Salvation?

Arsenios

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Sorry, I do my own homework.

Let’s be like the Bereans even though Paul was indeed a messenger of God they did not just received the Word with eagerness but they also examined the Scriptures daily.

The Bereans Search the Scriptures (Acts 17:11 HCSB)

Finding a Calvinist you trust who can read the Greek of this passage would be a good thing...
I mean, if "doing your own homework" means learning Greek,
then I'll see ya in a couple of years!

Arsenios

ps - I read and kiss the Bible every day...
A revered and Holy Book indeed!
 
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ladodgers6

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Finding a Calvinist you trust who can read the Greek of this passage would be a good thing...
I mean, if "doing your own homework" means learning Greek,
then I'll see ya in a couple of years!

Arsenios

ps - I read and kiss the Bible every day...
A revered and Holy Book indeed!

Ditto, people tend to always, favor translations to their position. I have something to share with you, about your viewpoint of 5:12-21. And taking it as a unit. Because if you change the meaning of one word, then these passages no longer fit as a unit. Do you agree?
 
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Arsenios

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(re Romans) 5:12-21. ...As a unit.
If you change the meaning of one word, then these passages no longer fit as a unit. Do you agree?
Oh, they fit very well, but if you misunderstand the one word you are misunderstanding, then when you construct meanings of the rest of the verses around that one misunderstanding, you will indeed find the whole meaning changed because of your one error...

The death of all did not occur because of their sin, but because of Adam's one sin...
They died without sinning according to Adam at all... Just as the pericope states...
That is why I am just showing you the epi-ho, the EFO, which you so wrongly misunderstand because of the punt on the eact translation which the KJV team committed, probably because they understood it wrongly as do you...

Translated as you underestand it, the meaning of the passage does not fit together as a unit...
It makes perfect sense as accurately translated - Death "on which" all have sinned...

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Oh, they fit very well, but if you misunderstand the one word you are misunderstanding, then when you construct meanings of the rest of the verses around that one misunderstanding, you will indeed find the whole meaning changed because of your one error...
Lol............I know where you stand on it Arsenios.
The death of all did not occur because of their sin, but because of Adam's one sin...
Thank you, I 100% agree with this assessment. One down, two to go.
They died without sinning according to Adam at all... Just as the pericope states...
This present big problems for you. Sorry to say.
That is why I am just showing you the epi-ho, the EFO, which you so wrongly misunderstand because of the punt on the eact translation which the KJV team committed, probably because they understood it wrongly as do you...

Lol..........yes Arsenios I know you are odds with us. As we are looking into this translation of yours. We are not seeing the problem you claim we have. But before I come to my conclusion. I will not rush it, but keep studying it.
Translated as you underestand it, the meaning of the passage does not fit together as a unit...
It makes perfect sense as accurately translated - Death "on which" all have sinned...

Arsenios

Yes I know your position here. But it does not fit the unit, and I will explain it soon.
 
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ladodgers6

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Here it is with Strong's numbers from the Textus Receptus of the KJV...
The KJV translators got the TR from us, by the way...

Rom 5:12 δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν εφ ω παντες ημαρτον

__________________________________________________________________
εφG1909 PREP ωG3739 R-DSN

PREP = Preposition
R-DSN = Relative (pronoun) Dative (case) Singular, Neuter

G1909

ἐπί
epi
ep-ee'
εφ
ef
A primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.: - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of) over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).
Total KJV occurrences: 885


_______________________________________________________________
G3739

ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
hos hē ho
hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
Total KJV occurrences: 1364

According to this, it should translate "on which"...
I stand corrected...

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Here it is with Strong's numbers from the Textus Receptus of the KJV...
The KJV translators got the TR from us, by the way...

Rom 5:12 δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους ο θανατος διηλθεν εφ ω παντες ημαρτον

__________________________________________________________________
εφG1909 PREP ωG3739 R-DSN

PREP = Preposition
R-DSN = Relative (pronoun) Dative (case) Singular, Neuter

G1909

ἐπί
epi
ep-ee'
εφ
ef
A primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.: - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of) over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).
Total KJV occurrences: 885


_______________________________________________________________
G3739

ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
hos hē ho
hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.
Total KJV occurrences: 1364

According to this, it should translate "on which"...
I stand corrected...

Arsenios

Dear Friend, thanks for your patience, thanks for sharing with me. I am glad we got to engage is these theological discussions. I thank you, I have learn from you. Because I believe we can move forward with others, without debating with raised voices or clinched teeth or gotcha questions you know they can't answer.

I want to learn what EOC teaches, and learn it, so I can understand it. But once people know I am a convinced Calvinist, they shun me with insults, or with taunting words. Or judge me, when they know nothing about what I believe and why I believe it. People think they know Classical Calvinism through third party or the 5 points. And this just wrong to do. Yea, I know I am wining. That's my 2 wooden nickels.

Answering your question in regard to "eph w" or "epi w"; "upon which/on which" vs "because/for that", in Romans 5:12. Has been heavily debated. Here are 3 major options:

(1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, “death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned.” (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning “death spread to all people with the result that all sinned.” (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: “death spread to all people because all sinned.”

