pledge of allegiance, mark of the beast

Winken

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Not yet. However, if it is the second beast, it will happen.
PU-LEEZE stop asking IF we knew! Or saying "However, IF......"

Do you have a secret answer? Who is providing it? Is your source a secret? If not, what is IT?
 
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stillwaters45

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Because it's the epitome of fanciful speculation that has no basis in a reasonable exegesis of the Bible. You pull part of John's revelation completely out of context and apply it to an oath taken in 21st century America. It's absurd.
Do you believe that Revelation predicts the future? If you don't believe that, then it would be a waste of time discussing this with you. Sounds like you think it's all about the first century.
 
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claninja

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For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?
It's interesting to see all the "no, but...." answers. As this appears to be a hypothetical question, the obvious and easy answer is no. the America dream is addictive, even when just answering hypothetical questions.....
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?
Yes, of course I would.
Are you anti-American and/or Muslim by any chance?

..........................................
 
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stillwaters45

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Yes, of course I would.
Are you anti-American and/or Muslim by any chance?

..........................................
No, why would I be? Why do you think that? This is about whether you would pledge if you knew that the USA was the second beast of Revelation.
 
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Douggg

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This little horn rises from the four horns into which the Greek empire divided. It's nothing to do with the Roman Empire. It's probably a reference to Antiochus Epiphanes, as Josephus said. The four kings are defined as four empires. Kings in Daniel = empires. Compare Daniel 7:17 with 7:23-24. It doesn't say that the four kings are four notable kings in those kingdoms. It says that the kings are those beasts, and it calls those beasts, kingdoms. Out of the fourth beast or kingdom (or king in the prophetic language), ten kings, or horns, arise. This is the same as the first beast of Rev 13. The second beast is a new kingdom that comes in the image of the first beast (Rome) and makes everyone worship its image (through its civic religion).
Not Antiochus. The little horn it says commits the transgression of desolation, which in the text says is for the time of the end. Daniel 8:12-13, Daniel 8:17 (click on the links for the text, right click on the link and open in a new window, more convenient to me )

The four break up kingdoms of course are long gone over 2000 years ago. Which, we therefore have to reconcile Daniel 8:9 of the little horn into the end times. Since he waxes strong to the southeast, he means he heads to the middle east, Israel, with a strong army. In Daniel 9:27, he is the prince who shall come.

Come from where? From the geographic location of the one of the four breakup kingdoms that is north and west of Israel. In modern times, the one of the four that fits is Greece. Greece itself is relatively small, and does not have a huge or powerful army. But the EU does.
___________________________________________________________________________

It doesn't say "notable" in the text of Daniel 7:17, but from Daniel 2 we know that Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. So he is first notable King. In retrospect, from history, and progressing down through the statue vision, we know that Cyrus is the next notable King. And that Alexander was the third notable king.

From as much that is said of the little horn and him coming up among the ten kings of the fourth empire in the end times - he is the last of the four notable Kings.
__________________________________________________________________________________

The first beast in Revelation, like in Daniel 7, is both a king and an empire. In the end times, with 42 months left in the 7 years, the fourth empire endtimes version, will have gained control of the territories once part of the other three historic kingdoms. Hence the composite body of the beast, of the lion, bear, leopard. Basically what it means is the EU will be occupying all of the oil rich lands of the middle east.

The second beast doesn't have a crown, thus is not a king. And since he has a two horns like a lamb, a referral to Jesus, our High Priest in heaven - the person is religious in nature. It doesn't say anything about the false prophet in the text about his role prior to the 42 months.

But from history, the Kings of Israel - the united nation - which there have only been three kings, Saul, David, Solomon, they are all anointed by a prophet. Saul and David by Samuel, Solomon by Nathan.

The little horn person, for a short time, 3 years 3 months, will be in the role anointed the King of Israel.
That is actually when he becomes the Antichrist - illegitimate King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

Even though the bible doesn't say, it very likely that the little horn person, the prince who shall come will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet.

