Tithing Troubles

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...Is it wrong that we put the money into what the church needs instead of tithing it directly to the Pastor? ... ...Are we wrong? At what point do we stop being blind and start holding those in position accountable?...

I have understood from the Bible that:

- Giving money is voluntary
While you kept it, didn't it remain your own? After it was sold, wasn't it in your power? How is it that you have conceived this thing in your heart? You haven't lied to men, but to God."
Acts 5:4

- It was meant to be shared for those who are in need, not for the leaders.
As it is written, "He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack."
2 Cor. 8:15
Did I take advantage of you by anyone of them whom I have sent to you?
2 Cor. 12:17

- Leaders who wants your money
In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn't linger, and their destruction will not slumber.
2 Peter 2:3
“…If he asks for money, he is a false prophet… … But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
 
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danstribe

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My desire is to be in line with what God is asking me to do. My problem is not with tithing. My problem stems from listening to the Pastor give a sermon on how we need to put God first, and therefor should tithe 10% without question, but then he takes that money and keeps it, rather than use it for the church and God's people. I struggle with that. Maybe I need God to work on my heart. Or maybe I am being shown this issue to do something about it.

My father in law built his first church from his living room into an AG church building of 300+ people with programs, outreaches, and missions trips. His wife also had a fantastic job that allowed him to focus full time ministry. Now that his finances are different, all I see is the money going to him (what little money there is). There are no outreaches, prayers, functions, etc, unless my wife and I put it on with the help of new christians eager to serve. Some have already asked questions about it... why can we not afford food for a church picnic? Why are we being told the doors will close when the numbers have increase (and though they do not have access to the numbers as our pastor will not share them, we do have an increase in income, but that just goes to restoring his salary to pre-cut numbers). I obviously will not tell these details to the congregation, but it makes it hard when they end up leaving. Maybe because he has reached his 60's this is his retirement plan, but if so, it should not take away from God's kingdom. I feel he should sow the money back into the church and practice what he preaches.

My wife and I have discussed at length, and we do agree that it is wrong. We are on the same page. But with it being her father we have no idea what to do...
The tithe, Paul said that there was of necessity a change in the Law concerning the priesthood of the Levites, it is now the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek aka Christ and the tithe is to be given to those ministers of Christ. I would think that after much prayer for guidance on what to do God will show you. In the mean time trust God to take care of His own money which is the tithe. You're not giving it to a man you are giving it to God.
 
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Mr H A Bull

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Firstly, God bless you and your honest and genuine efforts to serve our Savior. Secondly, you have done right to put your effort in where it's most needed.

There is no Christian requirement to 'tithe' but merely to give according to your ability. The other issue is that giving isn't just about money. One thing that is far more valuable than money is your time. It's a finite resource which should be spent wisely and in the service of God.

Your Pastor sounds like a lazy individual and perhaps he should be 'tithing' his time more! It may also be an interesting excersise to put a financial value to your physical work and perhaps charge your time out at craftsman's rates. say $50 per hour and next time someone challenges you wave the bill under their nose.
 
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Mark51

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At no time were first-century Christians commanded to pay tithes. The primary purpose of the tithing arrangement under the Law had been to support Israel’s temple and priesthood; consequently the obligation to pay tithes ceased when that Mosaic Law covenant came to an end as fulfilled, through Christ’s death on the torture stake.-Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:13, 14.

As Christians, they were encouraged to give support to the Christian ministry both by their own ministerial activity and by material contributions. Instead of giving fixed, specified amounts to defray congregational expenses, they were to contribute “according to what a person has,” giving “as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 8:12; 9:7) Note that original apostles were not financially compensated; and, the apostle Paul set an example in seeking to avoid bringing an undue financial burden on the congregation.-Acts 18:3; 1 Thessalonians 2:9.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I am grateful to be a part of a local church which has very little in the way of financial needs so that most of the offerings go to missionaries and we are encouraged to use our resources as God directs, not according to some legalistic formula which we can use to salve our conscience.

That said, yesterday we sang a peculiar hymn, "Have I Done My Best for Jesus?" The implication of the hymn was that we must "do our best" to please God. The reality is, of course, that "our best" is filthy rags in God's sight and we can never possibly please God in our own efforts. He loves us despite who we are (sinners) rather than what we do.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Hello. Does your church have a plurality of elders and deacons? A treasurer? A renumeration committee? More accountability might be worth looking into. God Bless :)

Yes we have elders and deacons and a treasurer. There is no remuneration committee probably because we are actually quite small and not a lot of funds are collected.
 
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lismore

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Yes we have elders and deacons and a treasurer. There is no remuneration committee probably because we are actually quite small and not a lot of funds are collected.

Hello friend, thanks for your reply. That would be my advice then. A renumeration committee, the treasurer, the secretary, deacons, elders and several members appointed by the congregation, to the amount of about seven. They independent of the pastor and all others to set a fair wage for church staff in accordance with the income. And as the pastor likes 10% tithing so much, a tenth of his wage to be deducted and used to pay for the things around the church that the members require.

Having one man in charge like a little god is not the NT way, IMO. A plurality of elders and deacons appointed by the congregation, that's the way.

God Bless :)
 
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bbbbbbb

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Hello friend, thanks for your reply. That would be my advice then. A renumeration committee, the treasurer, the secretary, deacons, elders and several members appointed by the congregation, to the amount of about seven. They independent of the pastor and all others to set a fair wage for church staff in accordance with the income. And as the pastor likes 10% tithing so much, a tenth of his wage to be deducted and used to pay for the things around the church that the members require.

