On Free Will

[jimmyjimmy]

We need to define terms here. There are at least three views of free will: Libertarian, Compatibilism, and Determinism.

 

[frienden thalord]

Just some points to put in the pot, I am not able to catch up with the whole conversation, so some of this might be repeating what others have said.

Well for one thing, we are not God, and neither do we have foreknowledge, so I believe we cannot really begin to understand what it is like to be God, to be in His shoes. The bible itself says we cannot fathom Him......it is for us to worship Him, not try to contain Him.

BUT we can BELIEVE Him.........., and our understanding can grow and increase.........it doesn't mean we can ever plumb His depths though.

Without faith it is impossible to please God........and faith is not of ourselves.

No one comes to Christ lest the Father draws them.........that said, our part is to accept what the Father is doing and not harden our hearts against it.

We did not choose God but God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world......having to do with His foreknowledge, and I believe sometimes having to do with God's intention for a person in creating them.....some vessels for honourable purposes and some for dishonour.....like in the case of Pharaoh, it was the Lord who hardened his heart......but even so who are we to call God unrighteous. Therefore I conclude that there is probably just something in that I do not fully fathom and so accept God's decision without calling Him unrighteous.

In creating man, the Lord was not creating robots to do His bidding, but wanted living beings who would love and serve and have fellowship with Him of their own free volition. But in creating man with a free will automatically came the problem of temptation........which is a problem solved through the gospel.........already planned and put in motion from the foundation of the world.

We also need to remember God's purposes in creating man.......this is not about us as such......but about God bringing glory to His name and showing His manifold wisdom to the powers and principalities in high places. That He chooses to have compassion on such as we is a matter of great gratitude, it's not one tiny bit a matter of any entitlement on our part.

The bible says man is without excuse, because the truth about God is told in the very things He created.........and that the natural man can be a law unto himself through the conscience........which can sometimes draw God's favour unto salvation, I believe, like in the case of the centurian in book of Acts.

Maybe some are given more understanding, but I'm not even sure we can really come to a conclusion about a matter like this, other than to accept that the Lord is righteous and holy and just plain right in everything He does. And there is the aspect that His word is a living word, alive and active, maybe we could say organic in some ways, so to speak, and we can't always nail everything down....because His word doesn't exist for the purpose of satisfying the curiosity and intellect (carnal mind) and pride of mankind. Though He is gracious and kind to give us wisdom when we need it and humbly ask of Him. He is worthy of all praise and glory and honour, and even what we see and partly understand about Him makes us love and admire and worship Him all the more, and I think that is really what the Lord intends......in glorifying His name.

Ponder this , anything that goes against the nature of GOD. HE cannot do.
HE desires none to perish. So everyone gets a chance. Most just reject.
God does harden a heart, but only after that heart has rejected Him.
We were all once what.............now ponder these next words well
We were all once vessels of wrath, children of wrath as paul says in galations or ephesians.
YET LOOK how long suffereing God was towards us children of wrath.
He gave grace. And we became good vessels no longer under wrath.
All vessels good or bad were created the same. , we were all once appointed unto wrath.
EVERYONE WAS. EVERYONE
But as paul says God shows his longsuffering towards us, And grace entered our heart.
I know so many mess up what pual is saying in romans. The key is
if our understanding contradicts JESUS or HIS sayings, we simply have misunderstood.
We who have come by faith , by grace , were first created as vessels of destruction
and appointed unto wrath. As all are. JESUS said he wont return till all nations
have heard the gospel. UNDERSTAND this means EVERYONE did have the chance
to be saved. EVERYONE , every single man or woman .
But when grace is rejected , that is on the one who rejected it.
EVERYONE had a chance. ALL were once vessels of wrath , ALL.
And no, the pot cannot say , why did you make us as this..........instead
be greatful you were called out of darkness. We were all made with free will.
we were all made in carnal flesh. We were all once vessels , children of wrath.
IS this sinking in yet. God desires the GLORY
and our repentance gives him the glory. All is by grace
faith in Christ . But if one rejects or continues not in the goodness of GOD, CHRIST
their remains no more sacrifice for sins.
Everyone go look in the mirror and say , THE ONLY GOODNESS I have is from GOD
I was once the same vessel of wrath as our these who do not know HIM
BUt he was long suffering , not willing for me to perish
just as he is long suffering , not willing for any to.
However many will.......and check this out...by their OWN FREE WILL CHOICE.
FOr all who hate ME loves death .
And the only condemnation a man has , is that he wont come out of darkness
even when he was unctioned too, or if he comes , he wont continue
because some lust or threat will have him flee away.
ALL have a body that is contrary to the SPIRIT
and all have the chance to come unto HIM by his own grace.
MOST REJECT for they love darkness rather than light .

 

[frienden thalord]

For men loved darkness rather than light and wont come to the Light
that their deeds be exposed. THEY CHOSE NOT TOO, THEY CHOSE THEIR SIN OVER HIM

 

[jimmyjimmy]

HE desires none to perish.

