Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Radrook · Nov 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
What you said is that it is designated and he (Judas) is found guilty before he is born.

None of your verses show that. So then is your statement incorrect?

The scriptures tell us that God knows from the beginning the end.

Isaiah 46:10 ►
New International Version
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please

John 2:24
But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed, "Lord, You know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two You have chosen

That doesn't mean that he predestined Judas. That only means that he knew what Judas would do and why Judas would do it. He knew that despite seeing all those miracles personally, Judas would still be more interested in stealing money. He knew that despite Judas being given the Apostolic privileges he was given, that Judas would still betray Jesus. Jesus said that it would have been better that he had not been born. So he was not taking the betrayal lightly even though he knew it was necessary for our salvation that he be handed over to the Sanhedrin and ultimately to the Romans for crucifixion..

What made Judas fling the money aside and feel remorse we aren't told. The miraculous events accompanying the crucifixion such as the quake, the rending of the curtain-of the Most Holy along with the prolonged darkness? Mel Gibson's film The Passion has him being harassed by demons.

We simply aren't told. But that this sin does involve a sin against the Holy Spirit's clear manifestation via miracles is very evident.

Uber Genius · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

"Blotted out" is associated with not persevering in Christ, and has no association to sin generally.

If this were the case then Galatians would have to be thrown out. Eph 2 at least, Romans 5-8, and all of Hebrews would hit the trash pile as hopelessly contradictory.

One of the challenges to inferring that Judas was "Saved" is that it strains soteriology. That is we see salvation being inextricably linked to Christ's work on the cross. The law is fulfilled by him on Calvary, not a moment before. In fact until the spirit descends and baptizes the disciples they are not technically, saved.

So the analogy is a false one with regards to Judas' salvation. That said, he did operate in the same power of the Spirit that the other disciples and the 70 did. He commanded demons, and healed the sick. Which is a lot more than most of us Christians have done.

I like the idea of your post but would reframe it as an Old Covenant example of the need for perseverance.

Also, I would give no place for someone to misinterpret salvation as having to do initially or from a maintenance standpoint on keeping a righteous code.

Radrook · Nov 9, 2016

Uber Genius said:
"Blotted out" is associated with not persevering in Christ, and has no association to sin generally.

If this were the case then Galatians would have to be thrown out. Eph 2 at least, Romans 5-8, and all of Hebrews would hit the trash pile as hopelessly contradictory.

One of the challenges to inferring that Judas was "Saved" is that it strains soteriology. That is we see salvation being inextricably linked to Christ's work on the cross. The law is fulfilled by him on Calvary, not a moment before. In fact until the spirit descends and baptizes the disciples they are not technically, saved.

So the analogy is a false one with regards to Judas' salvation. That said, he did operate in the same power of the Spirit that the other disciples and the 70 did. He commanded demons, and healed the sick. Which is a lot more than most of us Christians have done.

I like the idea of your post but would reframe it as an Old Covenant example of the need for perseverance.

Also, I would give no place for someone to misinterpret salvation as having to do initially or from a maintenance standpoint on keeping a righteous code.

If he indeed performed the miracles you describe by means of Holy Spirit himself then that seems to make his treachery and thievery even less excusable.

Uber Genius · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so.

In Rev. 3:5 Jesus promises that he will not blot out the "overcomer." That is the key now to understand what the context renders. We are at the end of the judgement by Jesus of the various churches.

If one equivocates "overcomer" with "believer," well ... problem solved.

But wait, wouldn't that make the promise to the overcomer is an empty one unless the possibility exists that such blotting out could occur?

Jesus gives a warning to the churches, that he already knows doesn't apply to them? Wow, now that is a tricky.

While I grant your aversion to point 10 in the OP's thread as it seems to suggest we maintain our salvation through works, which is certainly false, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We are more free to examine the scriptures without the classifications and labels and arguments to authority than our predecessors were.

Suppose it is the case that the very thing that brought me into relationship with Christ, my faith, is no longer in Christ?

What if I reject the things I believed and likewise reject his gift of salvation?

Now before you answer I want to divorce that questions from the other aspects of salvation such as are construed in the TULIP acronym.

Is it possible that a person can reject Christ after being a Christian? What then?

Uber Genius · Nov 9, 2016

Radrook said:
If he indeed performed the miracles you describe by means of Holy Spirit himself then that seems to make his treachery and thievery even less excusable.

