pledge of allegiance, mark of the beast

[stillwaters45]

For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?

 

[geiroffenberg]

no, but since none of this is true, then we say it with pride.

 

[stillwaters45]

no, but since none of this is true, then we say it with pride.

So if America, founded in 1776, were the prophesied beast with two horns which arises from the land, you wouldn't pledge. Thank you for answering the question.

 

[A_Thinker]

For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?

What is the "American civil religion" ?

 

[stillwaters45]

What is the "American civil religion" ?

Robert Bellah first developed the idea and it has been frequently discussed by social scientists since. Basically, America has a civic religion which mimics real religions, to create a transcendent religious experience.

 

[A_Thinker]

Robert Bellah first developed the idea and it has been frequently discussed by social scientists since. Basically, America has a civic religion which mimics real religions, to create a transcendent religious experience.

Could you describe it a little bit .... ???

 

[stillwaters45]

Here is a brief description:

American civil religion is a sociological theory that a nonsectarian quasi-religious faith exists within the United States with sacred symbols drawn from national history. Scholars have portrayed it as a cohesive force, a common set of values that foster social and cultural integration. The very heavy emphasis on nondenominational religious themes is quite distinctively American and the theory is designed to explain this. The concept goes back to the 19th century, but in current form, the theory was developed by sociologist Robert Bellah in 1967 in his article, "Civil Religion in America". ...

According to Bellah, Americans embrace a common "civil religion" with certain fundamental beliefs, values, holidays, and rituals, parallel to, or independent of, their chosen religion.[2] Presidents have often served in central roles in civil religion, and the nation provides quasi-religious honors to its martyrs—such as Abraham Lincoln and the soldiers killed in the American Civil War.[6] Historians have noted presidential level use of civil religion rhetoric in profoundly moving episodes such as World War II,[7] the Civil Rights Movement,[8] and the September 11th attacks.[9]

An important dimension is the role of the soldiers, ready to sacrifice their lives to preserve the nation. They are memorialized in many monuments and semi-sacred days, such as Veterans Day and Memorial Day.

This belief system has historically been used to reject nonconformist ideas and groups.[1] Theorists such as Bellah hold that American civil religion can perform the religious functions of integration, legitimation, and prophecy, while other theorists, such as Richard Fenn, disagree.[10]

I would recommend reading the entire article:

American civil religion - Wikipedia

 

[pescador]

So if America, founded in 1776, were the prophesied beast with two horns which arises from the land, you wouldn't pledge. Thank you for answering the question.

And if America was a fictional country overseen by magical fairies or any other bizarre description one can invent, would you pledge allegiance to it?

 

[Hal A Peno]

cc

 

[Douggg]

For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?

Do you believe the American form of government is going to change to ten leaders with one leader over them. The beast (as a kingdom) ties back to Daniel 7. In the end times, the fourth kingdom has a government of then kings (leaders) and one leader over then, the little horn.

Take a look at he EU, it's founding back in the 1950's and the changes it has gone through. Has one more change to go.

It is not America in Revelation 13, neither the first beast nor second beast. The second beast is the false prophet, a man.

 

[stillwaters45]

MOOT. America and the pledge isn't the mark. The mark is an IMPRINT.

The mark is in the future. The question is, if America were the second beast of Revelation (the one that eventually gives the mark of the beast), would you still pledge, knowing this? Would you?

 

[stillwaters45]

Do you believe the American form of government is going to change to ten leaders with one leader over them. The beast (as a kingdom) ties back to Daniel 7. In the end times, the fourth kingdom has a government of then kings (leaders) and one leader over then, the little horn.

Take a look at he EU, it's founding back in the 1950's and the changes it has gone through. Has one more change to go.

It is not America in Revelation 13, neither the first beast nor second beast. The second beast is the false prophet, a man.

This is a bit beyond the thread intention, but the beasts of Daniel are kingdoms, and so I think the beasts of Revelation are, also. The beast with ten horns is the first beast. My question is if the second beast were the USA, which reflects the image of the first beast (Rome), would you still pledge? Would you, knowing that the nation founded in 1776 was the beast arising from the land?

 

[A_Thinker]

The mark is in the future. The question is, if America were the second beast of Revelation (the one that eventually gives the mark of the beast), would you still pledge, knowing this? Would you?

How would one know this ... ?

 

[stillwaters45]

How would one know this ... ?

But if you did know this? Would you?
How would we know what the second beast is? I guess by its correspondences to a worldly government/kingdom.

 

[stillwaters45]

America is the only country, or rather empire, in the world that is created as a civil project in the image of Rome. The Capitol is named after the Capitoline Hill, on which sat the temple of Jupiter, Washington is portrayed as Romulus in the rotunda of the Capitol building, DC was built on land known as "Rome", it takes it inspiration from Rome, social scientists describe its unique civil religion (worshiping the image of the beast, which is its form of government, inspired by Rome), historians describe the similarities between Rome (monarchy, republic, empire) and the USA, it arose quickly, not in the sea of nations but in a far more sparsely populated region, and soon through a series of historical events became larger than the Roman Empire. It makes fire come down from heaven. It is the only country in the world that is has been bombing people and places in almost every single calendar year over the past sixty years.

 

[Douggg]

This is a bit beyond the thread intention, but the beasts of Daniel are kingdoms, and so I think the beasts of Revelation are, also.

