On Free Will

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Rescued One

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God can use unregenerate people for his purposes and He can limit or thwart their evil intent. Suppose someone wants to kill you but God makes a way for your escape. He can also cause an unregenerate person to rescue you from a burning building. He also saves the lives of children who never become Christians. The "apparent good deed" done by that person who rescues you doesn't save him.
 
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TheSeabass

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God called first, but Abraham still exercised free will in response to God's call.
God foreknew that Abraham and his descendants would obey enough so that "the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" Genesis 18:19. God did not arbitrarily choose Abraham leaving things to chance that Abraham might or might not obey.

God foreknew how Saul would react on the road to Damascus. Saul could have chosen to disobey the heavenly voice (Acts 26:19) but instead he freely chose to obey as God foreknew he would.

Therefore God does not have to violate man's free will in 'calling' men but God uses His foreknowledge in knowing what free will choices men will make when put in a particular circumstance and God uses those free will choices to further His own will.
 
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TheSeabass

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None of the forgoing proves that men can choose on their own without God giving them the ability, which we attribute to Grace. Of course it does! No one is saying that God chooses sinners to be saved in their sins. He chooses (if that is what he does) people to receive saving Faith, thus appropriating what Christ did for them in sacrificing himself as a propitiation for sin.


There is nothing anywhere in the bible that says man is unable to understand and choose without God first acting upon him miraculously. No point in grace teaching if it cannot be understood. Nor does the bible teach that God puts Himself in the position of choosing winners and losers. Instead it is God's will that salvations comes through preaching (1 Corinthians 1:21) where men are taught, hear and learn the word and then of his own free will choses to come to Christ John 6:45.
 
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PeaceB

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I agree that God enlightens the mind but that enlightenment comes when man hear/reads God's word (Romans 10:17; Ephesians 3:4) and not by God arbitrarily selecting certain men to 'regenerate' and 'enlighten' separate and apart from the word.

You cite Tts 2 where is says grace...teaches. Therefore Christianity is a 'taught' religion. John 6:45 God draws men when men have been 'taught', 'heard' and 'learn' then man of his own free will comes to Christ. Grace therefore is not given randomly to some apart from the word making God a respecter of persons and culpable for the lost. If God is to arbitrarily select certain men, miraculously enlighten their minds apart from the word then the great commission of Christ serves no purpose.
Catholics do not hold to the Calvinist (and seemingly Lutheran) view of grace/predestination, if that is the impression you have.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Actual Grace

The universality of actual grace
The universality of grace does not conflict with its gratuity, if God, in virtue of his will to save all men, distributes with sovereign liberty his graces to all adults without exception. But if the universality of grace is only a result of the Divine will to save all mankind, we must first turn our attention to the latter as the basis of the former.

God's will to save all men
By the "will to save" (voluntas Dei salvifica) theologians understand the earnest and sincere will of God to free all men from sin and lead them to supernatural happiness. As this will refers to human nature as such, it is a merciful will, also called "first" or "antecedent will" (voluntas prima sive antecedens). It is not absolute, but conditional, inasmuch as no one is saved if he does not will it or does not comply with the conditions laid down by God for salvation. The "second" or "consequent will" (voluntas secunda sive consequens), on the contrary, can only be absolute, i.e. a will of justice, as God must simply reward or punish according as one has deserved by his works heaven or hell. We consider here solely the "antecedent will" to save; regarding the will of justice see PREDESTINATION.

Against the error of the Calvinists and Jansenists the ecclesiastical teaching authority (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, can. xvii; Prop. v Jansenii damn., in Denzinger, n. 827, 1096) proclaimed in the first place the doctrine that God seriously wills the salvation not of the predestined only, but also of other men.

. . .

The universality of grace
The universality of grace is a necessary consequence of the will to save all men. For adults this will transforms itself into the concrete Divine will to distribute "sufficient" graces; it evidently involves no obligation on God to bestow only "efficacious" graces. If it can be established, therefore, that God grants to the three classes of the just, sinners, and infidels truly sufficient graces for their eternal salvation, the proof of the universality of grace will have been furnished. Without prejudice to this universality, God may either await the moment of its actual necessity before bestowing grace, or He may, even in time of need (e.g. in vehement temptation), grant immediately only the grace of prayer (gratia orationis sive remote sufficiens). But in the latter case he must be ever ready to confer immediate grace for action (gr. operationis s. proxime sufficiens), if the adult has made a faithful use of the grace of prayer.

