GOD'S LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER!

LoveGodsWord said:

Correct that is why God’s Law (10 commandments) are the standard in the Old and New Covenants (Stone and Heart) and the judgement to come. The requirement for holiness has not changed. The 10 commandments are the standard of Holiness and a requirement in both the Old and New Covenants and the standard of the judgement to come (James 2:8-12).

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The ceremonial laws are essentially God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45, so they are the standard of holiness. Is it really your position that God's commands to observe his holy days had nothing to do with holiness?

Good! Do not disagree and the same is also argued in Posts 1-4 of this OP. So what is your point as this is what is highlighted in posts 1-4 of the OP?

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My point is that you are misunderstanding that verse as saying that cross was used as a means of disposing of outdated ceremonial laws. You error is that when you see the word "law" you think about just the Ten Commandments when the people would have understood it as referring to all of God's laws.

Who is saying God’s Law (10 commandments) ended at the cross? Not me. It was the ceremonial laws of Moses pointing to the plan of salvation in Jesus and our sins that were nailed to the cross (Col 2:14-17). For in depth discussion see the thread COL 2:14-17 THE REAL TRUTH! PARTS 1-4 (linked)
I am not sure what you are saying or the point you are making so far as I generally agree with what you have posted here unless you are implying you need to keep the ceremonial laws of Moses (e.g. animal sacrifices etc)?

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God's Law is inclusive of everything that He commanded through Moses, so when you speak against obeying the ceremonial laws, you are speaking against obeying God's Law. Even when the Law was given to Moses, there was not a single law that everyone was required to obey, and not even Jesus was able to obey the laws in regard to giving birth or to a woman's period. So some of the laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living in the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Many of the laws also have further conditions under which they apply, such as traffic laws that only apply during certain hours or the command to keep the Sabbath that only applies when it is the 7th day. So if there is nothing wrong with not keeping the Sabbath when it is a Tuesday, then there is nothing wrong not keeping laws in regard to temple practice when there is not a temple in which to practice them. The condition for the Israelites who were in exile in Babylon to return was for them to obey God's Law, which required having access to a temple that they didn't have while in exile, so God counted them doing what they could do as full obedience. So there is a difference between doing away with a law and saying that the conditions under which it applies are not met.

In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow which involved making offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay the expenses for others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he still continued to live in obedience to it. This is quite clearly referring to more than just the Ten Commandments. So offerings did not stop with the death and resurrection of Messiah, but only stopped with the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophecies a time when the third and fourth temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46).

Stu

How can the Holy Spirit be the seal of GOD when he is GOD?

Original Happy Camper said:

How can the Holy Spirit be the seal of GOD when he is GOD?

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Your prophetess, when she started out did not believe God was Father, Son and Holy Spirit. She was persuaded by those around her to change her view

stuart lawrence said:

On the one hand we have people, in reality preaching righteousness of observing the law

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sorry righteousness can not be obtained by observing the law. It is Christs righteousness that is credited to our account. No righteousness through works. Because of our response to GODS grace we are led to keep the law.

Original Happy Camper said:

sorry righteousness can not be obtained by observing the law. It is Christs righteousness that is credited to our account. No righteousness through works. Because of our response to GODS grace we are led to keep the law.

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Really?
Well an sda member in a thread where many other sda members took part flat out said:
Our justification is obeying the TC. Not one of the other sda members in the thread corrected him.
To please a friend, for two months I attended an sdachurch( what an eye opener) everyone I spoke to there, in reality believed in justification of observing the law.
LGW states you cannot be in a saved state unless you observe the law. Therefore in his view you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law( despite his protestations to the contrary)

stuart lawrence said:

Your prophetess, when she started out did not believe God was Father, Son and Holy Spirit. She was persuaded by those around her to change her view

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And the your point is?

stuart lawrence said:

Really?
Well an sda member in a thread where many other sda members took part flat out said:
Our justification is obeying the TC. Not one of the other sda members in the thread corrected him.
To please a friend, for two months I attended an sdachurch( what an eye opener) everyone I spoke to there, in reality believed in justification of observing the law.
LGW states you cannot be in a saved state unless you observe the law. Therefore in his view you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law( despite his protestations to the contrary)

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I cannot answer for those other SDA members.

No idea who LGW is he is unknown to me.

Original Happy Camper said:

I cannot answer for those other SDA members.

No idea who LGW is he is unknown to me.

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He started this thread. He, like you is SDA.