Researching εφ ω ,I know we are not going to agree. As I said before I wanted to learn what EOC teaches, so that I don't caricature it. I did not want to debate with you. All I can do is share what the Reformed Faith believes & teaches. We will not agree on everything, and that is find with me. I just to understand the EOC position.

Romans 5 Paul is preaching & teaching, how a sinner is justified before a Holy God. This chapter Paul explicitly points out, that by One we are made sinners, and by One we are made righteous. This is clear what Paul is saying here.

And I know where you stand on it. So I presented the Reformed View. And I thank you for presenting the EOC view.

May I ask a different question? I am having a discussion with another EOC member. And He could not answer this, so I hoping you will share with me.

How does God change a person into His nature or energy? Does it happen in this life or the next? What steps are needed to be changed into this energy?
 
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Arsenios

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Dear Friend, thanks for your patience, thanks for sharing with me. I am glad we got to engage is these theological discussions. I thank you, I have learn from you. Because I believe we can move forward with others, without debating with raised voices or clinched teeth or gotcha questions you know they can't answer.

I want to learn what EOC teaches, and learn it, so I can understand it. But once people know I am a convinced Calvinist, they shun me with insults, or with taunting words. Or judge me, when they know nothing about what I believe and why I believe it. People think they know Classical Calvinism through third party or the 5 points. And this just wrong to do. Yea, I know I am wining. That's my 2 wooden nickels.

Usually it is the Calvinists who are giving other Christians reason to whine like you! :)

Answering your question in regard to "eph w" or "epi w"; "upon which/on which" vs "because/for that", in Romans 5:12. Has been heavily debated. Here are 3 major options:

(1) the phrase can be taken as a relative clause in which the pronoun refers to Adam, “death spread to all people in whom [Adam] all sinned.” (2) The phrase can be taken with consecutive (resultative) force, meaning “death spread to all people with the result that all sinned.” (3) Others take the phrase as causal in force: “death spread to all people because all sinned.”

The first two have legitimacy, and essentially say the same thing, even while disagreeing on the noun to which the -w- is referring - eg Adam vs Death. They agree because Adam died. We who are in Adam die because Adam died. Yet gramatically, in cannot refer to Adam, and it cannot refer to sin. It can only refer to death...

(3) makes no sense in the Greek at all... That is a classic eisegetical inference...

Researching εφ ω ,I know we are not going to agree. As I said before I wanted to learn what EOC teaches, so that I don't caricature it. I did not want to debate with you. All I can do is share what the Reformed Faith believes & teaches. We will not agree on everything, and that is fine with me. I just want to understand the EOC position.

epi plus a dative is what we have here, and it is a dative of agency, signifying a static condition:

"of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc." So that the other things moving [sins] have their basis in the fact of that to which the dative pronoun refers - eg death...

Romans 5 Paul is preaching & teaching, how a sinner is justified before a Holy God. This chapter Paul explicitly points out, that by One we are made sinners, and by One we are made righteous. This is clear what Paul is saying here.

Actually, 5:12 is simply telling us how we got from Adam to our lives prior to Christ... Your issue arises later, and is being grounded here... They know about Adam - They are being persuaded about Christ. [or not...]

And I know where you stand on it. So I presented the Reformed View. And I thank you for presenting the EOC view.

I know the reformed view thinks that we die because we all sin...
The text says that we did not sin prior to the Law of Moses, and all died...

May I ask a different question? I am having a discussion with another EOC member. And He could not answer this, so I hoping you will share with me.

How does God change a person into His nature or energy?

Baptism, Chrismation, Repentance, Prayer, the Mysteries of the Church, Communion, and ultimately by a divine encounter that transfigures the person encountering God with a heart purified in repentance...

Does it happen in this life or the next?

This life, in an earnest, as Paul writes...

What steps are needed to be changed into this energy?

We are not "changed into" Divine Energy... We are transformed by it into becoming more and more fully human as God intended us to be... We are created in the Image of God, and seek His Likeness... He gives it as a Gift called Salvation, wherein a person with a purified heart will acquire and hold more of the Grace of God than one with an unrepentant heart... The steps are denial of self [repentance] unto Baptism into Christ unto deep repentance unto being divinized by God...

"Whom God calls, these He Justifies...
Whom He Justifies, these He Glorifies...
Glorification is Theosis or Divinization by God...
To those not properly discipled,
His Divine Energies end up in distortions...

Fundamentally, we need to live in deep repentance in this life
In order to KNOW God in this life...
The Apostolic Churches know the Way of Repentance...
Well, at least they should...

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Usually it is the Calvinists who are giving other Christians reason to whine like you! :)
LOL..........funny guy. I needed that.
The first two have legitimacy, and essentially say the same thing, even while disagreeing on the noun to which the -w- is referring - eg Adam vs Death. They agree because Adam died. We who are in Adam die because Adam died. Yet gramatically, in cannot refer to Adam, and it cannot refer to sin. It can only refer to death...