Indeed.

But then when asked, I tell people I am most like Judas.

After so many decades of watching my friends and family crucified by Romans, and finally meeting the messiah, who had been promised to the Jews as a delivering king (delivering them from both Roman and the Herodian rule), seeing him walk on water, and command the seas, kick demonic butt, followed by raising people from the dead, hearing him say, "I came to die as a sacrificial lamb, and my kingdom is not of this world," well... heck yea I would abandon him.

After all I want my war!

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

Uber Genius said:
"Blotted out" is associated with not persevering in Christ, and has no association to sin generally.

If this were the case then Galatians would have to be thrown out. Eph 2 at least, Romans 5-8, and all of Hebrews would hit the trash pile as hopelessly contradictory.

One of the challenges to inferring that Judas was "Saved" is that it strains soteriology. That is we see salvation being inextricably linked to Christ's work on the cross. The law is fulfilled by him on Calvary, not a moment before. In fact until the spirit descends and baptizes the disciples they are not technically, saved.

So the analogy is a false one with regards to Judas' salvation. That said, he did operate in the same power of the Spirit that the other disciples and the 70 did. He commanded demons, and healed the sick. Which is a lot more than most of us Christians have done.

I like the idea of your post but would reframe it as an Old Covenant example of the need for perseverance.

Also, I would give no place for someone to misinterpret salvation as having to do initially or from a maintenance standpoint on keeping a righteous code.

I disagree with your statements very strongly, and there is so much I can show from scripture that all OT saints were saved and born again and have Christ in them that it would take literally 800 pages to reveal this.

All of them were saved by the work Christ would do in time and God saw their faith and they were born again by the word of God, this is the spirit of Christ that is in them. Jesus said in John 15, that no one can do anything unless they are in him and he in them. In matthew 10 when Jesus called his 12 disciples, and sent them out as apostles and gave them power to cast out deals calling them his sheep sent to the LOST sheep. This should be enough to shatter the erroneous view that none were saved before the cross.

I am not saying that any can be saved without the cross in time. That is the salvation, but the work of Christ on the cross in time purchased the free gift that came upon every man, This free gift is the seed, word of God the truth in them, the Spirit of Christ in them, the True Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus said in John 17 that "none of them is lost , but the son of perdition"

This shows clearly that before the cross they were saved.

also Jesus said before the cross "this day salvation is come to this house". and he said he was also a child of Araham.

I think soon I am going to have to create a post about the OT saints salvation and the new birth on the OT. This seems to be greatly misunderstood by some, though not by all, for many ministers and theologians agree that OT saints were saved, and the same way we are.

Like I said I have many many many verses that I can draw from. Hopefully we can discuss some of them in time.

I would also say as Paul said that if ANY man ( old or new testament men) hath not the Spirit of Christ he is NONE OF HIS.

OT prophets had the Sprit of Christ in them as we read in 1 Peter 1.

Uber Genius · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus said in John 15, that no one can do anything unless they are in him and he in them

LoveofTruth said:
I am not saying that any can be saved without the cross in time

LoveofTruth said:
This shows clearly that before the cross they were saved.

So this is the old playground equivocation game, right?

Kid calls another kid a "loser" that kid replies, "a loser is a drip, a drip is a drop, a drop is rain, rain is nature, nature is beautiful, thank you for the compliment."

I am completely lost as to how any view could be possibly falsified given the exegetic method you have just deployed to prove that Judas must have been saved.

You are taking passages out of context (proof-texting), ignoring figures of speech "In Him" needs deep analysis not assumption, inserting annotations on the fly, to produce this great ad hoc description...that probably would be as unintelligible to a first-century reader as it is to me.

1. Exegete not eisogete
2. Let context drive exegesis
3. Gain biblical theological understanding before systematics (especially with soteriology)
4. post modernism if self-refuting (i.e. there is meaning in the text and no one except the author is allowed to modify that meaning)

SeventyOne · Nov 9, 2016

Uber Genius said:
In Rev. 3:5 Jesus promises that he will not blot out the "overcomer." That is the key now to understand what the context renders. We are at the end of the judgement by Jesus of the various churches.

If one equivocates "overcomer" with "believer," well ... problem solved.

But wait, wouldn't that make the promise to the overcomer is an empty one unless the possibility exists that such blotting out could occur?

Jesus gives a warning to the churches, that he already knows doesn't apply to them? Wow, now that is a tricky.

