Salvation?

[Arsenios]

Why do I get the feeling that you guys think, that we do not believe God loves His people?

Because you are a sensitive person who feels much misunderstood...

This couldn't be further from the truth. I always scratch my head when I read or hear people say that there is no condemnation or wrath of God. And this is just plain wrong, sorry Arsenios. Because God is Love, does not mean He does not demand(s) Perfect Holiness from us. Because God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Over and over God punished the wicked for sin.

God's love DEMANDS PERFECT HOLINESS FROM US!!! ?????

IF you do not GIVE ME PERFECT HOLINESS, I will punish you and condemn you in MY WRATH....

Kinda sounds like "Love me or I will beat you to death!"

Do you guys even believe in being Morally good?

Is the ex-Pope Polish?

If so why?

Well, it is, after all, a START!

Why is repentance SO important to the east?

Because Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil...

Our job is to repent from the evil and to embrace the Good...

If there is no Law to adhere too, according to the East.

Doing God's will is the whole of the Law...

Then how do people repent?

By turning away from evils and embracing what is Good...

How do they know what to turn from?

It is not rocket science...

If the Law is not a requirement to follow for Holy Living. Then how do people know how to live?

Mat 16:24 "If anyone is willing after me to come, let him first deny himself, then take up his own cross, and follow Me.

In order to DO God's will, we have to kill our own self-will, and we have to do so willingly...
We have to drive a wedge between self and self...

Condemnation is real, real serious, Arsenios. So serious that it take God to come in Christ to save us from it. What was Christ here to do? Well, Christ says in John 6,

John 6:38 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Which is what, Arsenios?

It started with John the Baptist preaching repentance and baptism...
Denial of self-will...
Doing of God's will...

Adam died the day he ate of the poison-Fruit...
One is Holy...
One is Lord...
Jesus Christ...

God does not demand that you and I be perfect-holy... He asks us to live repentent lives in the Body of Christ Who IS perfectly Holy...

Remember that Promise He made to Adam & Eve, and Abraham too? To send a Promised Seed, to save His people from their sins, death and condemnation.

Their condemnation is that they are born into Adam's death, and upon this birth into death all have sinned... The Promise is Life Eternal, wherein we overcome our sin(s) by repentance and attain Life in Christ...

Why is everyone under the curse of the Law?

Only the Jews are under the Law...

Why did Christ have to redeem us from the curse of the Law?

He only came for the Jews, until their final rejection of Him...

If there is no condemnation?

Death is the condemnation...

What does curse mean here?

That we are living dead lives...

Clearly it means being obedient or disobedient. But we will always be disobedient, that is why Christ had too redeem us from the curse of the Law.

He came to give us Life:

Joh 11:26 And whosoever is living and believing in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/online-bible/niv/matthew/5/

Matthew 5:17 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Once again Christ says He came to FULFILL the Law? Why? Think about this before you respond. Christ could have just came and died to redeem us. But He came to FULFILL what the first Adam transgressed. And Romans 5 is explicit in regards to this. God is Love, and is why He came in Christ knowing what needed to be done for the ungodly. God came in the flesh, born under the Law; to fulfill it. And to kill sin in the flesh. Why did Christ have to kill sin in the flesh?

He did not kill sin in the flesh... He simply did not sin...
It is by His Holy Resurrection that he trampled down Death by His Own Death...
We who are not yet perfected in the faith still sin in the flesh...

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Why did God made Him sin on our behalf? This is a crucial question and I hope you do not avoid it. Because this clearly demonstrates God's love for us. So I do not disagree with you that God is Love. But God is White Hot Holiness. God hates sin. God punishes sin. God condemns sin. And the Reformed Faith believes & teaches that God still Loves us while we are still sinners.

Try the KJV translation:

2Co 5:21
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God IN Him.

This simply means that He, without sin, voluntarily took upon himself ALL human sin that we who are Baptized INTO Him, which means are baptized into His Death on the Cross, should have ALL our sins forgiven as we enter into the Mystery of that Death to this life, and receive the Life of Christ...

So is misconception that we do not believe God is Love. Is a false witness against us. Because we do believe God is Love. God will not allow evil to go unpunished. That is contrary to His nature.