Yes, I have heard your position, and understand it. But where problems exist is, "We who are in Adam". What do you mean by, "We who are 'IN' Adam? You strongly affirm ONLY death is inherited. But Paul says differently.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, (King James)

Now this is crystal clear. It says "By ONE MAN"S disobedience/sin many were MADE SINNERS. So this puts to bed the debate of verse 12. Paul finishes off his thought from verse 12 in vss.15-19. The explicit and repeated affirmations of the context to the effect that condemnation and death reign over all is because of the ONE SIN of the ONE MAN Adam. On at least five occasions in vss.15-19 this is asserted--"by the trespass of the ONE the many died" (vs.15); "the judgement was from ONE unto condemnation" (vs.16); "by the trespass of the ONE death reigned through the ONE" (vs.17); "through ONE trespass judgement came upon all men unto condemnation" (vs.18); "through the disobedience of the ONE MAN the many were constituted sinners" (vs.19). This reiteration establishes beyond doubt that the apostle regarded condemnation and death as having passed onto all men by the ONE trespass of the ONE MAN Adam. This sustained appeal to the ONE SIN of the ONE MAN rules out the possibility of construing it as equivalent to the actual personal transgressions of countless individuals. The problem is looking at it atomistically; when it should be looked at solidarity.
Actually, 5:12 is simply telling us how we got from Adam to our lives prior to Christ... Your issue arises later, and is being grounded here... They know about Adam - They are being persuaded about Christ. [or not...]

I beg to differ. This is Paul teaching us about Justification. How a constituted sinner in Adam, is constituted righteous in Christ! By One trespass all of mankind is sentence to condemnation & death. And by One act of Righteousness many were constituted righteous, declared justified unto Life!
I know the reformed view thinks that we die because we all sin...
The text says that we did not sin prior to the Law of Moses, and all died...
I beg to differ. In Hosea 6:7 it states that Adam did break the Covenant with disobedience. What is disobedience? How can one be disobedient? How can one be righteous? I know the EOC teaches that there is no Law that Adam had to obey. If so, then how did he fall? Obeying and disobeying is adhering to a Law, or a command ordered by authority. Which comes with conditions & sanctions.
 
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ladodgers6

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I will share with you.

The parallel instituted in Romans 5:12-19 as a whole is that between the way in which condemnation passes upon men through the sin of Adam and the way justification comes to men through the righteousness of Christ. In the case of the righteousness of Christ, this righteousness comes to the justified through no other medium than that of 'UNION' with Christ; it is not mediated through the righteousness inwrought in the believer in regeneration and sanctification. To use the language of imputation, it is not by mediate imputation that believers come into the possession of the righteousness of Christ in justification. It would be contradictory of Paul's doctrine of justification to suppose that the righteousness and obedience of Christ becomes our unto justification because holiness is conveyed to us from Christ or that the righteousness of Christ is mediated to us through the holiness generated in us by regeneration. The one ground upon which the imputation of the righteousness of Christ becomes ours is the 'UNION' with Christ. In other words, the justified person is constituted righteous by the obedience of Christ because of the solidarity established between Christ and the justified person. The solidarity constitutes the bond by which the righteousness of Christ becomes that of the believer. Once the solidarity is posited there is no other mediating factor that could be conceived of as necessary to the conjunction of the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of the believer. This is to say that the conjunction is immediate. If the case is thus on that side of the analogy which pertains to justification, we should expect the modus operandi to be the same in connection with condemnation. To put the argument in the order underlying the parallelism, immediate imputation in the case of Adam's sin provides the parallel by which to illustrate the doctrine of justification and is thus eminently germane to the governing thesis of the apostle in this part of the epistle.

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, page 70.
 
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Arsenios

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I will share with you.

The parallel instituted in Romans 5:12-19 as a whole is that between the way in which condemnation passes upon men through the sin of Adam and the way justification comes to men through the righteousness of Christ. In the case of the righteousness of Christ, this righteousness comes to the justified through no other medium than that of 'UNION' with Christ; it is not mediated through the righteousness inwrought in the believer in regeneration and sanctification. To use the language of imputation, it is not by mediate imputation that believers come into the possession of the righteousness of Christ in justification. It would be contradictory of Paul's doctrine of justification to suppose that the righteousness and obedience of Christ becomes our unto justification because holiness is conveyed to us from Christ or that the righteousness of Christ is mediated to us through the holiness generated in us by regeneration. The one ground upon which the imputation of the righteousness of Christ becomes ours is the 'UNION' with Christ. In other words, the justified person is constituted righteous by the obedience of Christ because of the solidarity established between Christ and the justified person. The solidarity constitutes the bond by which the righteousness of Christ becomes that of the believer. Once the solidarity is posited there is no other mediating factor that could be conceived of as necessary to the conjunction of the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of the believer. This is to say that the conjunction is immediate. If the case is thus on that side of the analogy which pertains to justification, we should expect the modus operandi to be the same in connection with condemnation. To put the argument in the order underlying the parallelism, immediate imputation in the case of Adam's sin provides the parallel by which to illustrate the doctrine of justification and is thus eminently germane to the governing thesis of the apostle in this part of the epistle.

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, page 70.

Thank-you for John Murray's words...

I had never closely followed this kind of "theological" reasoning...

I must confess to you that I doubt I will ever do so again...

May I simply say that this involuted and labyrinthian style of 'theological' thinking is utterly foreign to the Apostolic and historic Church, and constitutes the camel the Reformation swallowed in their breakaway from Rome while straining the gnats of indulgences and other Latin excesses... This is neo-Scholasticism on steroids...

