac version of the "Sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem on the End of the World" contains:
"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions."
Deliverance is via death, not rapture.
However, there is sufficient controversy regarding the authenticity of Pseudo-Ephraem to disqualify it as a legitimate source.
Cyprian, Epistle 55
"Nor let any one of you, dearest brethren, be so alarmed by the dread of the persecution at hand, or at the now impending advent of Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the Evangelical exhortations, and by heavenly precepts and warnings. Antichrist cometh, but upon him cometh also Christ. The enemy wastes and rages, but immediately also the Lord followeth to avenge our sufferings and our wounds."
The brethen would experience Antichrist, followed by Christ. No implication of rapture.