Then why do you insist that God's Love DEMANDS perfect holiness from us which we do not have???

I do not see you guys talking about God's Law,

We can access self denial and obedience to others more readily that GOD's LAW...

However, The Law of God is a thick Orthodox book's title...

or being Holy as our Father in heaven is Perfect.

Holiness is God's...

I get the feeling you guys downplay sin & condemnation.

We try to up-play repentance from sin and reliance on God's Great Mercy...

Why not talk about the wrath of God. It is in Scripture, correct?

Of course it is in Scripture - It is a warning to the sons of disobedience... But this language is by way of condescension to our fallen condition, where fear of eternal punishment might avail repentance... Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, remember? But also remember this corollary: Fear of God is not the perfecting of wisdom...

This has always been bothering me since I hear about EOC. Why did God create Adam where He could fall into this curse? Why not create Adam in "Theosis" from the beginning if God is only Love?

I tried to take you there already - We are, in part, God's ontological reply to the defection of Satan and his minions... Our lives are intended to shame demons...

Huh? Edwards, brings up an excellent elucidation. You focus solely on death, and negate the fact that Adam sinned in His heart, and acted upon it by eating the forbidden fruit. In the order of nature this sinful inclination is prior to the overt act of sin, yet they are one in that the sin cannot be construed except in terms of both aspects.

You are calling the death of Adam something that God DID TO Adam - Adam wrongly ate and God KILLED him... In fact, God warned Adam that he would DIE the very DAY he ate that fruit... Adam disbelieved God, ate the fruit, and died that very day... This is the third time I have written this... We who are born in Adam are born in the death that he died that day...

I am wandering if you are reading what I am writing, or just skimming over it? Because as I said before, I get the feeling you believe that we teach God is not Love.

"it comes through Christ Himself..."

1 Cor. 1:30
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

You do write that the Love of God DEMANDS PERFECT HOLINESS from us...

Love is patient,
and is kind;
Love does not envy;
Love does not boast,
is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly,
seeketh not her own,
is not easily provoked,
thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity,
but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things,
believeth all things,
hopeth all things,
endureth all things.
Love never fails:

Demons, you see, DEMAND ALL THINGS!
Arrogant little things that they are...

God is not a judgemental demander and punisher...

If we sin, He will, in this life, give us as we do...
If we forsake Him, we will find ourselves without Him...
If we seek Him, we will find Him...
Love unfreely given is the 'love' of a lesser god...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I have a request and seek clarification. I hope you will accept my request and help me understand.

What is "THEOSIS"?

Why wasn't Adam created in "THEOSIS" from the beginning?

Theosis is the Marriage of the Lamb - Union with God...

It is the divinization of man in Christ...

It is the walk of the Holy Ones in the Power of God on earth...

It is Salvation...

Adam was created immature and placed in the Garden...
I think God had a purpose in this with Satan...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What is "THEOSIS"?

Paul knew theosis, but spoke of it in the third person... The Old Prophets knew it, and spoke of God... Ananias, the one who baptized Paul and GAVE him the Holy Spirit, knew it. Here is ONE way that it CAN be evidenced:
___________________________________________________________
Act 9:10-18
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias;
and to him said the Lord in a vision,
"Ananias".
And he said,
Behold, "I am here, Lord".
And the Lord said unto him,
"Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire
in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he is praying, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight."
Then Ananias answered,
"Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name."
But the Lord said unto him,
"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said,
"Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.________________________

Union with God, you see, is profoundly intimate and personal...

The Marriage of the Lamb.

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Hence, righteousness cannot come to the justified...

I beg to differ.

To justify IS to make righteous...
Justification IS Rectification...
To justify is to MAKE RIGHT...

If someone IS justified, they ALREADYARE RIGHTeous...

Ontologically right, and NOT merely "declaratively" pronounced not guilty/right...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

Paul knew theosis, but spoke of it in the third person... The Old Prophets knew it, and spoke of God... Ananias, the one who baptized Paul and GAVE him the Holy Spirit, knew it. Here is ONE way that it CAN be evidenced:
___________________________________________________________
Act 9:10-18
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias;
and to him said the Lord in a vision,
"Ananias".
And he said,
Behold, "I am here, Lord".
And the Lord said unto him,
"Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire
in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he is praying, And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight."
Then Ananias answered,
"Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name."
But the Lord said unto him,
"Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said,
"Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.________________________

Union with God, you see, is profoundly intimate and personal...