In the EOC we are re-birthed in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration and given the Anointing Seal [Chrismated] into the Body of Christ, at which point we are babes in Christ, and in Him we grow (hopefully) to maturity in Christ.

In Murray, the rebirth of Baptism into Christ is replaced by his theory of: "posited solidarity established between Christ and the justified person." This is what John calls "union with Christ"... I presume that it is known by a specific personal Spiritual event of private and personal spiritual interpretation, and is NOT the action of any governing body...

We simply do not believe in "posited solidarity"... We believe in Christ... Christ never talked about posited solidarity... We KNOW the SOUND of our Master's VOICE... And posited solidarity has nothing familiar about it... Our children, who talk to Jesus each night in prayer, would have no recognition of Christ in this neo-scholastic concept... Nor wouild our teens... Nor our young adults... Nor our elders, who also have been known to talk with Jesus every night...

Establishment of a posited solidarity with Christ - Forgive me my Brother - is a crazy-cakes way of approaching the unapproachable God of our Fathers... Paul himself would not recognize this line of parallelism... Paul constituted Bishops who Baptized people INTO Christ, and the Church which Baptized Paul and gave him the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias has been Baptizing the Nations into Christ ever since... The Church IS the Body of Christ, and has the exousia, the power and the authority, to Baptize, because Christ commanded His Body to do so, and thus it is Christ Who is Baptizing in His Body those being baptized INTO his Body, the Church...

There is NO positing of solidarity constituting our union with Christ...
We are simply Baptized BY Christ INTO Christ...

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ.

These are Paul's very words...

I commend them to you...

May I add? Will you complete this sentence?

"For as many of you as have NOT been baptized INTO Christ...???"

Baptism INTO Christ BY Christ at the Hands of His Servants WITHIN the Body of Christ is a very, very big deal...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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I will share with you.

I will walk you through Murray's words one time...

JohnMurray said:
The parallel instituted in Romans 5:12-19 as a whole is that between the way in which condemnation passes upon men through the sin of Adam and the way justification comes to men through the righteousness of Christ.

Latin legalism begins here with the term condemnation. It utterly misses the Love of God Who IS Love... What God did with Adam and Eve and the Serpent and the Earth itself, indeed all Creation, the Kosmos, was an Act of the infinite Love of God for man and for all creation...

Joh 3:16
οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
For in this manner did God Love the KOSMOS

ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν,
So that His Son the Onlybegotten He gave

ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται,
In order that all believing into Him should not die

ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
But should have Life Everlasting

With the fall of Adam all creation, the Kosmos, fell...
The fall was by God's Curse...
That Curse was and remains an act of Love...
For by it Adam lived (in deprivation of Life) another 900+ years...
And those born IN Adam (eg into his death) have an opportunity to live repentant lives...

So that Adam was not condemned TO death by God...
He committed suicide that very day by his eating of death...
God made sure, by His cursing and expulsion of Adam,
that his death would be overcome through His Son...

His Onlybegotten Son in order that all those believing INTO Him should have everlasting Life...

Joh 17:3
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή,
Now this IS Everlasting Life

ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν
that they should be knowing You the One True God

καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν.
and Whom You sent Jesuis Christ

"Knowing You the One True God" is the Marriage of the Lamb...
The same verb, TO KNOW, means conjugal relations in human marriage...
It is a far, far more intimate and pervasive relationship with God...
Which leaves carnal relations infinitely far beneath it...

Justification does not come through the Righteousness of Christ...
It comes through Christ Himself...
In the Marriage of the Lamb...
A vast and hidden Marriage...

I will take Murray's next line in the next post...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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I will share with you.

In the case of the righteousness of Christ,
this righteousness comes to the justified through no other medium than that of 'UNION' with Christ;
it is not mediated through the righteousness inwrought in the believer in regeneration and sanctification.

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, page 70.

If you ask Murray what this looks like in ordinary experience, what would he say?
I do not think you can answer that question apart from a private spiritual event.

As to the theoretical, what exactly IS the Righteousness of Christ?
Justification means to make someone righteous...
Righteousness is right relationship with God...
Christ is both God and man in one Person with two natures...

Hence, righteousness cannot come to the justified...
And Union with God cannot come to anyone with any impurity in his heart...
Perfect purity is only attained in the Baptismal waters...
The perfection of the person comes later (normally)...
And with that perfecting can come the Gifts of the Holy Spirit...
But the Seal of the Anointing abides to the end...
Whether he lives a holy or a sinful life after Baptism...

Baptism is an ontological event, not a social proclamation...

Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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Thank-you for John Murray's words...

I had never closely followed this kind of "theological" reasoning...

I must confess to you that I doubt I will ever do so again...

May I simply say that this involuted and labyrinthian style of 'theological' thinking is utterly foreign to the Apostolic and historic Church, and constitutes the camel the Reformation swallowed in their breakaway from Rome while straining the gnats of indulgences and other Latin excesses... This is neo-Scholasticism on steroids...

No Sir, the Reformers intention was not to destroy or break away from Rome. They wanted to Reformed the Church back to Scriptures; back to Christ. But when the corrupt Church did not want that. They parted ways. The false teaches of Rome is what the Reformers wanted gone, not the Church.