So far as the category of the just is concerned, the heretical proposition of Jansen, that "the observance of some commandments of God is impossible to the just for want of grace" (see Denzinger, n. 1092), had already been exploded by the anathema of the Council of Trent (see Council of Trent, Sess. VI, can. xviii). In fact Holy Writ teaches concerning the just, that the yoke of Jesus is sweet, and His burden light (Matthew 11:30), that the commandments of God are not heavy (I John, v, 3), that "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13). These statements warrant not only the full possibility of the observance of the Divine commandments and the triumph over vehement temptation;, they virtually express simultaneously the concession of the necessary grace without which all these salutary acts are known to be absolutely impossible. It is true that in the polemical writings of some Fathers of the Church against the Pelagians and Semipelagians we read the proposition: "The grace of God is not granted to all." But a closer examination of the passages immediately reveals the fact that they speak of efficacious, not of sufficient, grace.

. . .

The third and last question arises: Is the grace of God also conceded to the heathen? The Divine readiness to grant assistance also to the heathen (see Denzinger, n. 1295, 1379) is a certain truth confirmed by the Church against the Jansenists Arnauld and Quesnel. To question it is to deny the above-demonstrated intention of God to save all men; for the overwhelming majority of mankind would fall outside its range. The Apostle of the Gentiles, Paul (Rom., ii, 6 sqq.), lays stress on God's impartiality towards Jews and Greeks, without "respect of persons", on the Day of Judgment, when he will reward also the Greek "that worketh good" with eternal life. The Fathers of the Church, as Clement of Rome (I ep. ad Cor. vii), Clement of Alexandria (Cohort. ad gent., 9), and Chrysostom (Hom. viii in John, n. 1), do not doubt the dispensation of sufficient graces to the nations "that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death". Orosius (De arbitr. libert., n. 19), a disciple of St. Augustine, proceeds so far in his optimism as to believe in this distribution of grace "quotidie per tempora, per dies, per momenta, per atoma et cunctis et singulis" (daily through the seasons, through the days, through the moments, through the smallest possible divisions of time, and to all men and every man). But the clearer the fact, the more obscure the manner. In what way, one instinctively asks, did God provide for the salvation of the heathen? Theologians to-day generally give the following presentation of the process: It is presupposed that, according to Hebr., xi, 6, the two dogmas of the existence of God and of future retribution must be, in all instances, believed not only, by necessity of means (necessitate medii), but also with explicit faith (fide explicita) before the process of justification can be initiated. As a consequence, God will not refrain in extraordinary cases from miraculous intervention in order to save a noble-minded heathen who conscientiously observes the natural moral law. He may either, in a miraculous manner, depute a missionary to him (Acts 1:1 sqq.), or teach him the revealed truth through an angel (Cardinal Toletus), or he may come to his assistance by an interior private revelation. It is clear, nevertheless, that these different ways cannot be considered as everyday ordinary means. For the multitude of heathen this assistance must be found in a universal means of salvation equally independent of wonderful events and of the preaching of Christian missionaries. Some modern theologians discover it in the circumstance that the two dogmas mentioned above were already contained in the primitive supernatural revelation made in Paradise for all mankind. These truths were subsequently spread over the whole world, survive, as a meagre remnant, in the traditions of the pagan nations, and are orally transmitted from generation to generation as supernatural truths of salvation. The knowableness of these dogmas by unaided reason does not constitute an objection, for they are simultaneously natural and revealed truths. Once the condition of external preaching (cf. Rom., x, 17: "fides ex auditu") has thus been fulfilled, it only remains for God to hasten to man's assistance with his supernatural illuminating and strengthening grace and to initiate with the faith in God and retribution (which implicitly includes all else necessary for salvation) the process of justification. In this manner the attainment of the state of grace and of eternal glory becomes possible for the heathen who faithfully co-operates with the grace of vocation. However all this may be, one thing is certain: every heathen who incurs eternal damnation will be forced on the last day to the honest confession: "It is not for want of grace, but through my own fault that I am lost."
 
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Albion

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There is nothing anywhere in the bible that says man is unable to understand and choose without God first acting upon him miraculously.
Do you imagine, then, that man from birth does know all about God, his nature and his doings, and without any assistance?

I don't. Sorry, no.
 
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TheSeabass

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Catholics do not hold to the Calvinist (and seemingly Lutheran) view of grace/predestination, if that is the impression you have.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Actual Grace

The universality of actual grace
The universality of grace does not conflict with its gratuity, if God, in virtue of his will to save all men, distributes with sovereign liberty his graces to all adults without exception. But if the universality of grace is only a result of the Divine will to save all mankind, we must first turn our attention to the latter as the basis of the former.