Which in fact the Jews anticipate of their messiah, to be anointed by a known prophet. They set a place for Elijah at their passover meal every year by tradition. So the false prophet is likely , to initially project himself as Elijah, before both he and the Antichrist person (initially the little horns) go rogue and the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:13. Which is the act of 2thessalonians2:4.
 
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pescador

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Do you believe that Revelation predicts the future? If you don't believe that, then it would be a waste of time discussing this with you. Sounds like you think it's all about the first century.

Apparently you didn't read my post carefully. "Because it's the epitome of fanciful speculation that has no basis in a reasonable exegesis of the Bible. You pull part of John's revelation completely out of context and apply it to an oath taken in 21st century America. It's absurd.
 
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stillwaters45

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Apparently you didn't read my post carefully. "Because it's the epitome of fanciful speculation that has no basis in a reasonable exegesis of the Bible. You pull part of John's revelation completely out of context and apply it to an oath taken in 21st century America. It's absurd.
Okay, you think you're the only person in the world who is immune from the need to clarify. BTW, your text in bold shows you didn't read the OP carefully. Now if you don't wish to engage, I will leave you to it.
 
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pescador

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No, why would I be? Why do you think that? This is about whether you would pledge if you knew that the USA was the second beast of Revelation.

But it's not, so the question is absurd.
 
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pescador

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If the woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns, does that refer to the seven top teams in the NFL and the ten horns, the ten largest stadiums? Can you prove that it doesn't?
 
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Douggg

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Okay, you think you're the only person in the world who is immune from the need to clarify. BTW, your text in bold shows you didn't read the OP carefully. Now if you don't wish to engage, I will leave you to it.
stillwates45, I think the criticism you're hearing is that the opening post is a bad approach to claiming either the first or second beast in Revelation 13 is America.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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America is the only country, or rather empire, in the world that is created as a civil project in the image of Rome.

I guess that doesn't include the Holy Roman Empire, which was an attempt to revive the old Roman Empire. I suppose it ignores the Kaisers, whose title literally meant Caesar, because they thought they ruled the new Roman Empire. It would preclude the Byzantine Empire, which considered itself a continuation of said Empire, or Tsarist Russia, which considered itself the last vestige of the Byzantine empire, whose Tsars also were the same as Caesar. It would also ignore the little nation of Romania, which literally named itself after Rome, because they couldn't admit that the Empire was finally dead (sounds like a Monty Python sketch).

No, America isn't the first. It is the first to attempt a representative form of government since the fall of the Roman Republic, but it isn't the first to attempt a revival of the Roman Empire, which followed after the collapse of the republic.
 
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stillwaters45

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I guess that doesn't include the Holy Roman Empire, which was an attempt to revive the old Roman Empire. I suppose it ignores the Kaisers, whose title literally meant Caesar, because they thought they ruled the new Roman Empire. It would preclude the Byzantine Empire, which considered itself a continuation of said Empire, or Tsarist Russia, which considered itself the last vestige of the Byzantine empire, whose Tsars also were the same as Caesar. It would also ignore the little nation of Romania, which literally named itself after Rome, because they couldn't admit that the Empire was finally dead (sounds like a Monty Python sketch).

No, America isn't the first. It is the first to attempt a representative form of government since the fall of the Roman Republic, but it isn't the first to attempt a revival of the Roman Empire, which followed after the collapse of the republic.
Read it again: the question I was replying to is why it can't be Canada or Australia. Yours is a completely different objection.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Read it again: the question I was replying to is why it can't be Canada or Australia. Yours is a completely different objection.

It doesn't matter. A whole parade of Rome impostors have come and gone, as I said. One more impostor means nothing to me. The last several were not the Beast of the Earth, just by virtue of imitating Rome, and this one won't be, either.
 
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stillwaters45

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It doesn't matter. A whole parade of Rome impostors have come and gone, as I said. One more impostor means nothing to me. The last several were not the Beast of the Earth, just by virtue of imitating Rome, and this one won't be, either.
I'm not trying to convince you so it doesn't matter. In fact, I had strongly considered the Holy Roman Empire but it doesn't fit the prophecy, whereas the USA does, for reasons I see absolutely no point sharing with you.
 