And the indulgences was a small part of it. The central debate was Justification by Faith; is was that the heart of Reformation. As the Reformers utilized the printing presses barely invented in the 1500's. They translated the Bible into the native language, so that everyone could read it. So that corrupt men could be expose for deceiving so many. Neo-Scholasticism on Steroids, I believe you do not understand the Reformed Faith at all, sorry o say. This assessment is not even in the same ball park.

In the EOC we are re-birthed in the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration and given the Anointing Seal [Chrismated] into the Body of Christ, at which point we are babes in Christ, and in Him we grow (hopefully) to maturity in Christ.

I agree with most of this. Because when God promises (Covenant) to saved His people from their sins. We are saved in Christ. Its Christ who is the object of our Redemption/Salvation. He is our Redemption/Salvation.

Romans 8:29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

So we trust and believe in God and His word. That He justifies the ungodly!
In Murray, the rebirth of Baptism into Christ is replaced by his theory of: "posited solidarity established between Christ and the justified person." This is what John calls "union with Christ"... I presume that it is known by a specific personal Spiritual event of private and personal spiritual interpretation, and is NOT the action of any governing body...

Are you completely missing the whole point here. You make a quick rush to judgement about something you admit, you have no knowledge of. So you will caricature it, without clause, but with prejudice. I want to learn & understand what the EOC teaches. So that I do not caricature its beliefs.

So I will share with you with Love, not hate. The doctrine Paul is illustrating by appeal to the analogy of the condemnation and death proceeding from Adam is the doctrine that men are justified by the free grace of God on the basis of the righteousness and obedience of Christ. What Paul has been controverting in the earlier part of the epistle is that men are not justified by their own works. He is establishing the truth that men are justified and attain to life by what another has done, the One Man Jesus Christ (This Arsenios was at the heart of the Reformation).
We simply do not believe in "posited solidarity"... We believe in Christ... Christ never talked about posited solidarity... We KNOW the SOUND of our Master's VOICE... And posited solidarity has nothing familiar about it... Our children, who talk to Jesus each night in prayer, would have no recognition of Christ in this neo-scholastic concept... Nor wouild our teens... Nor our young adults... Nor our elders, who also have been known to talk with Jesus every night...

Your prejudice blinds you here. Posited solidarity is a view of all falling together in unison; unity. Not atomistically; individually. Paul on at least 5 occasions in successive verses (15,16,17,18,19) refers the universal reign of condemnation and death to the ONE trespass of the ONE man Adam. This means that the sin referred to in verse 12, particularly in the last clause, must be that same sin that is defined in verse 18 as "the one trespass" and inverse 19as "the disobedience of the one man". And when we go back to the three preceding verses (15-17) and bear in mind the closely knit unity of the passage, we must conclude that the sin is in view in verses 15,17 where it is called the trespass of the one.
This sustained emphasis upon the "ONENESS" of the sin and of the righteousness is posited solidarity.
Establishment of a posited solidarity with Christ - Forgive me my Brother - is a crazy-cakes way of approaching the unapproachable God of our Fathers... Paul himself would not recognize this line of parallelism... Paul constituted Bishops who Baptized people INTO Christ, and the Church which Baptized Paul and gave him the Holy Spirit at the hands of Ananias has been Baptizing the Nations into Christ ever since... The Church IS the Body of Christ, and has the exousia, the power and the authority, to Baptize, because Christ commanded His Body to do so, and thus it is Christ Who is Baptizing in His Body those being baptized INTO his Body, the Church...

You are confounding what we are discussing here. You said, "Paul himself would not recognize this line of parallelism... ". Paul is making a contrast between these two Adams: Sin & Righteousness; Disobedience & Obedience; Condemnation & Justification; Death & Life. These are the parallelism Paul is making. How one bought sin, death & condemnation, and how another bought righteousness, justification & life. Paul is talking about Justification of the sinner in Christ.
There is NO positing of solidarity constituting our union with Christ...
We are simply Baptized BY Christ INTO Christ...

I beg to differ. Paul says in verse 19, "so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous". It would be contradictory of Paul's doctrine of justification to suppose that the righteousness and obedience of Christ become our unto justification because holiness is conveyed to us from Christ or that the righteousness of Christ is mediated to us through the holiness generated in us by regeneration.
Its by the WORKS of Christ that we are justified. Not in anything we do or will do.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ.

These are Paul's very words...

I commend them to you...

May I add? Will you complete this sentence?

"For as many of you as have NOT been baptized INTO Christ...???"

Baptism INTO Christ BY Christ at the Hands of His Servants WITHIN the Body of Christ is a very, very big deal...

Arsenios
I love Galatians. Before we get to this, lets see what Paul says.

The Law and the Promise

15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Christ the Promised Seed sent by God who loves, freed us from sin, condemnation & death. Through His doing; His Obedience. We are made righteous because of HIS One righteous Act, not ours!
 
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Arsenios

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  • No Sir, the Reformers intention was not to destroy or break away from Rome. They wanted to Reformed the Church back to Scriptures; back to Christ. But when the corrupt Church did not want that. They parted ways. The false teaches of Rome is what the Reformers wanted gone, not the Church.