If you say being in a saved state hinges on observing the law, it is the same as saying you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law. For the righteous are in a saved state. The unrighteous are not

stuart lawrence said:

Really?
Well an sda member in a thread where many other sda members took part flat out said:
Our justification is obeying the TC. Not one of the other sda members in the thread corrected him.
To please a friend, for two months I attended an sdachurch( what an eye opener) everyone I spoke to there, in reality believed in justification of observing the law.
LGW states you cannot be in a saved state unless you observe the law. Therefore in his view you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law( despite his protestations to the contrary)

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This is SDA position on Justification
"... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16 NKJV

Original Happy Camper said:

This is SDA position on Justification
"... knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Galatians 2:16 NKJV

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The sda are contradictory, for in the practical reality of people's lives who attend the church, they can only be in a saved state( justified) if they obey the TC

LoveGodsWord said:

Are you making an argument that does not exist? Have I ever said that we should not follow all of God’s Word? Man is to live by every word the proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4). God Word says in times of ignorance God winked at but when a knowledge of the truth comes expects all man to repent and follow His Word. Also if you know what you should do to follow God and you do not do it then it is also sin (Acts 17:30; James 4:17). Sin is not believing God’s Word (Rom 14:23). Sin is breaking any of God’s 10 commandments it is very clear throughout all of God’s Word in both the Old and New Testament writings. From Genesis to Revelations the judgements of God have only ever come to mankind because of sin. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom so shall the coming of the son of man be… It is sin not to believe and obey God. If God asks us to do something and we do not do it then that is sin.

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God's Word includes ceremonial laws and God's Word made flesh set a perfect example for his followers to follow of how to live in obedience to those laws, so by speaking against obeying God's ceremonial laws, you are speaking against obeying God's Word.

For example; 1 John 3:4 where is says “Whosoever committeth sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law” is referring to God’s 10 commandments. The same chapter of 1 John 3 makes it clear that we are talking about God’s 10 commandments when it references righteousness (v 7) and one of God’s commandments about murder (v 12; v15). James 2:8-12 clearly agrees with this and refers God’s Law as being the Royal Law of freedom (v8; 12) which we all will be judged by in the judgement (v 12)

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The covenant that God originally intended to make with Israel was one where they would hear and obey His voice (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice they got cold feet and want God to speak to Moses and for them to listen to Moses instead (Exodus 20:19), so God nevertheless agreed to a different covenant with them and it became necessary for Moses to write down God's laws in lieu of hearing God voice instruct them about how to walk in God's ways in accordance with his holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). This was less than ideal because while Moses was a great man, he could not be everywhere, and this quickly led to problems that would not have occurred if they had been listening to God's voice. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic covenant as a marriage between God and Israel, so this was exactly like a man rescuing his girlfriend from captivity, proposing to her, and her agreeing, but on her wedding day deciding that she only wanted to interact with her husband through a mediator, which he nevertheless agreed to do because of his love for her. So all of the Mosaic Law is there to teach how to have an intimate relationship with God and it is sin to disobey any of it. In 1 John 3:4, it does not specify that it is speaking only about ten of God's laws, practicing righteousness is not limited to only to only ten of God's commands, and Cain murdering Able is just an example of practicing evil. The Mosaic Law is the perfect and royal law of freedom (Psalms 19:7, Psalms 119:45)

James 2:8-12

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8, If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty (Please read post # 3 of the OP for more scripture).

The origin of all sin comes by not obeying God. If God asks us to do something and we do not do it then it is sin. Our duty to love God and our neighbour is defined in God’s Law. This is the standard of righteousness and the whole duty of man (Ps 119:172; Ecc 12:13). Love is the fulfilling of God’s Law and the only way it can be obeyed (Rom 13:9-10). That is why Jesus says verily verily I say unto you unless a man is born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 3:3) This is the new Covenant (Heb 8:10-12; Eze 36:26-27) and we can only receive it as we have faith in God’s promises (2 Pet 1:4). We are to live by all of God’s Word if we do not then it is sin and we will be judged by it (John 12:47-48).

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If you agree that sin comes by not obeying God, then you should agree that sin also comes by not obeying what God commanded through Moses. The Mosaic Law is the way to live as a citizen in God's Kingdom, not the way to become a citizen. Again, if you agree that we should live by all of God's Word, then you should agree that we should obey ceremonial laws because they are part of God's Word.

stuart lawrence said:

He started this thread. He, like you is SDA.

If you say being in a saved state hinges on observing the law, it is the same as saying you can only be righteous before God if you observe the law. For the righteous are in a saved state. The unrighteous are not

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The righteousness that we receive is Christs not ours. IF we sin and ask forgiveness then by the grace of GOD these sins are covered by his righteousness.

Remember GOD came to save us from our sins not in our sins. Must have true repentance.

With the Holy Spirits help I try to keep the law out of Love for Jesus Christ not to try and save myself.
The law is the Character of Jesus Christ.

Many find grace in the New Testament, but there is also plenty of grace in the Old Testament as well. While Paul says no flesh will be justified by works, that includes those in the Old Testament as well. Those living during Old Testament and New Testament times are all saved by “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”Revelation 13:8 NKJV

Original Happy Camper said:

The righteousness that we receive is Christs not ours. IF we sin and ask forgiveness then by the grace of GOD these sins are covered by his righteousness.

Remember GOD came to save us from our sins not in our sins. Must have true repentance.

With the Holy Spirits help I try to keep the law out of Love for Jesus Christ not to try and save myself.
The law is the Character of Jesus Christ.