While I grant your aversion to point 10 in the OP's thread as it seems to suggest we maintain our salvation through works, which is certainly false, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We are more free to examine the scriptures without the classifications and labels and arguments to authority than our predecessors were.

Suppose it is the case that the very thing that brought me into relationship with Christ, my faith, is no longer in Christ?

What if I reject the things I believed and likewise reject his gift of salvation?

Now before you answer I want to divorce that questions from the other aspects of salvation such as are construed in the TULIP acronym.

Is it possible that a person can reject Christ after being a Christian? What then?

No, it is not possible that someone can reject Christ after being born again. One who belongs to Him, literally belongs to Him. We've been redeemed, or bought for a price, and we are no longer the owners over ourselves. We aren't in some engagement relationship with Him, but rather we are legally and fully adopted into His family as sons. We are created again into a new creature, and given a new nature free from the bondage of sin. We become justified and declared righteous before Him forever

What you describe is someone taking Jesus out on a trial basis, and then returning him to the dealer if they aren't satisfied, or someone who is not justified, who through an act of disobedience can walk away. But someone newly created, dead to the Law, and eternally justified cannot walk away, if not only for the mere fact they will not walk away.

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
No, it is not possible that someone can reject Christ after being born again. One who belongs to Him, literally belongs to Him. We've been redeemed, or bought for a price, and we are no longer the owners over ourselves. We aren't in some engagement relationship with Him, but rather we are legally and fully adopted into His family as sons. We are created again into a new creature, and given a new nature free from the bondage of sin. We become justified and declared righteous before Him forever

What you describe is someone taking Jesus out on a trial basis, and then returning him to the dealer if they aren't satisfied, or someone who is not justified, who through an act of disobedience can walk away. But someone newly created, dead to the Law, and eternally justified cannot walk away, if not only for the mere fact they will not walk away.

When the prodigal son was in His fathers house he was alive and a son, when he left the house he was dead and lost, when he came home he was alive again, and found

Job8 · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

If indeed Judas was saved, Christ would not have called him "the son of perdition", a term which is also used for the Antichrist (whose eternal destiny is Hell).

So Judas did not lose something he did not have to begin with, and nobody loses their salvation. That is the false doctrine, not the eternal security of the believer.

SeventyOne · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
When the prodigal son was in His fathers house he was alive and a son, when he left the house he was dead and lost, when he came home he was alive again, and found

The prodigal son was always a son of the father, no matter where he went, no matter what he did. I had a rebellious son myself at one point, but no matter what he did, where he went, how much he screamed, how many lies he told to other people, how little we got along, he always remained my son.

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

Uber Genius said:
So this is the old playground equivocation game, right?

No not at all, these things are not a game to me, some might see these things as a game but I don't. We must be sober grave temperate, and avoid foolish jesting as we see in scripture.

Uber Genius said:
Kid calls another kid a "loser" that kid replies, "a loser is a drip, a drip is a drop, a drop is rain, rain is nature, nature is beautiful, thank you for the compliment."

what? not sure what your talking about.

My arguments are rightly dividing scripture. If jesus says this day salvation is come to this house. Then that day salvation came to that house. If jesus say all 12 apostles were "HIS", we can safely say they are not the devils, any of them at that time. If jesus says he send them (all 12) to the lost sheep as sheep, then we can assume they are saved and his sheep. And jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep. If jesus gave all 12 power to cast out devils. We can safely assume that none of those were devils at that time. If jesus says that no man can do anything unless they are in him and he in them, we can safely s=assume they were in Christ or they could do nothing.

Uber Genius said:
I am completely lost as to how any view could be possibly falsified given the exegetic method you have just deployed to prove that Judas must have been saved.

It is very clear to Christians who walk in the anointing according to scripture.

If Jesus says they are not lost ( before the cross) in John 17 then they were not lost. Only one became lost and fell by transgression and that was Judas. But at one time jesus said to the father : thine they WERE (past tense)" and thou gavest them to me". Clearly they all belonged to the father before being given to jesus

we know that the OT saints ( notice the word saints) all ate the same spiritual meat and drink we eat and drink of for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ , 1 Cor 10:1-3 etc.

the only words I need to show that Judas was saved and in Christ and belonged to Christ is Matthew 10 where Jesus said he called unto him "HIS twelve disciples. These were "HIS", not the evils. For any to say they were not his or 1q were his and not Judas is not according to the text and distorts the text. It does not say "he called unto him HIS 11 ( and one devil) ", no it says he called unto him
HIS" twelve disciples. He also ordained the 12 and sent the 12 out and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep. I would hope this this clear to the unbiased Christian in the anointing.