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Karl.C

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For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?
It is one of those things about the USA that mystifies me! Here in Oz, most of us think parroting a bunch of words each day at school and wherever/whenever is an act of hypocrisy - either you are aligned to the country you live in or you are not. Actions speak louder than words!

In most free societies (non-dictatorships) the only time you recite an act of allegience is when you take an oath eg a foreigner becoming a citizen.

If the USA has any semblance to the beast of Revelation it is simply that it has nationally distanced itself from any semblance of Christian behaviour (I hope there are exemplary individuals in the USA that don't subscribe to the national notion of exceptionalism inherited from the puritan fathers).

Personally, if I was to take my pick from Revelation, I'd portray the USA per Rev 19;20 = "the false prophet that wrought miracles before [the beast], with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image". Sounds like an apt description of the nation in question...
 
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stillwaters45

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It is one of those things about the USA that mystifies me! Here in Oz, most of us think parroting a bunch of words each day at school and wherever/whenever is an act of hypocrisy - either you are aligned to the country you live in or you are not. Actions speak louder than words!

In most free societies (non-dictatorships) the only time you recite an act of allegience is when you take an oath eg a foreigner becoming a citizen.

If the USA has any semblance to the beast of Revelation it is simply that it has nationally distanced itself from any semblance of Christian behaviour (I hope there are exemplary individuals in the USA that don't subscribe to the national notion of exceptionalism inherited from the puritan fathers).

Personally, if I was to take my pick from Revelation, I'd portray the USA per Rev 19;20 = "the false prophet that wrought miracles before [the beast], with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image". Sounds like an apt description of the nation in question...
I'm new to the suggestion that the second beast is the USA and I wouldn't say I am one hundred percent convinced, but I'm getting there. This idea of exceptionalism is in fact what is reinforced through this daily (at school) allegiance and in other aspects of everyday life. In most countries, you go to a sports event and you go (if you aren't a Christian) to shout, scream, fight, see friends, get drunk and support your team (ok, I'm thinking football in particular). In the USA, it's all about reinforcing these 'values', including exceptionalism, by playing the national anthem before the game. That's why the USA has pastors calling for NFL players to be shot if they don't stand: it is part of the civic religion and has a sacred sense to it. You go to church in other countries, you don't normally see the national flag next to the pastor and the pulpit (and in the place of prominence, even above the station of their fake 'Christian' flag which was inspired by American flag honouring and which is usually on the other side of the preacher, the place of lesser honour).

Add to that the fact that unlike other British ex-colonies, the USA has consciously modelled itself on ancient Rome and ancient Israel, I wonder if the civic religion (for there is nothing like it in other ex-colonies, where a flag is not objectified or treated as a living thing) is in fact idolatry, and not any idolatry, but an idolatry that ultimately is given to the ancient Roman state which inspires it.
The false prophet is usually identified with the second beast. It's interesting that the USA is at the forefront of microchip and laser tattoo technology, and that it can be described as sending fire on its enemies, since the country is bombing someone somewhere just about every single year in the last sixty years. The two horns on the second beast also don't have crowns, unlike the horns on the first beast: republic perhaps?
 
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Marvin Knox

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America is the only country, or rather empire, in the world that is created as a civil project in the image of Rome. The Capitol is named after the Capitoline Hill, on which sat the temple of Jupiter, Washington is portrayed as Romulus in the rotunda of the Capitol building, DC was built on land known as "Rome", it takes it inspiration from Rome, social scientists describe its unique civil religion (worshiping the image of the beast, which is its form of government, inspired by Rome), historians describe the similarities between Rome (monarchy, republic, empire) and the USA, it arose quickly, not in the sea of nations but in a far more sparsely populated region, and soon through a series of historical events became larger than the Roman Empire. It makes fire come down from heaven. It is the only country in the world that is has been bombing people and places in almost every single calendar year over the past sixty years.
What a crock.

I mean that in the Biblical sense.:)
 
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