    And the indulgences was a small part of it. The central debate was Justification by Faith; is was that the heart of Reformation. As the Reformers utilized the printing presses barely invented in the 1500's. They translated the Bible into the native language, so that everyone could read it. So that corrupt men could be expose for deceiving so many. Neo-Scholasticism on Steroids, I believe you do not understand the Reformed Faith at all, sorry o say. This assessment is not even in the same ball park.



    I agree with most of this. Because when God promises (Covenant) to saved His people from their sins. We are saved in Christ. Its Christ who is the object of our Redemption/Salvation. He is our Redemption/Salvation.

    Romans 8:29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    So we trust and believe in God and His word. That He justifies the ungodly!


    Are you completely missing the whole point here. You make a quick rush to judgement about something you admit, you have no knowledge of. So you will caricature it, without clause, but with prejudice. I want to learn & understand what the EOC teaches. So that I do not caricature its beliefs.

    So I will share with you with Love, not hate. The doctrine Paul is illustrating by appeal to the analogy of the condemnation and death proceeding from Adam is the doctrine that men are justified by the free grace of God on the basis of the righteousness and obedience of Christ. What Paul has been controverting in the earlier part of the epistle is that men are not justified by their own works. He is establishing the truth that men are justified and attain to life by what another has done, the One Man Jesus Christ (This Arsenios was at the heart of the Reformation).


    Your prejudice blinds you here. Posited solidarity is a view of all falling together in unison; unity. Not atomistically; individually. Paul on at least 5 occasions in successive verses (15,16,17,18,19) refers the universal reign of condemnation and death to the ONE trespass of the ONE man Adam. This means that the sin referred to in verse 12, particularly in the last clause, must be that same sin that is defined in verse 18 as "the one trespass" and inverse 19as "the disobedience of the one man". And when we go back to the three preceding verses (15-17) and bear in mind the closely knit unity of the passage, we must conclude that the sin is in view in verses 15,17 where it is called the trespass of the one.
    This sustained emphasis upon the "ONENESS" of the sin and of the righteousness is posited solidarity.


    You are confounding what we are discussing here. You said, "Paul himself would not recognize this line of parallelism... ". Paul is making a contrast between these two Adams: Sin & Righteousness; Disobedience & Obedience; Condemnation & Justification; Death & Life. These are the parallelism Paul is making. How one bought sin, death & condemnation, and how another bought righteousness, justification & life. Paul is talking about Justification of the sinner in Christ.


    I beg to differ. Paul says in verse 19, "so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous". It would be contradictory of Paul's doctrine of justification to suppose that the righteousness and obedience of Christ become our unto justification because holiness is conveyed to us from Christ or that the righteousness of Christ is mediated to us through the holiness generated in us by regeneration.
    Its by the WORKS of Christ that we are justified. Not in anything we do or will do.
    I love Galatians. Before we get to this, lets see what Paul says.

    The Law and the Promise

    15To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

    Christ the Promised Seed sent by God who loves, freed us from sin, condemnation & death. Through His doing; His Obedience. We are made righteous because of HIS One righteous Act, not ours!
    Forgive me for upsetting you...
  • Christ Justifies by uniting Himself to us in the Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...
  • We hold this Mystery in a purified conscience
  • We are given this purity in Baptism...
  • We keep it unto maturity by living repentant lives...
Paul never speaks of "positing" anything...
It is not Christ's WORKS that justify us...
It is Christ Himself who does so...

Salvation does not begin with justification...

Christ was obedient unto death on the Cross...
We are Baptized into that Death...

You cannot build Theology on Pauline epistles...

They are not theological treatises, but pastoral letters...

The Gospels will serve you better...

Salvation is not about ideas posited...


Arsenios
 
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ladodgers6

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I will walk you through Murray's words one time...
Arsenios, I understand my boy Murray.
Latin legalism begins here with the term condemnation. It utterly misses the Love of God Who IS Love... What God did with Adam and Eve and the Serpent and the Earth itself, indeed all Creation, the Kosmos, was an Act of the infinite Love of God for man and for all creation...

Why do I get the feeling that you guys think, that we do not believe God loves His people? This couldn't be further from the truth. I always scratch my head when I read or hear people say that there is no condemnation or wrath of God. And this is just plain wrong, sorry Arsenios. Because God is Love, does not mean He does not demand Perfect Holiness from us. Because God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Over and over God punished the wicked for sin.

Do you guys even believe in being Morally good? If so why? Why is repentance SO important to the east? If there is no Law to adhere too, according to the East. Then how do people repent? How do they know what to turn from? If the Law is not a requirement to follow for Holy Living. Then how do people know how to live?

Condemnation is real, real serious, Arsenios. So serious that it take God to come in Christ to save us from it. What was Christ here to do? Well, Christ says in John 6,

John 6:38 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Which is what, Arsenios? Remember that Promise He made to Adam & Eve, and Abraham too? To send a Promised Seed, to save His people from their sins, death and condemnation. Not just death, and all 3 evils, that binds us under the curse of the Law. I will provide Scripture.