Having one man in charge like a little god is not the NT way, IMO. A plurality of elders and deacons appointed by the congregation, that's the way.

God Bless :)

I have a much simpler solution. Ditch the pastor and the remuneration committee. It makes everything much better and easier. Our members don't have any special things they require around the church, so most of the money collected goes to missionaries and others outside the church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Hi everyone! I have been reading Christianforums for some time now and feel this is the community to seeks answers from as my in person questions have gone unanswered. I will try to give thorough detail, but I am not looking to be negative. If you want to skip the background info, my question is at the bottom.

Let me start by stating this: I believe tithing is necessary, biblical, and rewarding.

I am married to the Pastor's daughter. She is the worship leader at our church and has been for many many years. I first met my wife almost 4 years ago when I came to church for the first time. The church was renting a room from a business each week and struggled with finances. The congregation size at that time was about 25 people, about half hit or miss. This particilar group was the remnants of a much larger congregation, about 300 people, from an AG church that went through a fierce split and shut down after the Pastor (my father in law) divorced his wife after years of neglect and suspected adultery (she ended up marrying the worship pastor in question).
The one thing that stood out to me was the lack of ANYTHING at the weekly services. There were literally chairs and a very small sound system with 2 speakers and a mic. I continued to go as his messages really spoke to me and the worship was just phenomenal (my now wife was leading worship at that time and now travels to sing on top of leading on Sundays). I quickly became involved in the church as there were several areas I was able to help in (I am now the tech director).
Fast forward to today (many things took place between then and now but they are irrelevant to my question). We have a new building that we rent monthly, space for a kids church and nursery. We were in the building for a year with the same chairs and small sound system. As I had become heavily involved, I spoke with the Pastor many times about things the church needed (I say needed because we were losing members due to these specific complaints and could not retain any new members). I was repeatedly told we did not have the money for sound equipment, bibles, basic church signage and decor, or to pay anyone but the Pastor (at this time the amount was not known). We held a church picnic which everyone had to bring all of their own stuff. The church was unable to provide ANYTHING like they always had years before.
Messages about tithing and threats of doors shutting became more frequent. My wife and I were desprate to get the church off the ground. We personally funded a new sound system, repaired entire sections of missing drywall in the building, build a sound booth, built a nursery from scratch, created decor and decorated the church, and started putting on events such as movie nights and community outreaches, all on our own, all out of pocket. The Pastor would continually say we did not have the money for these things so if we wanted to get them we could. Since we invested into these things and organized these events, we have seen an increase to 60 steady members each week, and we grow weekly!

The money we put into the church and the items it needed and the events we put on in the churches name are far far greater than "10%" tithe. We found out that our church brings in around 50k a year from our small congregation, and about 85% of that goes to the Pastor in salary, paying his utilities, and reimbursements to him. The other 15% goes to office supplies and the rent. He does not have another job, nor has he ever. His new wife has had to go get a job to make ends meet.

Here is my question: We are told to be good stewards of our money. To tithe with a cheerful heart. Is it wrong that we put the money into what the church needs instead of tithing it directly to the Pastor? After pouring our time, talents, and treasures into the church, because the Pastor would not, we did start putting our tithe into what the church needed instead of the offering plate. We tithed faithfully for 2 years, in which time the Pastor would not do a single thing for the church, only threatening to close the doors. Once we stopped tithing, he pulled us aside and reprimanded us, saying God would remove his hand of blessing from our lives. That was a year ago. Since then we have continue to make improvements that has lead to explosive growth of our church. We are seeing people give their hearts to Jesus weekly. We wanted to leave the church all together to go to a church more in line with our values, but with him being family it is not that easy. Are we wrong? At what point do we stop being blind and start holding those in position accountable? I have talked with all of the elders, and each one has told me in one way or another that they are just "yes men" and that I should just give my money and let God handle the rest. That to me is turning a blind eye. I understand Pastors should be paid, but taking 85% of the churches money and threatening to close doors after talking about how he "took a pay cut" seems very off to me. My wife and I put about 20 hours a week into the church, purchase all the items for the church, and put on all community events with the help of other members, not the Pastor. If I believe all he says, then God is upset with me for all of these works. If left to Pastor, they would never happen. I feel like it is a matter of what is more important, leading people to God or paying my Pastor's bills.

I am open to all answers and criticism. I am by no means selfish, and I understand everything I have is God's anyways. That is why I spend as much as I do without submitting reimbursement or expecting any acknowledgement of my efforts. I just want to see the people reached and saved and have a place to call home finally.
I know this is a late reply, but...
As a Catholic, my Church never preaches tithing, and my average parish in my diocese gets about 5K per week. Our pastors make $30K a year, and the rest is for utilities, upkeep and a tax to the diocese, basically.
We operate on the premise that it's all God, and He provides us this stipend. We should give some to the Church, the poor, and so on (to live the corporal works of mercy), and should share our talent with the church (to live the spiritual works of mercy). It's all His.
If the pastor's message is good, he'd draw more people regardless of the conditions of chairs and sound system and so on. That stuff is kinda irrelevant, though nice to have. (We just bought equipment for doing video presentations to our confirmation classes, but have done without for years).

So if you act as if it's all his, and you're the steward of the talent, do what your conscience tells you. Pray about it, and go for it.
 
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lismore

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I have a much simpler solution. Ditch the pastor and the remuneration committee. It makes everything much better and easier. Our members don't have any special things they require around the church, so most of the money collected goes to missionaries and others outside the church.

That's good then, but somehow I don't think it will help the brother in the OP. God Bless :)
 
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