50 Reasons for the Pretribulation Rapture

Quasar92 · Jun 30, 2017

Postvieww said:
From provided Link by Quasar92

1 Thes.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

Raised up spiritually or physically ????

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Just exactly what do you mean, they are raised at death which is obviously a spiritual event. Where do they receive their resurrection body of flesh and bone like the one Jesus has??

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Is it your claim all believers receive a flesh and bone body at death? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

1 Corin 15:23 does not state anyone has already been raised at death. The order is clear is this passage Christ the firstfruits and then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

My friend I Do not have training from 2 Bible colleges but I can read, break this down for us a little better please.

Are we as blood bought believers going to receive a physical eternal body like Jesus’s or not and if so when????

Why 1 Thess.4:16 is not a resurrection:

The events of 1 Thess.4:16 will take place approximately seven years before the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4, according to what Jesus revealed to John. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, which they all had, once before, each in his/her own turn. When Jesus RAISED each one of them to heaven, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. They will all return with Jesus when He comes, according to verses 14 and 16.

2. All those left on earth alive at Jesus coming, will be translated, to meet the Lord in the sky with all those who previously died in Christ, in verses 15 and 17. Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51, "we will not all sleep," i.e., we will not all die before the Lord returns. Therefore, in 1 Thess.4:17, those who are here on earth alive at Jesus coming, will be translated up to Him, in the sky, in their glorified bodies.

3. Would you care to provide your opinion on why, believers who have died in Christ since Pentecost were not RAISED to Jesus in heaven, when they died, with glorified bodies as well?

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 30, 2017

parousia70 said:
Your metaphoric interpretation of the "time is near".

If you held to a literal interpretation of that, you wouldn't be claiming those things have yet to take place.

Are you suggesting the events of Rev.have already taken place?

Rev.1:3 states the book is prophecy, and is, as a matter of fact, an ampification of Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and Lk.21. None of which has taken place yet, from chapter 4 on.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 30, 2017

precepts said:
False doctrines do not exist in an educated world by accident. It's your world.

The above opinion is as far as you are able to field an argument that any of my post #273 is false, that proves the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, is Scriptural truth and fact.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 30, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Nice story above, with scripture taken out of context to prove your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

But it is like a big balloon, which will be popped by one little verse.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

Your whole system of interpretation is destroyed by the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody will come to salvation during a future time, outside of the Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)

.

　

Review my post #273 tht refutes your bove guesswork, that any of it is out of context. Let me see your best effort to prove any of such false opinion.

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jul 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Let me see your best effort to prove any of such false opinion.

1Th 4:13　 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　
(The word "descend" means come down. Look it up in any dictionary.)

1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　(The word "But" is a connector. In this case it connects chapter 4 to chapter 5. A description of the event is found at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.)

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　(Here we are given the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief. Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, this is clearly a Second Coming event.)

1Th 5:3　 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus
Christ,　(Pretribbers often claim that the tribulation period is God's wrath. However, the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are two different Greek words. Also in Revelation chapter 12 we find that some of the period is Satan's wrath.)

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
(The words "we" and "sleep" in this verse tie chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
　

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage above, as pretribbers claim.
It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.

This event occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

It is not my "best effort". It is what is plainly written in God's Word.

.

Postvieww · Jul 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The events of 1 Thess.4:16 will take place approximately seven years before the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4, according to what Jesus revealed to John. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, which they all had, once before, each in his/her own turn. When Jesus RAISED each one of them to heaven, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. They will all return with Jesus when He comes, according to verses 14 and 16.

2. All those left on earth alive at Jesus coming, will be translated, to meet the Lord in the sky with all those who previously died in Christ, in verses 15 and 17. Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:51, "we will not all sleep," i.e., we will not all die before the Lord returns. Therefore, in 1 Thess.4:17, those who are here on earth alive at Jesus coming, will be translated up to Him, in the sky, in their glorified bodies.

Your certainly have the talking points down pat.

Here are my questions again that you did not answer.

From post #268

1.Just exactly what do you mean, they are raised at death which is obviously a spiritual event. Where do they receive their resurrection body of flesh and bone like the one Jesus has??

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

Is it your claim all believers receive a flesh and bone body at death? A simple yes or no will suffice.

2. 1 Corin 15:23 does not state anyone has already been raised at death. The order is clear is this passage Christ the firstfruits and then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

3. Are we as blood bought believers going to receive a physical eternal body like Jesus’s or not and if so when????

Quasar92 said:
3. Would you care to provide your opinion on why, believers who have died in Christ since Pentecost were not RAISED to Jesus in heaven, when they died, with glorified bodies as well?