Uber Genius said:
You are taking passages out of context (proof-texting), ignoring figures of speech "In Him" needs deep analysis not assumption, inserting annotations on the fly, to produce this great ad hoc description...that probably would be as unintelligible to a first-century reader as it is to me.

No it is not out of context. To be in Christ is a spiritual truth that none can know of unless they are in Christ as Jesus said the father has to reveal the Son and if men hear his voice ( inwardly) they are not to harden their hearts. God speaks in the hearts of all who hear His voice. His voice is the word sown, the seed the true Light that eightieth every an that cometh into the world. This is the great mystery HID from ages and form Generations, which is Christ n you the hope of glory.

There are some spiritual things in the New testament that some will wrest and distort and by doing so they won't see the spiritual inward reality.

God desires truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden part he shall make me to know wisdom.

Jesus Christ is really in believers. This expression of being in Christ and he in us is not a figure of speech or that we are simply in union with his cause etc. Unless a man is born again by the seed, which is the word of God sown in his heart he cannot be saved.

This inward life and reality is spoken of so much in the entire scriptures it would take hundred of pages to show the many examples.

Uber Genius said:
1. Exegete not eisogete

I do interpret scripture in the anointing and according to scripture and the right dividing of the text. You assume I place my own meaning on the text which is not in the text, but this is not right as I can easily show. Bring your changes and scriptures you think I am not interpreting right and i will show you why i am using the right interpretation.

When scripture teaches that God's word , the seed is sown in the heart. Do we have the right to interpret that as anything but an inward reality in the heart of man. Can we say that this is not an inward work? Does God work in believers and give then inward life or does he simply work outside them and around them?

God worth in you both to will and to do.

God looks on the inward man.

Uber Genius said:
2. Let context drive exegesis

In John 15 Jesus is talking about the vine and branches and those in him and those not abiding in the one (or in him) The context is about salvation and being in Christ. Is a branch not actually connected to the vine? or does the life of the vine not actually go into the branch? There is no other way to interpret this in the context.

Also when Jesus called unto him HIS twelve disciples and gave them power. This shows in context that they were HIS not the devils and he sent them out with actual power, not just an assumed power and life.

Uber Genius said:
3. Gain biblical theological understanding before systematics (especially with soteriology)

As scripture shows clearly, no man can know the things of God unless the Spirit reveals them. We have no need that any man should teach us the same anointing teaches us all things. The new man in Christ is in the anointing and we listen for that word and the witness in ourself. Salvation is only in Christ and no man can know anything about God unless they are in Christ. Abraham would not be saved if he did not have the seed (Christ) in him. And he did as glassiness 3 speaks of. The seed of Abraham is the same seed all believers have which is Christ in them. These things are hidden from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babe. We don't come in excellency of speech and mans wisdom in such teachings.

Uber Genius said:
4. post modernism if self-refuting (i.e. there is meaning in the text and no one except the author is allowed to modify that meaning)

Who said anything about "Post modernism" I speak the truth in Christ , and the same truth spoken in times past. And the authour of scripture in all cases is God. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This is why no man can understand the spiritual things of God unless they are also in the spirit. And Paul and jesus and all the writers speak of deep spiritual things many times that many can misunderstand and misinterpret and wrest to their own destruction.

Consider this text,

"
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

No man should trust in mans wisdom and what they know naturally in regards to the things of God, They cannot know the things of God but by the Spirit of God, but consider these verses

"11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( 1 Cor 2:11-14 KJV)

"20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God" ( 1 Corinthians 1:20,21 KJV)

Luke 10:21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. 22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him."

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
The prodigal son was always a son of the father, no matter where he went, no matter what he did. I had a rebellious son myself at one point, but no matter what he did, where he went, how much he screamed, how many lies he told to other people, how little we got along, he always remained my son.

the angels that go to the lake of fire are still angels, the son can be a lost son. Just as jesus said go to the LOST sheep. These were not the found saved sheep, but still called sheep

and the father said of the son when he was lost that he was "DEAD". and alive again when he came home.