God's will to save all men
By the "will to save" (voluntas Dei salvifica) theologians understand the earnest and sincere will of God to free all men from sin and lead them to supernatural happiness. As this will refers to human nature as such, it is a merciful will, also called "first" or "antecedent will" (voluntas prima sive antecedens). It is not absolute, but conditional, inasmuch as no one is saved if he does not will it or does not comply with the conditions laid down by God for salvation. The "second" or "consequent will" (voluntas secunda sive consequens), on the contrary, can only be absolute, i.e. a will of justice, as God must simply reward or punish according as one has deserved by his works heaven or hell. We consider here solely the "antecedent will" to save; regarding the will of justice see PREDESTINATION.

Against the error of the Calvinists and Jansenists the ecclesiastical teaching authority (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. VI, can. xvii; Prop. v Jansenii damn., in Denzinger, n. 827, 1096) proclaimed in the first place the doctrine that God seriously wills the salvation not of the predestined only, but also of other men.

. . .

The universality of grace
The universality of grace is a necessary consequence of the will to save all men. For adults this will transforms itself into the concrete Divine will to distribute "sufficient" graces; it evidently involves no obligation on God to bestow only "efficacious" graces. If it can be established, therefore, that God grants to the three classes of the just, sinners, and infidels truly sufficient graces for their eternal salvation, the proof of the universality of grace will have been furnished. Without prejudice to this universality, God may either await the moment of its actual necessity before bestowing grace, or He may, even in time of need (e.g. in vehement temptation), grant immediately only the grace of prayer (gratia orationis sive remote sufficiens). But in the latter case he must be ever ready to confer immediate grace for action (gr. operationis s. proxime sufficiens), if the adult has made a faithful use of the grace of prayer.

So far as the category of the just is concerned, the heretical proposition of Jansen, that "the observance of some commandments of God is impossible to the just for want of grace" (see Denzinger, n. 1092), had already been exploded by the anathema of the Council of Trent (see Council of Trent, Sess. VI, can. xviii). In fact Holy Writ teaches concerning the just, that the yoke of Jesus is sweet, and His burden light (Matthew 11:30), that the commandments of God are not heavy (I John, v, 3), that "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13). These statements warrant not only the full possibility of the observance of the Divine commandments and the triumph over vehement temptation;, they virtually express simultaneously the concession of the necessary grace without which all these salutary acts are known to be absolutely impossible. It is true that in the polemical writings of some Fathers of the Church against the Pelagians and Semipelagians we read the proposition: "The grace of God is not granted to all." But a closer examination of the passages immediately reveals the fact that they speak of efficacious, not of sufficient, grace.

. . .

The third and last question arises: Is the grace of God also conceded to the heathen? The Divine readiness to grant assistance also to the heathen (see Denzinger, n. 1295, 1379) is a certain truth confirmed by the Church against the Jansenists Arnauld and Quesnel. To question it is to deny the above-demonstrated intention of God to save all men; for the overwhelming majority of mankind would fall outside its range. The Apostle of the Gentiles, Paul (Rom., ii, 6 sqq.), lays stress on God's impartiality towards Jews and Greeks, without "respect of persons", on the Day of Judgment, when he will reward also the Greek "that worketh good" with eternal life. The Fathers of the Church, as Clement of Rome (I ep. ad Cor. vii), Clement of Alexandria (Cohort. ad gent., 9), and Chrysostom (Hom. viii in John, n. 1), do not doubt the dispensation of sufficient graces to the nations "that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death". Orosius (De arbitr. libert., n. 19), a disciple of St. Augustine, proceeds so far in his optimism as to believe in this distribution of grace "quotidie per tempora, per dies, per momenta, per atoma et cunctis et singulis" (daily through the seasons, through the days, through the moments, through the smallest possible divisions of time, and to all men and every man). But the clearer the fact, the more obscure the manner. In what way, one instinctively asks, did God provide for the salvation of the heathen? Theologians to-day generally give the following presentation of the process: It is presupposed that, according to Hebr., xi, 6, the two dogmas of the existence of God and of future retribution must be, in all instances, believed not only, by necessity of means (necessitate medii), but also with explicit faith (fide explicita) before the process of justification can be initiated. As a consequence, God will not refrain in extraordinary cases from miraculous intervention in order to save a noble-minded heathen who conscientiously observes the natural moral law. He may either, in a miraculous manner, depute a missionary to him (Acts 1:1 sqq.), or teach him the revealed truth through an angel (Cardinal Toletus), or he may come to his assistance by an interior private revelation. It is clear, nevertheless, that these different ways cannot be considered as everyday ordinary means. For the multitude of heathen this assistance must be found in a universal means of salvation equally independent of wonderful events and of the preaching of Christian missionaries. Some modern theologians discover it in the circumstance that the two dogmas mentioned above were already contained in the primitive supernatural revelation made in Paradise for all mankind. These truths were subsequently spread over the whole world, survive, as a meagre remnant, in the traditions of the pagan nations, and are orally transmitted from generation to generation as supernatural truths of salvation. The knowableness of these dogmas by unaided reason does not constitute an objection, for they are simultaneously natural and revealed truths. Once the condition of external preaching (cf. Rom., x, 17: "fides ex auditu") has thus been fulfilled, it only remains for God to hasten to man's assistance with his supernatural illuminating and strengthening grace and to initiate with the faith in God and retribution (which implicitly includes all else necessary for salvation) the process of justification. In this manner the attainment of the state of grace and of eternal glory becomes possible for the heathen who faithfully co-operates with the grace of vocation. However all this may be, one thing is certain: every heathen who incurs eternal damnation will be forced on the last day to the honest confession: "It is not for want of grace, but through my own fault that I am lost."
You posted earlier "It is a supernatural help of God that enlightens our mind and strengthens our will to do good and avoid evil."