I don’t believe anyone receives a glorified body until Jesus comes again.

1 Corin. 15:51-52

Quasar92 · Jul 1, 2017

BABerean2 said:
1Th 4:13　 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　
(The word "descend" means come down. Look it up in any dictionary.)

1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　(The word "But" is a connector. In this case it connects chapter 4 to chapter 5. A description of the event is found at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event is found at the beginning of chapter 5.)

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　(Here we are given the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief. Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, this is clearly a Second Coming event.)

1Th 5:3　 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus
Christ,　(Pretribbers often claim that the tribulation period is God's wrath. However, the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are two different Greek words. Also in Revelation chapter 12 we find that some of the period is Satan's wrath.)

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
(The words "we" and "sleep" in this verse tie chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
　

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage above, as pretribbers claim.
It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.

This event occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

It is not my "best effort". It is what is plainly written in God's Word.

.

Don't you ever get tired of denying the Scriptures that teach the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, clearly set forth in my post #273? Nothing has changed since then.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jul 1, 2017

Postvieww said:
Your certainly have the talking points down pat.

Here are my questions again that you did not answer.

From post #268

1.Just exactly what do you mean, they are raised at death which is obviously a spiritual event. Where do they receive their resurrection body of flesh and bone like the one Jesus has??

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

Is it your claim all believers receive a flesh and bone body at death? A simple yes or no will suffice.

2. 1 Corin 15:23 does not state anyone has already been raised at death. The order is clear is this passage Christ the firstfruits and then those that are Christ’s at His coming.

3. Are we as blood bought believers going to receive a physical eternal body like Jesus’s or not and if so when????

I don’t believe anyone receives a glorified body until Jesus comes again.

1 Corin. 15:51-52

When those of us ho belong to Jesus die, He immediately RAISES our spirit/soul to heaven with Him, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7, as I previously wrote.

As Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:44; 50 and 51-54, When we are raised from the dead, we will have an immortal, imperishable spiritual body. Flesh , blood and bones do not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus was not seen by the men accompanying Saul, on the road to Damascus, according to Acts 8:7. If the pre-incarnate Jesus and angels had the power to materialize physically, as recorded in Gen.18. 19 and 32, as well as in Josh.5:13-15 and in Dan.12:7, please tell me why we will not have the same power. In 1 Jn.3:2, he wrote that we do not know what we will be like, except that we will be like Him when He returns. A review of Ecc.12:7 would clearly infer, there will be no further need for our natural physical body once it has died, such as "returning to the dust from which it came."

2. With reference to 1 Cor.15:23, the order of resurrection is discussed, but the issue of what the body will specifically be, is not. That issue comes later, as covered in 1. above. The order of events is: Jesus first, the firstfruits second/all of those who previously died in Christ, and third, all of those who are His at His coming.
3. Our eternal bodies will not be flesh blood and bones, but rather, spiritual bodies, according to 1 Cor.15:44 and 50.

Quasar92

parousia70 · Jul 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Are you suggesting the events of Rev.have already taken place?

Of course I am.
Revelation is directly, primarily applicable to the original audience. Any application we can derive that applies to us today cannot be correct if we say it did not apply at all to the people who first received it. That's Hermeneutics 101

Rev.1:3 states the book is prophecy, and is, as a matter of fact, an ampification of Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and Lk.21.

We Agee!
I love it when we agree!

None of which has taken place yet, from chapter 4 on.

Are you claiming Revelation 2:20-23 and Revelation 3:3 have already happened?

When?

Are you conversely claiming Luke 21:20 has not yet taken place?

After all, Luke 21:20 was a prophecy given by Jesus that you say is amplified in the Revelaion was it not? So according to your stated interpretation, that never happened yet, did it?

precepts · Jul 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The above opinion is as far as you are able to field an argument that any of my post #273 is false, that proves the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, is Scriptural truth and fact.

Quasar92

What it means is that I have the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and the serenity to accept what I can't.

Postvieww · Jul 1, 2017

Quasar92 said:
When those of us ho belong to Jesus die, He immediately RAISES our spirit/soul to heaven with Him, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7, as I previously wrote.