"
Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

when men depart from the living God they are dead and lost. I simply believe the word jesus spoke here. In context and as it is said. He was DEAD. Yet some say , "No he was not dead he was still alive and not lost.". They are not right according to Jesus parable. The Father said he was DEAD and LOST. And when he came home he was then ALIVE AGAIN and found. How much clearer do we need in context?

Paul warned the Galatians ( who had been saved and received the spirit) that when they went back under the law and works etc, they were fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing. He said to them he stood in doubt of them. This doesn't sound lie an eternal security teacher today. Some would say to Paul, perhaps "Paul don't say you stand in doubt of them" that is not assuring them, that sounds like they can be lost or are lost, But Paul said it. Paul also said he travailed in BIRTH AGAIN, until Christ be formed in them. If a man does not have Christ formed in him he is not a Christian. If he once was in Christ and departed he needs to be born again, again as Paul said.What the new birth is is the issue. It is a renewal in righteousness and true holiness after the image of him that created us. It is to be quicken by the word of God as we abide in that word. This word is the seed sown in the heart. The word of God came to the prophets and they spoke this forth. This is because they had the spirit of Christ in them 1 Peter 1

Very clear in scripture.

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

Job8 said:
If indeed Judas was saved, Christ would not have called him "the son of perdition", a term which is also used for the Antichrist (whose eternal destiny is Hell).

So Judas did not lose something he did not have to begin with, and nobody loses their salvation. That is the false doctrine, not the eternal security of the believer.

I disagree strongly and according to scripture. The son of perdition, is simply a expression used for a lost son of God. Jesus said in the same chapter that before he even called them to him for ministry they belonged to the father. He said thine they were" ( past tense) and thou gavest them to me. This shows at the beginning he belonged to Jesus and fell by transgression Acts 1. How do you fall if you are always fallen? How do you betray Jesus if you never had the trust of him and if you were never his familiar friend. But Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted. To betray means to once have the trust and go against it.

Jesus said at the beginning that Judas was "HIS" as a sheep sent to the lost sheep and given power to cast out devils.

If we use your argument that Judas was a child of the devil or similar to AntiChrist. Then you must look at Lucifer in the beginning of his ministry. He was perfect in all his ways and walked with God as a covering cherub. Beautiful and holy. Then iniquity was found in him and he fell and will fog to the lake of fire with other angels that followed after him. But at one time, in the beginning he was with God and created perfect. God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels after they fell. It was not God will that any should perish. Just as God did not want Judas to be lost and at one time he was not.

I suggest you read through some of the arguments in my post

also I strongly believe that eternal security is a false doctrine according to the scriptures. There are so many verses on that topic to show that a saved person can lose salvation and go to hell and the lake of fire that it would take all day to type them out.

SeventyOne · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
the angels that go to the lake of fire are still angels, the son can be a lost son. Just as jesus said go to the LOST sheep. These were not the found saved sheep, but still called sheep

and the father said of the son when he was lost that he was "DEAD". and alive again when he came home.

"
Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

when men depart from the living God they are dead and lost. I simply believe the word jesus spoke here. In context and as it is said. He was DEAD. Yet some say , "No he was not dead he was still alive and not lost.". They are not right according to Jesus parable. The Father said he was DEAD and LOST. And when he came home he was then ALIVE AGAIN and found. How much clearer do we need in context?

Paul warned the Galatians ( who had been saved and received the spirit) that when they went back under the law and works etc, they were fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing. He said to them he stood in doubt of them. This doesn't sound lie an eternal security teacher today. Some would say to Paul, perhaps "Paul don't say you stand in doubt of them" that is not assuring them, that sounds like they can be lost or are lost, But Paul said it. Paul also said he travailed in BIRTH AGAIN, until Christ be formed in them. If a man does not have Christ formed in him he is not a Christian. If he once was in Christ and departed he needs to be born again, again as Paul said.What the new birth is is the issue. It is a renewal in righteousness and true holiness after the image of him that created us. It is to be quicken by the word of God as we abide in that word. This word is the seed sown in the heart. The word of God came to the prophets and they spoke this forth. This is because they had the spirit of Christ in them 1 Peter 1

Very clear in scripture.

Angels were never adopted into the Fathers family through their relationship with Him and His Son. You are confusing an act of adoption with a label used to indicate a being directly created by God.

You're also reading way too much into a parable. Let's not forget that while the son was away feeding the pigs, the very time he was "dead", he mentioned heading back to his father's house. He always remained a son and his father remained his father.

