Does 1 Cor 15:50-58 speak of the rapture or not?

vinsight4u said:

The saints that arose after Jesus Christ did -had to go back to the grave. They were not yet given life in themselves. Only Jesus Christ has put on immortality

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The saints that arose after the resurrection of Jesus - had to go to heaven with Him. They were given life as the firstfruits of the Old Covenant. They put on immortality and will return with Him, just as they left with Him.

keras said:

Pure conjecture and erroneous reasoning.
The disciples saw Jesus Ascend. Acts 1:9 They didn't see anyone accompanying Him.
These desperate attempts to obtain immortality before Judgement, are added to support the greater lie of the pre-trib rapture. It won't happen and no amount of wishful thinking will help.
Why not believe the truth of God's great promises of protection during His Day of wrath, then the amazing prophesies of all the Lord's faithful Christians living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Psalms 37:29, Romans 9:24-26

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Pure conjecture and erroneous reasoning.

As Christ was taken, so will He return. Jude 14. The saints will return with Him just as they were taken with Him. These desperate attempts to hide immortality before Judgment, are added to support this greater lie. It won't happen and no amount of wishful thinking will help.

Why not believe the truth of God's great promise of deliverance from "all these things" then the amazing prophecies of all the Lord's faithful Christians living in peace in their rooms in heaven and prosperity in all of the holy land in the 1,000 year reign? Luke 21:36, John 14:1-3

keras said:

Because what you promote: immortality before the Great White Throne Judgement and the Church living in heaven are never stated in the Bible.
I challenge you to show the proofs of your beliefs from the Bible.

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I have not only shown the Scriptural proofs, but I have also thereby shown you why your view is mistaken, in posts #115, #120, #126, #127 and #136. You never responded to the content of these posts. Instead you have chosen to pound the table with your view and references to a scattering of other verses.

You see Keras, if you wish to show your brother the error of his ways, you must first listen to what he is saying to you. Then, you must respond to what he says, addressing each point he makes, or at least make an attempt to. That is what a truly edifying discussion is about. Ignoring the arguments of the other camp and covering one's ears while shouting "the Bible doesn't say that" is what is childish. I have noticed that many on this forum engage in this behavior. They do "drive-by" postings, never actually engaging with the arguments. Some just disappear when they are asked hard questions...

For example:

in post #115, I said:

Paul doesn't situate the believers who are of those who "shall not all sleep"/who are alive at the end of the millenium, but rather at its beginning as per v. 50: the inheritance of the kingdom of God is something that precedes the end of the millenium, by definition, because the former (inheritance) is the inauguration of the latter (millenium).

Where is your answer to that?

in post #126 I explained to you that the word "appeared" is indicative of resurrected/immortal bodies re Matt 27:53

Where is your answer to that?

In post #126 I asked you to show me where is the evidence those raised in Matt 27:53 "died again" (according to you). I am still waiting... I showed you the evidence for why I believe these believers were raised immortal and ascended to heaven in #136. But again, crickets...

I challenge you to have an honest debate.

vinsight4u said:

1 Timothy 6:16
"Who only hath immortality..."

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The sense of this verse is ontological, Christ is the only one who has life eternal in and of Himself. The verse does not deny that Christ gives this immortality to His own, see below.

vinsight4u said:

John 5:26
"For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He give to the Son to have life in Himself."

We are not to marvel as to the time when some saints came out of the graves and were seen by many, because one day will come the resurrection of life. This will be for all of the ones that have done good.

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Half a truth is no truth at all:

John 5:21
"21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will."

For more, see post #126 in this thread. Please also see #148 above.

vinsight4u said:

Romans 8:11
"But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the
dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead
shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you,"
the Spirit that raised up Jesus

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Yes, that is gloriously true. And it poses no contradiction to the truth that Christ gave immortality to those who came out of the graves in Matt 27:53, the firstfruits of the resurrection (of whom Christ is the first) and a fulfillment of the waving of the sheaf during the feast of Firstfruits. The Romans whom Paul speaks of would receive their immortality at their appointed time.

Did you read post #148 on the principles of an honest debate?

Or will you persist in unfruitful, "drive-by" posting?

vinsight4u said:

Revelation 1:5

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
/the first begotten of the dead

from the time of Adam

1 Corinthians 15:22

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Christ= the firstfruits
the rest - waits till He returns

“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”

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15:23 ἕκαστος δὲ ἐν τῷ ἰδίῳ τάγματι ἀπαρχὴ Χριστός ἔπειτα οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ

There is no article "the" in front of "firstfruits/aparche". So what the greek text says is literally "Christ firstfruits", which does not limit the firstfruits to Christ.

Second, your quote of v. 23 actually proves my point, that each man is raised according to his own rank, as in a body of soldiers/corps/band. Those who were dead in Matt 27:53 then raised from the dead were raised immortal according to their own rank, as firstfruits of the Old Covenant saints.

"Coming" in that same v. 23 is also a poor translation, it should be at His "presence" which encompasses more than His return to the earth, also involving His literal presence before His revelation to all.

vinsight4u said:

those that sleep in Jesus
come back with Him to get changed

This means that Enoch will first die as one of the two witnesses and thus, become among those that sleep.

the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible

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Mere conjecture on your part, you cannot support this with Scripture.

But good on you for bringing Enoch up.

Question for you and Keras is: Enoch was taken to heaven, not merely the skies. Of whom is he the type and shadow?

Who are the moderators on this site?

Keras,

I pray that one day you will come to realize that a debate is a two-way street, and involves give and take. That is what makes for progress and pleases God. Refusing to answer your opponents' arguments or simply ignoring them does nothing to advance what you believe in. If anything, it actually severely impacts your credibility.

God Bless,
P92