As Paul wrote in 1 Cor.15:44; 50 and 51-54, When we are raised from the dead, we will have an immortal, imperishable spiritual body. Flesh , blood and bones do not inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus was not seen by the men accompanying Saul, on the road to Damascus, according to Acts 8:7. If the pre-incarnate Jesus and angels had the power to materialize physically, as recorded in Gen.18. 19 and 32, as well as in Josh.5:13-15 and in Dan.12:7, please tell me why we will not have the same power. In 1 Jn.3:2, he wrote that we do not know what we will be like, except that we will be like Him when He returns. A review of Ecc.12:7 would clearly infer, there will be no further need for our natural physical body once it has died, such as "returning to the dust from which it came."

2. With reference to 1 Cor.15:23, the order of resurrection is discussed, but the issue of what the body will specifically be, is not. That issue comes later, as covered in 1. above. The order of events is: Jesus first, the firstfruits second/all of those who previously died in Christ, and third, all of those who are His at His coming.
3. Our eternal bodies will not be flesh blood and bones, but rather, spiritual bodies, according to 1 Cor.15:44 and 50.

Quasar92

Thank you for answering the questions. Here is why I disagree.

1. In 1 Corin. 15:44 Paul said we would be raised in a spiritual BODY. In 1 Corin. 15:52 Paul said “the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed”. Paul did not describe that change. Your paraphrase of 1 Corin. 15:50 is inaccurate. You said “. Flesh , blood and bones do not inherit the kingdom of God”. Paul said flesh and blood, we are now flesh and blood and bone if you wish. Jesus said his resurrected body was flesh and bone, he was the first fruits His blood bought our salvation. In humans, life is in the blood, in the resurrection life is in Christ. Paul said our bodies would be like Christ’s body. I believe what is written, if our body is to be like Christ’s and His is flesh and bone that is what I believe we will have. Disagree if you wish, I believe I am on the side of scripture. Jesus said He was not a spirit but flesh and bone.

1 John 3:2 says we will be like Him and Philippians 3:21 says we will” be fashioned like unto his glorious body”. Again you misquote you said “we do not know what we will be like” John said “it doth not yet appear what we shall be like” he did not say we will not or cannot know. I see no conflict here.

Jesus appeared in a room with the doors shut in a flesh and bone body and yet Thomas touched His flesh and bone body. You question why we will not have the same power assumes we will not. What do you base that statement on ?

2. You are making a habit of misrepresenting what the scripture say.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul only says Jesus the first fruits and those at His coming. You have managed to come up with 3 when Paul only wrote 2. Is this how you make this doctrine work?

3. More word games and interpretative gymnastics. Jesus said he was not a spirit He did not say He was not a spiritual body.

I believe you are far from truth on this point.

Quasar92 · Jul 1, 2017

Postvieww said:
Thank you for answering the questions. Here is why I disagree.

1. In 1 Corin. 15:44 Paul said we would be raised in a spiritual BODY. In 1 Corin. 15:52 Paul said “the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed”. Paul did not describe that change. Your paraphrase of 1 Corin. 15:50 is inaccurate. You said “. Flesh , blood and bones do not inherit the kingdom of God”. Paul said flesh and blood, we are now flesh and blood and bone if you wish. Jesus said his resurrected body was flesh and bone, he was the first fruits His blood bought our salvation. In humans, life is in the blood, in the resurrection life is in Christ. Paul said our bodies would be like Christ’s body. I believe what is written, if our body is to be like Christ’s and His is flesh and bone that is what I believe we will have. Disagree if you wish, I believe I am on the side of scripture. Jesus said He was not a spirit but flesh and bone.

1 John 3:2 says we will be like Him and Philippians 3:21 says we will” be fashioned like unto his glorious body”. Again you misquote you said “we do not know what we will be like” John said “it doth not yet appear what we shall be like” he did not say we will not or cannot know. I see no conflict here.

Jesus appeared in a room with the doors shut in a flesh and bone body and yet Thomas touched His flesh and bone body. You question why we will not have the same power assumes we will not. What do you base that statement on ?

2. You are making a habit of misrepresenting what the scripture say.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul only says Jesus the first fruits and those at His coming. You have managed to come up with 3 when Paul only wrote 2. Is this how you make this doctrine work?

3. More word games and interpretative gymnastics. Jesus said he was not a spirit He did not say He was not a spiritual body.

I believe you are far from truth on this point.

Why do you ask me for my views when you have those of your own? I suggest you refrain from judging what I post as "wrong." I do not have the time to rebuke you tonight, but will, when time permits me to do so.

couple of things for you to think about: God is spirit, as recorded in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, and obviously has a Spiritual body. It is also invisible The other point is, I added bone to the flesh and blood mentioned in 1 Cor.15:50, because bone is what produces the blood in the body, and it will not inherit the kingdom of God any mote than flesh and blood will.