The Marriage of the Lamb.

Arsenios

Okay, I asked what is "THEOSIS"? Other people and resources that I have read. Say that "THEOSIS" is a energy of God. Like rays of the sun, but not the sun. A god nature if you will, but not God himself. When I googled Theosis, this is what I found.

Theosis
In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to Eastern Orthodox teaching, theosis is very much the purpose of human life.

 

[ladodgers6]

To justify IS to make righteous...
Justification IS Rectification...
To justify is to MAKE RIGHT...

If someone IS justified, they ALREADY ARE RIGHTeous...

Ontologically right, and NOT merely "declaratively" pronounced not guilty/right...

Arsenios

Exactly this, "If someone IS justified, they ALREADY ARE RIGHTeous..."

If someone transgressed, they are already condemned. So Paul will answer this.

18Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[Arsenios]

"If someone IS justified, they ALREADY ARE RIGHTeous..."

If someone transgressed, they are already condemned.

So Paul will answer this.
18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness is leading to Justification and Life for all men.

So it looks like Paul answered YOU, not me...

It is not already, as you insist, but is instead is leading to, and did lead to...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Okay, I asked what is "THEOSIS"? Other people and resources that I have read. Say that "THEOSIS" is a energy of God. Like rays of the sun, but not the sun. A god nature if you will, but not God himself. When I googled Theosis, this is what I found.

Theosis
In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to Eastern Orthodox teaching, theosis is very much the purpose of human life.

People who give definitions of theosis have no idea what it is...
It is not a process...
It is the Grace of God working in a Divinized human being on earth...

Peter's SHADOW healed the sick...

Christ became man that man should become divinized...
The divinization of man is by the Grace of God...
It cannot be earned, but it can be sought...

Rom 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow,
he also did foreordain to be conformed to the Image of his Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many Brethren.
Moreover whom he did Foreordain, these He also Called:
and whom He called, these He also justified:
and whom He Justified, these He also Glorified.

The Glorification of the foreordained is Theosis...
It is the ontological meaning of Sanctification...

For by Grace are you saved through the Faith (of christ)...
And this (Salvation is) not of yourselves...
Of God (is) the Gift...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Why wasn't Adam created in "THEOSIS" from the beginning?

What do you think it was that he lost?
He was naked and ashamed and hiding from God...
He lost the Garment of Righteousness...
He was given the garment of sensuous skin...

Holy Tradition has Adam, upon his expulsion from the Garden, weeping at its gates for the rest of his "life"...
Because He KNEW what he had thrown away...
Theosis is not a guarantee in this life...
It is a Gift...
It too can be squandered...
But not easily...
And no one can take it from us, as Paul reports...

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

So it looks like Paul answered YOU, not me...

It is not already, as you insist, but is instead is leading to, and did lead to...

Arsenios

Yes because of and through ONE MAN; God himself, Jesus Christ!

 

[ladodgers6]

People who give definitions of theosis have no idea what it is...
It is not a process...
It is the Grace of God working in a Divinized human being on earth...

"Divinized human being on earth...." Can you explain this in more detail?

Christ became man that man should become divinized...
The divinization of man is by the Grace of God...
It cannot be earned, but it can be sought...

This other EOC member who has written a book about the religion EOC. Said that God became man so that man can become God.

Rom 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow,
he also did foreordain to be conformed to the Image of his Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many Brethren.
Moreover whom he did Foreordain, these He also Called:
and whom He called, these He also justified:
and whom He Justified, these He also Glorified.

The Glorification of the foreordained is Theosis...
It is the ontological meaning of Sanctification...

I am so glad to use these passages.

The key to understanding these passages, is this. "he also did foreordain to be conformed to the Image of his Son,....Moreover whom he did Foreordain

This is God's doing not ours! Which ties to our justification! "these He also justified.." In His Son; Christ Jesus. The One Man of the One Act of Righteousness!