10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

There is so much to unpack here. I love Galatians. I will ask questions for you to ponder upon. And hope it will spark you to think about what Paul is saying here. Like you I love God's word. I love reading it, and studying it. Why is everyone under the curse of the Law? Why did Christ have to redeem us from the curse of the Law? If there is no condemnation? What does curse mean here? Clearly it means being obedient or disobedient. But we will always be disobedient, that is why Christ had too redeem us from the curse of the Law.

Matthew 5:17 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Once again Christ says He came to FULFILL the Law? Why? Think about this before you respond. Christ could have just came and died to redeem us. But He came to FULFILL what the first Adam transgressed. And Romans 5 is explicit in regards to this. God is Love, and is why He came in Christ knowing what needed to be done for the ungodly. God came in the flesh, born under the Law; to fulfill it. And to kill sin in the flesh. Why did Christ have to kill sin in the flesh?

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Why did God made Him sin on our behalf? This is a crucial question and I hope you do not avoid it. Because this clearly demonstrates God's love for us. So I do not disagree with you that God is Love. But God is White Hot Holiness. God hates sin. God punishes sin. God condemns sin. And the Reformed Faith believes & teaches that God still Loves us while we are still sinners.

Romans 5:8 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

So we agree with you that God is Love. We also believe that God is wrathful against the wicked. God is both the JUST & the JUSTIFER (Romans 3:26)

So is misconception that we do not believe God is Love. Is a false witness against us. Because we do believe God is Love. God will not allow evil to go unpunished. That is contrary to His nature. I do not see you guys talking about God's Law, or being Holy as our Father in heaven is Perfect. I get the feeling you guys downplay sin & condemnation. And I ask for your forgiveness if I am wrong. But that's what I get from you and the other guy.
Joh 3:16
οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
For in this manner did God Love the KOSMOS

ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν,
So that His Son the Onlybegotten He gave

ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται,
In order that all believing into Him should not die

ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
But should have Life Everlasting
I agree with this. I answered on what the Reformed Faith position is on this. God is Love. No mention of our plight before a Holy God, though. Why not talk about the wrath of God. It is in Scripture, correct?
With the fall of Adam all creation, the Kosmos, fell...
The fall was by God's Curse...
That Curse was and remains an act of Love...
For by it Adam lived (in deprivation of Life) another 900+ years...
And those born IN Adam (eg into his death) have an opportunity to live repentant lives...

This has always been bothering me since I hear about EOC. Why did God create Adam where He could fall into this curse? Why not create Adam in "Theosis" from the beginning if God is only Love?
So that Adam was not condemned TO death by God...
He committed suicide that very day by his eating of death...
God made sure, by His cursing and expulsion of Adam,
that his death would be overcome through His Son...
Huh? Edwards, brings up an excellent elucidation. You focus solely on death, and negate the fact that Adam sinned in His heart, and acted upon it by eating the forbidden fruit. In the order of nature this sinful inclination is prior to the overt act of sin, yet they are one in that the sin cannot be construed except in terms of both aspects.
His Onlybegotten Son in order that all those believing INTO Him should have everlasting Life...

Joh 17:3
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή,
Now this IS Everlasting Life

ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν
that they should be knowing You the One True God

καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν.
and Whom You sent Jesuis Christ

I am wandering if you are reading what I am writing, or just skimming over it? Because as I said before, I get the feeling you believe that we teach God is not Love.
"Knowing You the One True God" is the Marriage of the Lamb...
The same verb, TO KNOW, means conjugal relations in human marriage...
It is a far, far more intimate and pervasive relationship with God...
Which leaves carnal relations infinitely far beneath it...

Justification does not come through the Righteousness of Christ...
It comes through Christ Himself...
In the Marriage of the Lamb...
A vast and hidden Marriage...

I will take Murray's next line in the next post...

Arsenios
"it comes through Christ Himself..."

1 Cor. 1:30
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
 
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ladodgers6

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If you ask Murray what this looks like in ordinary experience, what would he say?
I do not think you can answer that question apart from a private spiritual event.
What do you mean private spiritual event? Where is the preaching of the Gospel? Preaching Christ and Him crucified, is God's command that we should go out and preach.

16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.

As to the theoretical, what exactly IS the Righteousness of Christ?
Justification means to make someone righteous...
Righteousness is right relationship with God...
Christ is both God and man in one Person with two natures...

Correct on all points. And all of this is given to the ungodly by the Grace of God in Christ, and is received through Faith.

Hence, righteousness cannot come to the justified...
I beg to differ. Paul says in Romans 3

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
And Union with God cannot come to anyone with any impurity in his heart...
We have Union with God in Christ.

1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Perfect purity is only attained in the Baptismal waters...
Everything we have, we have in Christ Alone!
The perfection of the person comes later (normally)...
Christ is our Perfection.
And with that perfecting can come the Gifts of the Holy Spirit...
The Holy Spirit applies and unites us to Christ.
But the Seal of the Anointing abides to the end...
Amen!
Whether he lives a holy or a sinful life after Baptism...

Dead to Sin, Alive to God
Romans 6​
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Baptism is an ontological event, not a social proclamation...