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jul 2, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Don't you ever get tired of denying the Scriptures that teach the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, clearly set forth in my post #273? Nothing has changed since then.

Quasar92

I get tired of posting the scripture proving that the pretrib doctrine is false and then seeing someone claim otherwise, because of their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine first brought to America about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby.

Then at the same time they deny the recent history of this manmade doctrine.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Judge the following based on scripture, instead of Scofield's notes.

Postvieww · Jul 2, 2017

Quasar92 said:
Why do you ask me for my views when you have those of your own? I suggest you refrain from judging what I post as "wrong." I do not have the time to rebuke you tonight, but will, when time permits me to do so.

couple of things for you to think about: God is spirit, as recorded in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, and obviously has a Spiritual body. It is also invisible The other point is, I added bone to the flesh and blood mentioned in 1 Cor.15:50, because bone is what produces the blood in the body, and it will not inherit the kingdom of God any mote than flesh and blood will.

Quasar92

Quasar92 said:

Why do you ask me for my views when you have those of your own?

Excuse me, I thought this was a debate forum where everyone’s views are subject to be challenged including mine. When I think you are wrong I will state why.

I suggest you refrain from judging what I post as "wrong."

My friend if I had a nickel for every time someone told me I was wrong on this forum I would take us both out to dinner. I suggested you refrain from posting an opinion on a debate forum you believe is above being discussed and possibly challenged.

I do not have the time to rebuke you tonight, but will, when time permits me to do so.

Is a rebuke something like me judging by the Word of God your opinion to be wrong?

couple of things for you to think about: God is spirit, as recorded in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, and obviously has a Spiritual body.

Sure let’s discuss them. As I pointed out Jesus said:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 Corin. 15:52 says “we shall be changed” and John said in 1 john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corin. 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

"Not the BODY that it shall be", we are discussing a body here.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

We are discussing flesh here.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

We are discussing celestial bodies which we will have at the resurrection and terrestrial bodies which we have now.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What could be clearer we now have and natural body and we will have a spiritual body just like the one Jesus has. Philippians 3:21

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

It is also invisible

Jesus the Son after the resurrection, was only invisible when He wanted to be He said a Spirit did not have flesh and bone as He did.

The other point is, I added bone to the flesh and blood mentioned in 1 Cor.15:50, because bone is what produces the blood in the body, and it will not inherit the kingdom of God any mote than flesh and blood will.

It is you who must challenge the words of Jesus, John and Paul. We will have a new body, it will be changed from the one we now have, it will be flesh and bone like Jesus’s but it will be a body none the less. Yes a flesh and blood body as we have now cannot inherit the kingdom of God but one that has made anew at the resurrection of flesh and bone like that of Jesus can.

The whole point of this exchange is because you posted your opinion that 1 Thess 4 was not a resurrection. I believe that view is false, it is you that must defend it. The fact you say all of this takes place at death is in my opinion error. I have stated why I believe that to be so.

Further more I believe every single one of the 50 points you borrowed and posted can be rebutted. I can post a link to that rebuttal if you wish.

Quasar92 · Jul 2, 2017

Postvieww said:
Quasar92 said:

Why do you ask me for my views when you have those of your own?

Excuse me, I thought this was a debate forum where everyone’s views are subject to be challenged including mine. When I think you are wrong I will state why.

I suggest you refrain from judging what I post as "wrong."

My friend if I had a nickel for every time someone told me I was wrong on this forum I would take us both out to dinner. I suggested you refrain from posting an opinion on a debate forum you believe is above being discussed and possibly challenged.

I do not have the time to rebuke you tonight, but will, when time permits me to do so.

Is a rebuke something like me judging by the Word of God your opinion to be wrong?

couple of things for you to think about: God is spirit, as recorded in Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, and obviously has a Spiritual body.

Sure let’s discuss them. As I pointed out Jesus said:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 Corin. 15:52 says “we shall be changed” and John said in 1 john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corin. 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

"Not the BODY that it shall be", we are discussing a body here.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

We are discussing flesh here.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

We are discussing celestial bodies which we will have at the resurrection and terrestrial bodies which we have now.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What could be clearer we now have and natural body and we will have a spiritual body just like the one Jesus has. Philippians 3:21

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

It is also invisible

Jesus the Son after the resurrection, was only invisible when He wanted to be He said a Spirit did not have flesh and bone as He did.