In Daniel 7, the beasts represent kingdoms - yes. But in Daniel 7:17, there were going to be four notable kings associated with those empires, when history is completed. Nebuchadnezzar - babylon, Cyrus - Medes/Persians, Alexander - Greeks, little horn person - Roman Empire.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

The beast with ten horns is the first beast. My question is if the second beast were the USA, which reflects the image of the first beast (Rome), would you still pledge? Would you, knowing that the nation founded in 1776 was the beast arising from the land?

In Daniel 8:9, the little horn, leader of the end times Roman empire, waxes strong to the south and east toward Israel, from the location of one of the four breakup kingdoms of the Greek empire.. The United States does not geographically qualify.

It's the EU.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Understanding bible prophecy fulfillment in large part is disqualifying different ideas and theories.

 

[A_Thinker]

But if you did know this? Would you?
How would we know what the second beast is? I guess by its correspondences to a worldly government/kingdom.

Wouldn't that apply to any nation/country ???

 

[Dave Watchman]

For those of you who support Christians saying the pledge of allegiance, would you still support saying it if you knew one hundred percent that America was the second beast of Revelation 13 and that the American civic religion was the worship of the image of the first beast (the Roman empire)?

No I wouldn't, but it's not the second beast. I was just talking about this.

As far as I can recall, I only ever remember the SDA people saying that the beast that rises from the earth is the USA. As a corporate group, the Seventh Day Adventists are the best at Bible Prophecy. There's no other group that even comes close. They've got most of the 18 prophetic time periods in their proper place. But one of the places where they miss the mark is with where the United States are found in Bible Prophecy.

And it's really heartbreaking because they came so close. 538 to 1798 the dragon chased the woman all the way through the dark ages of Europe. From the times of the three that were plucked up by the very roots, Ostrogoths, Heruli and the Vandals, until General Berthier put Pope Pius in jail and closed down the Vatican. The beast received his mortal head wound. And then look what was waiting right there to swallow the flood that spewed from the dragon's mouth. The United States was the "earth" that helped the woman. The bad news is that the REAL second beast, Lucifer the Antichrist, is about to rise up from the same "earth" as in Chapter 12, and that's, you guessed it, the United States of America.

The Wiki author here writes it as: "dealing a major "blow" to the Vatican's political power:
Louis-Alexandre Berthier - Wikipedia

"and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days​

A "place prepared by God" is a holy place. In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, there were four blood moons and God was opening up a new continent. A flood was spewing forth from the dragon's mouth but with the help of men like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson a holy place, the earth would be made ready to help the woman after 1260 years of papal persecution came to an end in 1798. The first nation on the planet complete with a "Bible belt" was to be born when it was previously illegal to be caught with one. In 1776 America was founded and would become a safe place for God's people to own, print and study their Bibles.

Prior to this in the dark ages of Europe, entire villages of Christian men, women and children had none of these religious freedoms and were burnt at the stake more often than not for reading or owning their own Bibles. This was the dragon chasing the woman and these estimated 75 million or more Christian martyrs would become the 5th seal souls beneath the alter. Lucifer was the hand that used the early church like a glove which hit the woman very hard during the middle ages. The founding fathers of the USA made sure that church and state were separate, America! America! God shed His grace on thee.

"Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:15
​

Most haven't recognized the U.S.A. as the holy place but when God does a thing it becomes holy, rather than the thing being holy so that God does it. Like when the "ground" became holy for Moses and Joshua. America became the earth who would help the woman in 1776 and at the same time the holy place established by God as a refuge from the persecutions of the church in Rome. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God.

"And how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself." - Exodus 19:4​

"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness,"
- Revelation 12:14​

But then the woman, God's people, were given the two wings so that she could escape from the dragon to the place prepared for her. Like a solid rocket booster on the space shuttle Discovery, wing # 1 was used up during the 1260 years of papal persecution from 538 to 1798. Wing # 2 is still burning it's propellant pending the beast's 42 months of end time authority. But we are not the woman in the wilderness anymore, we are the offspring of the woman, who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus, with whom the dragon is preparing to make war with.

"But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, ​

The Eagle has landed.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled,
appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

-Thomas Jefferson
President of the United States

Letter to the Danbury Baptists - January 1, 1802 - Wikisource, the free online library

Sorry for the long note.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[stillwaters45]

Wouldn't that apply to any nation/country ???

I don't think it fits any other country.

 

[stillwaters45]

In Daniel 7, the beasts represent kingdoms - yes. But in Daniel 7:17, there were going to be four notable kings associated with those empires, when history is completed. Nebuchadnezzar - babylon, Cyrus - Medes/Persians, Alexander - Greeks, little horn person - Roman Empire.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


In Daniel 8:9, the little horn, leader of the end times Roman empire, waxes strong to the south and east toward Israel, from the location of one of the four breakup kingdoms of the Greek empire.. The United States does not geographically qualify.

It's the EU.

8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Understanding bible prophecy fulfillment in large part is disqualifying different ideas and theories.

This little horn rises from the four horns into which the Greek empire divided. It's nothing to do with the Roman Empire. It's probably a reference to Antiochus Epiphanes, as Josephus said. The four kings are defined as four empires. Kings in Daniel = empires. Compare Daniel 7:17 with 7:23-24. It doesn't say that the four kings are four notable kings in those kingdoms. It says that the kings are those beasts, and it calls those beasts, kingdoms. Out of the fourth beast or kingdom (or king in the prophetic language), ten kings, or horns, arise. This is the same as the first beast of Rev 13. The second beast is a new kingdom that comes in the image of the first beast (Rome) and makes everyone worship its image (through its civic religion).