For by Grace are you saved through the Faith (of christ)...
And this (Salvation is) not of yourselves...
Of God (is) the Gift...

Arsenios

Amen my brother. I do have a question about, what do you mean by the Faith of Christ?

 

[ladodgers6]

What do you think it was that he lost?

Why can you guys just answer the question? Did Adam lose his "THEOSIS"?

Theosis is not a guarantee in this life...

Okay so Adam lost his "Theosis". So many questions are popping in my head right now. Let me ponder upon this a bit, before I respond.

It is a Gift...
It too can be squandered...
But not easily...
And no one can take it from us, as Paul reports...

Arsenios

I am a lost for words.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes because of and through ONE MAN; God himself, Jesus Christ!

Actually, it is IN that one Man, Jesus Christ, that all are being led TO Salvation...
This happens, in the Ekonomia (household) of Christ THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples... It is on the BASIS of the praxis [the actual DOING of that Faith] that Christ awards the Gift of Grace that is Himself in Union with the one practicing the Faith...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"Divinized human being on earth...." Can you explain this in more detail?

The miracle working - eg the God-bearing - Saints

This other EOC member who has written a book about the religion EOC.

When EOC praxis becomes religion, it is on the ropes!

What book did he write?

Said that God became man so that man can become God.

You may be missing his thrust... Man does not become God, but can become "godded", or a god, but this only after a manner of speaking, as Moses was a god to Pharoah... Man does not become God... He simply acquires God's Wealth by Grace - He enters into the Marriage of the Lamb of God, where he finds Union with God, and in the perfecting of this Way of Life, he comes to a condition that it is no longer the man, but Christ IN the man, Who is speaking and acting...

I am so glad to use these passages.

They are some of my favorite words from Scripture when discussing the Faith of Christ with those following the faith of Calvin...

The key to understanding these passages, is this. "he also did foreordain to be conformed to the Image of his Son,....Moreover whom he did

Foreordain

The key is the word prior to this one, which is fore-KNEW... God knows the end from the beginning, and vice versa... So that He KNOWS what we will say and do BEFORE we say or do it... Our freedom to will Good and evil in every nanosecond of our whole lives is absolute in this fallen condition, and all our doings are completely fore-known to God... On this basis, He fore-ordains and provides what is needed for each of us according to His desire that ALL be saved, and come to the Knowledge of the Truth...

This is God's doing not ours!

Who else's doing even CAN it be???

Which ties to our justification! "these He also justified.."

You do not yet understand ontology and asking...
Juridical asking is: "Lord save me!"
Ontological asking is: Ongoing repentance...

God hears both, and for some, juridical and ontological are the same... [eg for Atheists, as an eample...]
Yet the first Word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is: "REPENT!"

I do have a question about, what do you mean by the Faith of Christ?

It is that Faith which Christ discipled to His Disciples...
It is refered to in Matthew where Christ is recorded as saying:

Go therefore and disciple ALL the Nations,
Teaching the to carefully be observing ALL that I have commanded you (to be doing)
BAPTIZING them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

THAT is the FAITH of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Why can you guys just answer the question? Did Adam lose his "THEOSIS"?
Okay so Adam lost his "Theosis". So many questions are popping in my head right now. Let me ponder upon this a bit, before I respond.
I am a lost (at a loss?) for words.

We do not name a Saint while he is still alive on earth for this very reason...
Vainglory is a powerful demonic trap for those walking in Apostolic Gifts...
IN THIS LIFE (only) we cannot ascend so high that we cannot fall...
Lucifer was the greatest of the Angels...
Christ confirms this when He instructs:
Mat 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that perseveres to the end shall be saved.

If, as you said, you are at a loss for words, I thank God...
For THAT, you see, is a true beginning...
Theosis is a word for that which is far, far beyond words...
It is the Home of the Prophets...
It is the phronema that wrote the Bible...
We disciple it in the Body of Christ...
We do not disciple it in words...
Not even the word Theosis...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

One other thing I should add is that those who have not experienced Theosis cannot possibly know it, and no definition can possibly give them what they seek in their curiosity about it. It is normally known ABOUT in the Lives of the Saints, or Biblically in the Acts of the Apostles... These holy men and women KNOW Theosis, and the rest of us poor slobs merely know ABOUT Theosis THROUGH their holy lives and deeds and words...