The other point is, I added bone to the flesh and blood mentioned in 1 Cor.15:50, because bone is what produces the blood in the body, and it will not inherit the kingdom of God any mote than flesh and blood will.

It is you who must challenge the words of Jesus, John and Paul. We will have a new body, it will be changed from the one we now have, it will be flesh and bone like Jesus’s but it will be a body none the less. Yes a flesh and blood body as we have now cannot inherit the kingdom of God but one that has made anew at the resurrection of flesh and bone like that of Jesus can.

The whole point of this exchange is because you posted your opinion that 1 Thess 4 was not a resurrection. I believe that view is false, it is you that must defend it. The fact you say all of this takes place at death is in my opinion error. I have stated why I believe that to be so.

Further more I believe every single one of the 50 points you borrowed and posted can be rebutted. I can post a link to that rebuttal if you wish.

Yes, of course you could rebut what Jesus, the late Dr. John L. Walvoord, former President of Dallas Theological Seminary, who composed the 50 reasons for the rapture of the church in the OP, or for that matter , anyone else, including me,

The reasons why 1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection, as I posted in the very first reason for it in my post @282, is becvause it would make a liar out of Jesus, as seen in the following:

>>>The events of 1 Thess.4:16 will take place approximately seven years before the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4, according to what Jesus revealed to John. Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, which they all had, once before, each in his/her own turn. When Jesus RAISED each one of them to heaven, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. They will all return with Jesus when He comes, according to verses 14 and 16.<<<

You also have problems underst5anding what a spiritual body is together with text from translations other than the one you are using. None of which are valid reasons to call me or anyone else "wrong."

1 Cor/15:44 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Cor.15:50 "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

The above text is from the NIV. Attempting to base your rebuke of what I posted on the basis of a different interpetation of the text from another translation, is not a valid reason for telling me I'm "wrong." I use four different Bibles to find the text that best describes what the subject is bout.

You also seem to have a problem with the issue of a spiritual body. Just what do you think it consists of?

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jul 2, 2017

BABerean2 said:
I get tired of posting the scripture proving that the pretrib doctrine is false and then seeing someone claim otherwise, because of their Two Peoples of God/Two Plans of God doctrine first brought to America about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby.

Then at the same time they deny the recent history of this manmade doctrine.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Judge the following based on scripture, instead of Scofield's notes.

You have been given the Scriptural teachings of the coming pre-trib raptue of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, many times over, which you flagrantly falsely deny. You have NEVER proven any of it is false! But it has proven your views to be, time after time.

Your continual posting of videos with the opinion of someone who thinks they refute the Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture by Jesus and His disciple is DOA and will NEVER fly! I want to see your personal written attempt to refute any part of the Scriptural facts in #273, or get out of the kitchen, where it has gotten too hot for you! Read the following four post link!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

Postvieww · Jul 2, 2017

Quasar92 said:

Yes, of course you could rebut what Jesus, the late Dr. John L. Walvoord, former President of Dallas Theological Seminary, who composed the 50 reasons for the rapture of the church in the OP, or for that matter , anyone else, including me,

No problem rebutting you or Dr. John L. Walvoord, but Jesus himself refutes the pre-trib doctrine.

The reasons why 1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection, as I posted in the very first reason for it in my post @282, is becvause it would make a liar out of Jesus, as seen in the following:

>>>The events of 1 Thess.4:16 will take place approximately seven years before the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4, according to what Jesus revealed to John.

Please show any reference to “7 years before” in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4.

Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, which they all had, once before, each in his/her own turn. When Jesus RAISED each one of them to heaven, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. They will all return with Jesus when He comes, according to verses 14 and 16.<<<

The only "turn" for a believers resurrection is at the last trump at His coming!

You keep referring to 2 Cor.5:6-8, Ecc.12:7. Lets look at both of those.

2 Corin. 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I seems apparent from Eccl.12 when one dies their “spirit” goes back to be with the Lord which is consistent with what Paul wrote in 2 Corin. 5. Where our disagreement comes in is you trying to make that event a resurrection which is not.

You also have problems underst5anding what a spiritual body is together with text from translations other than the one you are using. None of which are valid reasons to call me or anyone else "wrong."

1 Cor/15:44 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Verse 42 sets the context which is the resurrection of the dead which according to verse 52 is at the last trump which is not at the death of each individual believer. That is the point you avoid addressing.

1 Cor.15:50 "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Are you saying the trumpet will sound at the death of each believer?

The above text is from the NIV. Attempting to base your rebuke of what I posted on the basis of a different interpetation of the text from another translation, is not a valid reason for telling me I'm "wrong." I use four different Bibles to find the text that best describes what the subject is bout.