My point was that God does NOT supernaturally enlighten men's minds. God gave man His written word where man can read and understand (be enlightened), Ephesians 3:3-4. Note that Paul did NOT say to these Ephesians 'that when ye read ye may understand only with supernatural help from the Holy Spirit.' Hence grace teaches man and man has the ability to understand with no supernatural help from God.
 
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TheSeabass

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Do you imagine, then, that man from birth does know all about God, his nature and his doings, and without any assistance?

I don't. Sorry, no.
No, as I posted earlier Christianity is a "taught" religion (grace teaches - Titus 2). Man is taught by the word therefore no supernatural assistance is needed nor warranted apart from the word.
 
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PeaceB

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You posted earlier "It is a supernatural help of God that enlightens our mind and strengthens our will to do good and avoid evil."

My point was that God does NOT supernaturally enlighten men's minds. God gave man His written word where man can read and understand (be enlightened), Ephesians 3:3-4. Note that Paul did NOT say to these Ephesians 'that when ye read ye may understand only with supernatural help from the Holy Spirit.' Hence grace teaches man and man has the ability to understand with no supernatural help from God.
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who area also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us. 9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to united all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As you can see, St. Paul is writing this letter to believers, and those who have been blessed "with every spiritual blessing" and those whom God has "made known . . . all his wisdom and insight the mystery of his will." The fact that Paul does not mention supernatural help in Chapter 3 does not lead to the conclusion that such help is unnecessary, because it is clear from Chapter 1 that they have already received supernatural help. Nor would Paul's silence have implied an exclusion of supernatural help, if he had written to non-believers instead.

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.
The underlined portion above, from the Ephesians 1, also refutes your theory. Paul continues to pray that God gives them a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, and that will result in the eyes of their hearts being enlightened. It is not something that they do via their own power, but is given to them from God.
 
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PeaceB

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Emmy

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Dear Albion. God has given us free will, we can say Yes, or No, to God: s Will. But Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself, treat all you know and all you meet, treat them as you would love to be treated, always with love and kindness. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters.
The Bible tells us: ask and you shall receive, we give up our unkind and selfish wishes and wants, and treat all around us as we would love to be treated. God sees our loving and caring, and God will BLESS us. Let us all change to be God`s loving men and women, then follow Jesus back to God, our Heavenly Father. Jesus died that we might live, and Jesus is the Way back to God. Matthew 7: 7-10: I say this with love, Albion. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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JamesFW

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Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
 
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Aseyesee

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Nonbelievers do not have Godly type Love and without Godly type Love can do nothing of spiritual value: 1 Cor. 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Paul said faith works by love which is ultimately the very person of God, but this also makes the above redundant unless the all mysteries, and other things spoken of here are earthly realties as James had said about wisdom.

Paul also said God gave every man the measure of faith.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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Just some points to put in the pot, I am not able to catch up with the whole conversation, so some of this might be repeating what others have said.

Well for one thing, we are not God, and neither do we have foreknowledge, so I believe we cannot really begin to understand what it is like to be God, to be in His shoes. The bible itself says we cannot fathom Him......it is for us to worship Him, not try to contain Him.