Arsenios

Christian baptism, which has the form of a ceremonial washing (like John's pre-Christian baptism), is a sign from God that signifies inward cleansing and remission of sins (Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:25-27), Spirit-wrought regeneration and new life (Titus 3:5), and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit as God's seal testifying and guaranteeing that one will be kept safe in Christ forever (1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13-14). Baptism carries these meanings because first and fundamentally it signifies union with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-7; Col. 2:11-12); and this union with Christ is the source of every element in our salvation (1 John 5:11-12). Receiving the sign in faith assures the persons baptized that God's gift of new life in Christ is freely given to them. At the same time, it commits them to live henceforth in a new way as committed disciples of Jesus. Baptism signifies a watershed point in a human life because it signifies a new-creational engrafting into Christ's risen life.

J.I. Packer
 
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ladodgers6

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Forgive me for upsetting you...
  • Christ Justifies by uniting Himself to us in the Mystery of the Marriage of the Lamb...
  • We hold this Mystery in a purified conscience
  • We are given this purity in Baptism...
  • We keep it unto maturity by living repentant lives...
Union with Christ begins with God's pretemporal decision to save his people in and through Jesus Christ. This union, further, is based on the redemptive work for his people which Christ did in history. Finally, this union is actually established with God's people after they have been born, continues throughout their lives, and has as its goal their eternal glorification in the life to come. We go on, then, to see union with Christ as having its roots in divine election, its basis in the redemptive work of Christ, and its actual establishment with God's people in time. Union between Christ and his people was planned already in eternity, in the sovereign pretemporal decision whereby God the Father selected us as his own. Christ himself was chosen to be our Savior before the creation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20); Ephesians 1:4 teaches us that when the Father chose Christ, he also chose us...We are initially united with Christ in regeneration." [next] "We appropriate and continue to live out of this union through faith. "Third," We are justified in union with Christ. "Fourth,"We are sanctified through union with Christ. "Fifth,"We persevere in the life of faith in union with Christ. "Finally,"We shall be eternally glorified with Christ." - by Anthony Hoekema

Regeneration, faith, conversion, renewal, and the like, often [in the Bible] do not point to successive steps in the way of salvation but rather summarize in a single word the entire change which takes place in a man." - Herman Bavinck
Paul never speaks of "positing" anything...
Your stuck on posit, and do not see the concept.
It is not Christ's WORKS that justify us...
It is Christ Himself who does so...
Its both
Salvation does not begin with justification...
No it begins with the Grace of God
Christ was obedient unto death on the Cross...
We are Baptized into that Death...
Amen!
You cannot build Theology on Pauline epistles...
I beg to differ.
They are not theological treatises, but pastoral letters...
They are both.
The Gospels will serve you better...
Amen!
Salvation is not about ideas posited...


Arsenios

"God bids us do what we cannot, that we may know what we ought to seek from him." - Augustine

"To will is of nature, but to will aright is of grace." - Augustine

“Truly, then, we are saved by grace alone, without works or other merit.” - Martin Luther

“Thou must save and Thou alone” - Augustus Toplady
"God knoweth we have nothing of ourselves, therefore in the covenant of grace he requireth no more than he giveth, and giveth what he requireth, and accepteth what he giveth." - Richard Sibbes

Grace is not like a box of candy that you can send back if you don't want it. Grace is divine favor, an attitude of God's own heart. We cannot stop him from loving us, if he chooses to do so. Nor can we stop him from giving us blessings of salvation: regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification. His purpose in us will certainly be fulfilled, Phil. 1:6, Eph. 1:11. - John Frame

"If the gospel is grace alone, then every conversion is a miracle." - Tim Keller

"Grace is in no sense contingent upon a condition we meet. If that were the case, it would no longer be grace....It is not by meeting a condition that we receive God's grace. It is by God's grace that we meet His condition. " - John Hendryx

Are these theological posited ideas correct?
 
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Sorry my Dear friend, I was not upset with you. There is no need to be forgiven. I really like discussing theology with you. Because you are zealous about God, and Scripture. I did not want to debate with you. I wanted for us to share what we believe and why we believe it. I wanted to learn from someone who holds to the Eastern Orthodoxy, and avoid third party assessments.

I want to understand Eastern thought, so that I do not misrepresent it or caricature it. We believe that we can move forward with other religions. We can share or discuss without raising our voice or with clinched teeth or with gotcha questions, you know that your opponent can't answer. We can share with Love, not hate in these matters.

The problem I have is not with people disagreeing with Calvinism. But people who caricature what Calvinism teaches & believes. 99% of people who I converse with about Classical Calvinism, do misrepresent Calvinism. They are already blinded by prejudices and third party assessment. Or by googling the 5 points of Calvinism. Calvinism is not the 5 points. There is so much more to it. BTW we prefer Doctrines of Grace, and so would Calvin himself.

It was nicknamed "Calvinism", by the opponents of Calvin who He was up against in Geneva. Calvin would have changed it immediately if he was still alive.

So dear friend, I hope we can continue in our sharing and love towards each other. Here's a little of what we believe and why we believe it.

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)

In Christ Our Covenantal King
 
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ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
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I have a request and seek clarification. I hope you will accept my request and help me understand.

What is "THEOSIS"?

Why wasn't Adam created in "THEOSIS" from the beginning?
 
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seashale76

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Acts 2:36-41
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


ETA: Then there are also tons of scriptures about enduring to the end. :)
 
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