I really hope you are able to abandon this works-salvation you keep fighting for at some point.

SeventyOne · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
The son of perdition, is simply a expression used for a lost son of God.

Chapter and verse, please?

You simply cannot just make this claim then build an argument on the false claim.

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
Angels were never adopted into the Fathers family through their relationship with Him and His Son. You are confusing an act of adoption with a label used to indicate a being directly created by God.

I never said angels were adopted into the family of God. They are already in the family of God. Similar perhaps to Adam and Even before they fell.

Believers will be as the angels of God and there are warnings about the angels to believers if they go similar. This is very obvious. We see them being in a high place with God and still falling, so this is a warning to all who would do similar even though they are in a heavenly places in Christ.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

"Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

Notice here that the angels are HIS angels, and he sent them. These angels belong to God. To be in this is to be in the Light and life of Christ.The apostles were HIS disciples, apostles sent ones by him, ordained ( called and chosen) and that was all twelve. How much clearer do you need?

"Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him..."

Notice that HIS angels are HOLY. To be holy is to be in God. They cannot be HOLY without God and being in the life and light and truth of God. Angels that didn't fall are "of God". Paul calls believers
of God" also.

Satan was once in the truth of God and fell and then iniquity was found in him and he abode ( remained not in the truth). This shows that he was once in Christ in the truth. believers are said to be in Christ and in the truth. Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not inthe truth,..."

When The devil was first crated he was perfect in all his ways and walked with God. This shows clearly that a being can be in the truth and not abide in the truth and go away from God and in doing so fall and end up in the lake of fire one day.

Angels can be good or evil

"
Psalm 78:49
He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The clear warning is if God speared not the angels that sinned then take heed if he spare not you also if you abide not in the faith and in the truth.

We do not depart from God by works so much, but through an evil heart of unbelief (Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

SeventyOne said:
You're also reading way too much into a parable. Let's not forget that while the son was away feeding the pigs, the very time he was "dead", he mentioned heading back to his father's house. He always remained a son and his father remained his father.

The angels that sinned were still angels, and yet they are going to the lake of fire.
'You miss the point that when the son was out of the fathers house the father said he was "dead". Not still alive as you imply. Yes a son can be a lost son or saved son. In some sense we are all Gods offspring Acts 17. And in Isaiah we read that of Israel specifically, they were all like sheep gone astray. yet not all will be in heaven. So some are lost SHEEP.

SeventyOne said:
I really hope you are able to abandon this works-salvation you keep fighting for at some point.

This is a classic attack and error of the eternal security camp. To try and make those who teach as my self fit into their works based salvation camp.

We are not saved by works of the flesh or works of the law that we do. it is by grace through faith we are saved. But Go's works on the cross and in us save us and if we do not abide in this work of God in us we are not justified.

Show me your faith without God's Sprit working in you and I'll show you my faith by God's Spirit working in me. As the body without the spirit is dead so faith without Christ in you working is dead.

God's works are always needed as we abide and endure and continue in the faith and continue in the grace unto the end.

LoveofTruth · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
Chapter and verse, please?

You simply cannot just make this claim then build an argument on the false claim.

"ἀπωλείας" (Strong 684) can mean "perdition", "loss", "destruction", "ruin",

son means "kinship , child"

Judas was a child of God or son of God as I have shown in many verses . He was a sheep of jesus sent to the lost sheep. This made him a son of God to be a sheep and have eternal life in him once. Perdition meaning ruin or loss etc. Shows he came to ruin and loss and destruction by his departing from God and by falling by transgression.

And as I showed in John 17, the same chapter where the son of perdition is quoted, Jesus said they all ( all 12) belonged to the father in the past. he said "thine they were and thou gavest them to me...

If you belonged to the father then you were a son.

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;..."( John 17:6 KJV)

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,...how much more shall they call them of his household?" ( Matthew 10:1,25 KJV)

miknik5 · Nov 9, 2016

SeventyOne said:
And what if as he was falling he fell through time and space and became Steve Jobs and invented the iPhone and then burst right back to falling from that tree and dying on the rocks below?

Who could know if he did or not?

HE didn't.

ToBeLoved · Nov 9, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

I don't think that this verse says that we will be angels in heaven, I think it says we will not marry like the angels in heaven do not marry.

Your reading a lot into the verse.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

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