Many find grace in the New Testament, but there is also plenty of grace in the Old Testament as well. While Paul says no flesh will be justified by works, that includes those in the Old Testament as well. Those living during Old Testament and New Testament times are all saved by “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”Revelation 13:8 NKJV

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I was raised in a church, that where this point is concerned where much like the sda in their thinking.
If you say to someone:
You are saved by grace through faith, but remaining in a saved state hinges on observing the law.
You then place them under a righteousness of observing the law.

I chatted to one sda member. They said to me:
Must a person obey the TC to be a christian/ in a saved state

When I replied:no
They shook their head and burst out laughing.

Stu

Can you answer my question in post #143

And provide a verse that supports what you stated that the Holy Spirit is the the seal of GOD.

honey do time again be back later

God be with you all

LoveGodsWord said:

Agree Salvation is only by faith in God’s Word this has already been stated in the OP in posts 1 and 2 and in other places in this thread for example post 62 above. So I am not sure of your point here either. However, you make a mistake if you believe you are required to be careful to obey all of God’s commands. Fact is we cannot obey God in our own strength because we are all sinners in need of a Saviour but the Good news of the Gospel is that Jesus will save us from our sins as you have faith and believe in His Word. He will give you power in our lives so we can become a partaker of the divine nature so we can walk in Love (2 Peter 1:4). It is only Love that fulfills God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Without Jesus we are nothing and all we can do is sin (John 15:3-10)

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Saying that by grace through faith we are required to be careful to obey all of God's commands is not the same saying that we must obey God through our own efforts because, as I said, it is by grace through faith, which is not through our own efforts. Being saved from our sins necessarily involves being made into someone who does not sin. In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how they knew what they should be repenting of doing, so repenting from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message. Love fulfills the Mosaic Law because that is essentially what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct us how to do.

In Deuteronomy 6:20-24, obeying the Mosaic Law is about having faith in Him to save them from slavery in Egypt, faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to their fathers, faith in God that His commands our for our own good, and faith in God to preserve us, so it is by faith that we are are declared righteous and by the same faith that we are to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires.

I agree with the above and do not know what your point is as I have not said anything different. I think maybe you are confused however of the difference between the ceremonial laws of Moses that where a Shadow of things to come which are temporary and God’s Holy Laws (10 commandments) which are forever. It is the latter that points out sin (Ecc 3:14; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; Rom 7:7; James 2:8-10-12)

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All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and none of those verses specify that only the Ten Commandments were given to reveal what sin is.

Original Happy Camper said:

Stu

Can you answer my question in post #143

And provide a verse that supports what you stated that the Holy Spirit is the the seal of GOD.

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Read post 132, a follow up.
Can you read post 133 and answer my question in it please

LoveGodsWord said:

Yep do not disagree with you . However your reference to Matt 5:17-19 is talking about God’s Law (10 commandments) not the ceremonial laws of Moses as these ended at the cross (Col 2:14). You reference Matt 5:17-19 but you leave out the context Jesus is referring to in verses 20-21 which is talking about exceeding the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees then Jesus starts quoting the 10 commandments in verse 21 to 27. So I am not sure what your point is.

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In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples did not keep the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the traditions of the elders for the sake of their tradition. He then went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9) and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God for the sake of their tradition (Mark 7:6-9), so that major problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees was that they were not teaching people to obey the Mosaic Law, and that what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was in fact their own traditions.

When Jesus quoted Scripture, he preceeded by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard the teachers of the Law teaching, he preceded it by saying "you have heart that it was said". So in Matthew 5, Jesus was not speaking against obeying what God had commanded, but rather he was correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and teaching how it was originally intended to be understood and obeyed. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the Law certainly commands us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not command us to hate our enemy, so that is what was wrong being taught about the Law.

I generally agree with what you have written above . It is not really about understanding the principles of God’s Love however, because we cannot (Isa 55:8-9). It is more about seeking Jesus for the experience of salvation. It is about a change of heart that only God can give to the sinner that knows His need of a Saviour.

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God's love is infinitely greater than we can comprehend, but that does not mean that we can be taught the principle of love and how to reflect God's love to the world by grace through faith.

This the operation of God in us and is how we are to walk because it is only by love that God fulfills his Laws in us to love another.

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The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor, so if we are walking in love, then we are walking in obedience to them.

stuart lawrence said:

I mean, perish the thought a Christian in their heart wouldn't want to murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness for God transferred that law into their hearts.
Scandalous!!!

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Oh come on friend. Would Jesus steal, kill commit adultery and etc? No, because He loves us. If we love others as He loves us we too will not cause pain to our fellow man. That is so easy and because people's minds are closed they insist on doing it their way.

Bob S said:

Oh come on friend. Would Jesus steal, kill commit adultery and etc? No, because He loves us. If we love others as He loves us we too will not cause pain to our fellow man. That is so easy and because people's minds are closed they insist on doing it their way.

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Your posts are becoming more erratic all the time .
Under the OC the law hung on love God and love your neighbour, but were they the only laws that existed?

So do Gods laws exist or don't they?
One minute you say yes, the next no