How have you arrived at that conclusion?

everyone gets a chance.

Is that how God does it, He leaves people's eternal destinies up to chance?

All vessels good or bad were created the same.

Every read the parable of the Sower? There is good soil and bad soil.

THE ONLY GOODNESS I have is from GOD

That is true.

MOST REJECT for they love darkness rather than light

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

This is a statement regarding all of mankind, or, are you prepared to tell me that when you were not yet a Christian, you loved the light because you deeds were not evil, but good?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

For men loved darkness rather than light and wont come to the Light
that their deeds be exposed. THEY CHOSE NOT TOO, THEY CHOSE THEIR SIN OVER HIM

When you were not yet a Christian, your deeds were good and you wanted them brought into the light?

 

[frienden thalord]

How have you arrived at that conclusion?



Is that how God does it, He leaves people's eternal destinies up to chance?



Every read the parable of the Sower? There is good soil and bad soil.



That is true.



"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

This is a statement regarding all of mankind, or, are you prepared to tell me that when you were not yet a Christian, you loved the light because you deeds were not evil, but good?

Jimmy your drowning let me throw you a life line.
YES the last statement is said about all mankind
yes , iwas evil. His grace drew me to faith in Christ.
Why are you so stuck on we have no free will. This is not true.
MEN rejected, MEN chose..........how often would I have gathered you
ONLY YOU WOULD NOT. YOU WOULD NOT
I desire not the destruction of the wicked, but rather that the wicked
repent of his evil ways. Author. GOD SAID IT.
and paul knew , for paul said GOD desires none to perish but that all would come to Him.
Why is it that you have to believe we have no free will.
what makes you find comfort in this. Is it so one can beleive
they cant stop sinning. IS that it..............jimmy. is that it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jimmy your drowning let me throw you a life line.
YES the last statement is said about all mankind
yes , iwas evil. His grace drew me to faith in Christ.
Why are you so stuck on we have no free will. This is not true.
MEN rejected, MEN chose..........how often would I have gathered you
ONLY YOU WOULD NOT. YOU WOULD NOT
I desire not the destruction of the wicked, but rather that the wicked
repent of his evil ways. Author. GOD SAID IT.
and paul knew , for paul said GOD desires none to perish but that all would come to Him.
Why is it that you have to believe we have no free will.
what makes you find comfort in this. Is it so one can beleive
they cant stop sinning. IS that it..............jimmy. is that it.

Have I said men don't have a free will? Men are free, but not free to choose again their nature or greatest desires.

If you were evil, then your deeds were evil, and you loved darkness, like all men.

 

[frienden thalord]

the way yall understand things contradicts the mass majority of the entire bible.
Jimmy...........................are you having a problem overcoming a certain sin in your life
and want to believe you are slave to it...........
JESUS came to set us free. Just follow the SPirit and you wll not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

[frienden thalord]

Have I said men don't have a free will?

So what on earth do you believe.

 

[frienden thalord]

Jimmy I have a question for you. Do you believe
that the lake of fire is real and a place that many will go to at death.

 

[frienden thalord]

We need to define terms here. There are at least three views of free will: Libertarian, Compatibilism, and Determinism.

What do you believe.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So what on earth do you believe.

You might have asked before you opposed me, no? Isn't it foolish to argue against a man when you don't understand his position?

 

[frienden thalord]

You might have asked before you opposed me, no? Isn't it foolish to argue against a man when you don't understand his position?

Find it n your heart to forgive.
but I would like to know what you believe concering this.

 

[Hammster]

We were all once vessels of wrath, children of wrath as paul says in galations or ephesians.

Actually, it says our nature was the same as those who were children of wrath. But God then saved us.

 

[frienden thalord]

Actually, it says our nature was the same as those who were children of wrath. But God then saved us.

Amen . Do you believe that God desires none to perish.

 

[Hammster]

Amen . Do you believe that God desires none to perish.

Nope. If that were true, then none would.

 

[frienden thalord]

Nope. If that were true, then none would.

So then, when God says I DESIRE that the wicked perish not , but rather that he repent
or as JESUS said
How often would I have gathered you, only You WOULD NOT
they lie .

 

[Hammster]

So then, when God says I DESIRE that the wicked perish not , but rather that he repent
or as JESUS said
How often would I have gathered you, only You WOULD NOT
they lie .

Scripture references, please, because I know Jesus never said that.

 

[frienden thalord]

THE FATHER CANNOT LIE
and HE did send the SON for he does love the world
the thing is..................many wont come to the LIGHT
Does a time come when the wicked get destroyed without mercy. YES.

 

[frienden thalord]

Scripture references, please, because I know Jesus never said that.

God did. and I will happily send lots of them.
PS JESUS did say HOW often would I have gathered you only YOU WOULD NOT
Jesus also is word of GOD and GOD is his word.
however let me go show you the scrips.