I care not which or how many translations you use, that does not change the fact the resurrection takes place at the last trump at His coming and not at the death of each individual believer.

You also seem to have a problem with the issue of a spiritual body. Just what do you think it consists of?

No I just believe Jesus when he said His was flesh and bone. Can you refute that He said that?

parousia70 · Jul 2, 2017

Postvieww said:
Paul said our bodies would be like Christ's body. I believe what is written, if our body is to be like Christ’s and His is flesh and bone that is what I believe we will have. Disagree if you wish, I believe I am on the side of scripture. Jesus said He was not a spirit but flesh and bone.

So you likewise believe we will retain any wounds we may receive in death "like Christ's body" did?

1 John 3:2 says we will be like Him

Click to expand...

Was not John m eyewitness to the flesh and bone resurrected Christ?
Why then did he say It has not yet been revealed what our "Christ like" resurrected bodies will be in 1 John 2?

Jesus appeared in a room with the doors shut in a flesh and bone body and yet Thomas touched His flesh and bone body. You question why we will not have the same power assumes we will not. What do you base that statement on ?

Click to expand...

And His pre cross body walked on water and walked through hostile crowds untouched.
How do you extrapolate from that that His pre cross body was incapable of walking through walls?

parousia70 · Jul 2, 2017

Quasar92 said:
3. Would you care to provide your opinion on why, believers who have died in Christ since Pentecost were not RAISED to Jesus in heaven, when they died, with glorified bodies as well?

Quasar92

You have the nature correct, but your timing is off by 40 years.
Heaven was not open to the dead until the temple fell.

Hebrews 9:8

Quasar92 · Jul 2, 2017

Postvieww said:
Quasar92 said:

Yes, of course you could rebut what Jesus, the late Dr. John L. Walvoord, former President of Dallas Theological Seminary, who composed the 50 reasons for the rapture of the church in the OP, or for that matter , anyone else, including me,

No problem rebutting you or Dr. John L. Walvoord, but Jesus himself refutes the pre-trib doctrine.

The reasons why 1 Thess.4:16 IS NOT a resurrection, as I posted in the very first reason for it in my post @282, is becvause it would make a liar out of Jesus, as seen in the following:

>>>The events of 1 Thess.4:16 will take place approximately seven years before the FIRST resurrection in Rev.20:4, according to what Jesus revealed to John.

Please show any reference to “7 years before” in the text of 1 Thessalonians 4.

Paul wrote that the dead in Christ will RISE first, which they all had, once before, each in his/her own turn. When Jesus RAISED each one of them to heaven, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8, confirming Ecc.12:7. They will all return with Jesus when He comes, according to verses 14 and 16.<<<

The only "turn" for a believers resurrection is at the last trump at His coming!

You keep referring to 2 Cor.5:6-8, Ecc.12:7. Lets look at both of those.

2 Corin. 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I seems apparent from Eccl.12 when one dies their “spirit” goes back to be with the Lord which is consistent with what Paul wrote in 2 Corin. 5. Where our disagreement comes in is you trying to make that event a resurrection which is not.

You also have problems underst5anding what a spiritual body is together with text from translations other than the one you are using. None of which are valid reasons to call me or anyone else "wrong."

1 Cor/15:44 "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Verse 42 sets the context which is the resurrection of the dead which according to verse 52 is at the last trump which is not at the death of each individual believer. That is the point you avoid addressing.

1 Cor.15:50 "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Are you saying the trumpet will sound at the death of each believer?

The above text is from the NIV. Attempting to base your rebuke of what I posted on the basis of a different interpetation of the text from another translation, is not a valid reason for telling me I'm "wrong." I use four different Bibles to find the text that best describes what the subject is bout.

I care not which or how many translations you use, that does not change the fact the resurrection takes place at the last trump at His coming and not at the death of each individual believer.

You also seem to have a problem with the issue of a spiritual body. Just what do you think it consists of?

No I just believe Jesus when he said His was flesh and bone. Can you refute that He said that?

You have a problem of assuming what I have written and then trying to put words in my mouth. When Jesus RAISES the spirit/souls of all believers who die in Him to heaven, each in his/her own turn, IT IS NOT A RESURRECTION! Capiche?! Confirming Ecc;12:7!

It is time you started reading the Scrip-tures I have posted that refute what you have been posting. Jesus most certainly did teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church.. Review the following and stop trying to make liars of He, His disciples and me!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

Quasar92

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