BUT we can BELIEVE Him.........., and our understanding can grow and increase.........it doesn't mean we can ever plumb His depths though.

Without faith it is impossible to please God........and faith is not of ourselves.

No one comes to Christ lest the Father draws them.........that said, our part is to accept what the Father is doing and not harden our hearts against it.

We did not choose God but God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world......having to do with His foreknowledge, and I believe sometimes having to do with God's intention for a person in creating them.....some vessels for honourable purposes and some for dishonour.....like in the case of Pharaoh, it was the Lord who hardened his heart......but even so who are we to call God unrighteous. Therefore I conclude that there is probably just something in that I do not fully fathom and so accept God's decision without calling Him unrighteous.

In creating man, the Lord was not creating robots to do His bidding, but wanted living beings who would love and serve and have fellowship with Him of their own free volition. But in creating man with a free will automatically came the problem of temptation........which is a problem solved through the gospel.........already planned and put in motion from the foundation of the world.

We also need to remember God's purposes in creating man.......this is not about us as such......but about God bringing glory to His name and showing His manifold wisdom to the powers and principalities in high places. That He chooses to have compassion on such as we is a matter of great gratitude, it's not one tiny bit a matter of any entitlement on our part.

The bible says man is without excuse, because the truth about God is told in the very things He created.........and that the natural man can be a law unto himself through the conscience........which can sometimes draw God's favour unto salvation, I believe, like in the case of the centurian in book of Acts.

Maybe some are given more understanding, but I'm not even sure we can really come to a conclusion about a matter like this, other than to accept that the Lord is righteous and holy and just plain right in everything He does. And there is the aspect that His word is a living word, alive and active, maybe we could say organic in some ways, so to speak, and we can't always nail everything down....because His word doesn't exist for the purpose of satisfying the curiosity and intellect (carnal mind) and pride of mankind. Though He is gracious and kind to give us wisdom when we need it and humbly ask of Him. He is worthy of all praise and glory and honour, and even what we see and partly understand about Him makes us love and admire and worship Him all the more, and I think that is really what the Lord intends......in glorifying His name.
 
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Hammster

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For an act to be good it needs to be motivated by glorifying God? I'd have thought that glorifying God was sufficient regardless of the motive. Cyrus liberated captive Judah and Israel which was good. Who knows what his motive was?
Everything God does glorifies Himself. God will be glorified by all that He's ordained. That doesn't mean that all of our actions are intended to glorify Him.
 
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Hammster

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Yes.

Do you deny men were taught God's word in Acts 2 and 7?

Do you deny they understood what was taught?

Do you have proof they did not have the ability to understand what was taught unless first acted upon by God? If God must first miraculously act upon man first before man can understand, then what purpose did it serve for God to first miraculously act upon those hearers in Acts 7 just so they could understand but then to only reject what they understood?
So your "proof" is that I can't prove otherwise? That's not in the text.
 
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HeLeadethMe

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No, as I posted earlier Christianity is a "taught" religion (grace teaches - Titus 2). Man is taught by the word therefore no supernatural assistance is needed nor warranted apart from the word.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 
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Aseyesee

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Everything God does glorifies Himself. God will be glorified by all that He's ordained. That doesn't mean that all of our actions are intended to glorify Him.

Ultimately it is God who wills, and not our perceived will in any matter.

I would venture by your post that only his will glorifies him, whereas our will cannot.
 
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GingerBeer

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Everything God does glorifies Himself. God will be glorified by all that He's ordained. That doesn't mean that all of our actions are intended to glorify Him.
If you cannot read the heart an answer to your question about motives is irrelevant. Caiaphas did good in his prophecy and Cyrus did good in freeing Judah and Israel.
 
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Hammster

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If you cannot read the heart an answer to your question about motives is irrelevant. Caiaphas did good in his prophecy and Cyrus did good in freeing Judah and Israel.
Motives are extremely relevant. Otherwise "good" people can get to heaven by their "good" works.
 
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Albion

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Dear Albion. God has given us free will, we can say Yes, or No, to God: s Will.
Well, that is the question, isn't it? There are verses that lean one way on that issue but there also are verses that lean the other way. That's why there is an ongoing controversy.

However, it is also the case that the *No Free will* side has a strong argument from common sense since we know that there are many people who can have the Gospel presented to them time after time, with an explanation, only to have it never make any sense to them. Then too, men cannot ever really understand the nature of the Almighty. That is a fact. So the idea that He must take the initiative is persuasive.
 
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