So that having a bunch of juridical words about theosis will avail naught...
The praxis of the discipled Faith of Christ will avail much...

Good Morning!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Believers come into the possession of the righteousness of Christ in justification.

Tell me, LA, are YOU in POSSESSION of the Righteousness of Christ?
I sure am not... All I am in possession of is my own weaknesses...

It would be contradictory of Paul's doctrine of justification to suppose that the righteousness and obedience of Christ becomes our's unto justification because holiness is conveyed to us from Christ or that the righteousness of Christ is mediated to us through the holiness generated in us by regeneration.

Good - We finally agree on at least the issue of mediation... And especially whatever might be some mediation afforded by regenerational holiness might be...

The one ground upon which the imputation of the righteousness of Christ becomes ours is the 'UNION' with Christ. In other words, the justified person is constituted righteous by the obedience of Christ because of the solidarity established between Christ and the justified person.

Solidarity again rears its ugly head... So what this is saying clearly is that Christ EARNED our Justificaton by His being OBEDIENT to the Father...

The Truth is that Christ's obedience was for OUR sake in order that we should FOLLOW Him in obedience... His prayers were for US an example for us to do as well... Everything Christ DID was for you and I to follow Him... He never had to EARN anything from God for us... That idea is nuts...

And then you have the re-uglification of the "POSITED SOLIDITY" that your author POSITS, but not all that solidly - Indeed it is posited on quicksand...

Listen, my friend - To POSIT means to REGARD as true...

You would do well to hang up on this falsehood with me and spit it out as I do...

The solidarity constitutes the bond by which the righteousness of Christ becomes that of the believer. Once the solidarity is posited there is no other mediating factor that could be conceived of as necessary to the conjunction of the righteousness of Christ and the righteousness of the believer. This is to say that the conjunction is immediate. If the case is thus on that side of the analogy which pertains to justification, we should expect the modus operandi to be the same in connection with condemnation. To put the argument in the order underlying the parallelism, immediate imputation in the case of Adam's sin provides the parallel by which to illustrate the doctrine of justification and is thus eminently germane to the governing thesis of the apostle in this part of the epistle.

John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin, page 70.

 

[ladodgers6]

Actually, it is IN that one Man, Jesus Christ, that all are being led TO Salvation...
This happens, in the Ekonomia (household) of Christ THROUGH the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples... It is on the BASIS of the praxis [the actual DOING of that Faith] that Christ awards the Gift of Grace that is Himself in Union with the one practicing the Faith...

Arsenios

No Sir, HE IS OUR SALVATION!

 

[Arsenios]

HE IS OUR SALVATION!

Good!

We agree...

A

 

[ladodgers6]

Good!

We agree...

A

Amen my brother. Here's something I want to share with you.

Conversion is the foundational experience of Christian life. It involves the initiative of God's gracious effectual action which provokes a two - sided response. It primarily involves 1) the sovereign grace of God working faith in sinners toward Jesus Christ... and 2) God's work in the granting of repentance from all known sin and our renouncing of all self-righteousness. This will always include an acknowledgment of woefully having fallen short of God's glory and holiness and confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the all-sufficient Savior and LORD, the sole means by whom one's sin can be atoned for and therefore the only way of salvation (John 14:6).

Heidelberg Catechism in Lord's Day 33 says Conversion is not only related to a one-time event when we believe but is also "a daily killing of the old man." That is, conversion is a deep, daily sorrow for sin before the cross of Jesus Christ. Yet it also involves a quickening of the new man in us as we look to Him. It is where one brings the burden of his sins to Calvary. A daily battle, a daily fleeing from sin, a daily hastening to the cross with an increasingly urgent longing to leave this life of sin which is nothing but a continual death, in order to be at last in the everlasting perfection of the resurrection body when heaven and earth are one - that is conversion. - Coram Deo

But even this is God's doing in Christ. We are new creations in Christ, so that we can live to God, not to earn Salvation, but because we are 'ALREADY' saved!