Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[ToBeLoved]

What if Judas had a change of heart right after he stepped off the platform, and hung there in regret, begging God to forgive him for what had just taken place -which he could not break free from?

...If his dying words were genuine repentance, would God not forgive him?

Since Jesus knows the beginning from the end, I would think that if Judas had repented or if Jesus knew that Judas would repent than I don't think He would have called Judas lost and a son of perdition. Because Jesus is still God. And man, but still God.

 

[SeventyOne]

Seriously though, what if?

Would God forgive him if he repented hanging there?

Who could know if he did or not?

And what if as he was falling he fell through time and space and became Steve Jobs and invented the iPhone and then burst right back to falling from that tree and dying on the rocks below?

Who could know if he did or not?

 

[ewq1938]

And what if as he was falling he fell through time and space and became Steve Jobs and invented the iPhone and then burst right back to falling from that tree and dying on the rocks below?

Too soon...

 

[Landon Caeli]

And what if as he was falling he fell through time and space and became Steve Jobs and invented the iPhone and then burst right back to falling from that tree and dying on the rocks below?

Who could know if he did or not?

How is that possible? Are you suggesting that repentance before death is equally impossible?

...Is there a specified time period that must pass before forgiveness is granted by God? Or what.

 

[SeventyOne]

How is that possible? Are you suggesting that repentance before death is equally impossible?

...Is there a specified time period that must pass before forgiveness is granted by God? Or what.

No, I'm saying such speculation is worthless because the answer can never be known.

 

[Landon Caeli]

No, I'm saying such speculation is worthless because the answer can never be known.

...Which is why it's important that Christians don't make a practice of speculating anothers salvation altogether -it can never be known.

With the special case of Judas though, the scriptures speak on it because of the major role he played.

 

[SeventyOne]

...Which is why it's important that Christians don't make a practice of speculating anothers salvation altogether -it can never be known.

With the special case of Judas though, the scriptures speak on it because of the major role he played.

Well, yeah, it does. It says he's a son of perdition and a devil, and in the end, Satan had entered him. Adding repentance to that is the actual speculation here, following it through to the end of him being a devil is not as speculative because nothing needs to be added to the text to get to that conclusion.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Well, yeah, it does. It says he's a son of perdition and a devil, and in the end, Satan had entered him. Adding repentance to that is the actual speculation here, following it through to the end of him being a devil is not as speculative because nothing needs to be added to the text to get to that conclusion.

Yeah, I know.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Seriously though, what if?

Would God forgive him if he repented hanging there?

Who could know if he did or not?

Jesus said he was lost in John 17 and he had his name blotted out of the book of the living and no longer written with the righteous in that book Psalms 69, quoted in part in Acts 1

and Jesus said it was better if he was never born

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 13:10 through John 13:11 say otherwise

"should betray him" future tense. This was near the end of Jesus ministry, at the beginning Judas was a sheep sent to the Lost sheep and Jesus called all twelve as "HIS" disciples and apostles, and he ordained all 12. as clear as it get iIbelieve

 

[Radrook]

Seriously though, what if?

Would God forgive him if he repented hanging there?

Who could know if he did or not?

Just so you no that his dangling on that branch, if indeed there was any dangling at all was very brief. Repentance? Well, the Bible does speak of God offering forgiveness based on Christ's sacrifice to people who are repentant and I don't see why Judas should be any exception to the rule. However, that requires a deep searching of his motives for feeling remorse in order to determine if he qualifies for forgiveness or not. It also demands a deep and through evaluation of his culpability. Many persons are guilty of crimes but when one examines their background one finds that such individuals are victims of circumstances, such as sinful genetic predispositions, flawed upbringing, or defective socialization, emotional instability, which led then inexorably down that path of perdition. So that thorough evaluation of all relevant factors in relation to Judas only God himself could do.

However, if indeed there are prophecies which point out that Judas is lost beyond redemption then he had been thoroughly evaluated even before he was born and found to be unforgivable. The scriptures provided by other posters above seem to indicate that this is indeed the case.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"should betray him" future tense. This was near the end of Jesus ministry, at the beginning Judas was a sheep sent to the Lost sheep and Jesus called all twelve as "HIS" disciples and apostles, and he ordained all 12. as clear as it get iIbelieve

I think that Jesus needed to let time play it out, meaning that one could not have found Judas guilty of doing something before that event had taken place (as far as time is concerned). If Jesus would have singled Judas out before, than how would that have been fair in that Judas had to make that choice to give over Jesus and betray Him with a kiss.

Now please give the verses that show that Judas was sent to the lost sheep? Because I don't see where he was.

 

[ToBeLoved]

However, if indeed there are prophecies which point out that Judas is lost beyond redemption then he had been thoroughly evaluated even before he was born and found to be unforgivable. The scriptures provided by other posters above seem to indicate that this is indeed the case.

Why would you say this. Jesus told the disciples the night before that one of them would betray Him and Judas did. It happened. Judas chose what he wanted to do. Even after Jesus was able to prophecy that it would happen. And Judas did the deed.

So how is that he was evaluated before he was born and found unforgivable?

 

[Radrook]

Why would you say this. Jesus told the disciples the night before that one of them would betray Him and Judas did. It happened. Judas chose what he wanted to do. Even after Jesus was able to prophecy that it would happen. And Judas did the deed.

So how is that he was evaluated before he was born and found unforgivable?

Aren't there scriptures which speak specifically of his betrayal? Was God unaware of the condition of the heart of the one who would be involved? Aren't there scriptures which indicate that he was?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Aren't there scriptures which speak specifically of his betrayal? Was God unaware of the condition of the heart of the one who would be involved? Aren't there scriptures which indicate that he was?

Why don't you tell me? I have referenced the scriptures that make me feel the way I do. Do you not also have scripture you are referencing?

 

[Radrook]

Why would you say this. Jesus told the disciples the night before that one of them would betray Him and Judas did. It happened. Judas chose what he wanted to do. Even after Jesus was able to prophecy that it would happen. And Judas did the deed.

So how is that he was evaluated before he was born and found unforgivable?

Jesus’ prayer when Jesus identifies Judas Iscariot as the only “son of destruction” in John 17

The Son of Man will go as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had never been born.” Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus replied, “You have said it yourself.” (Matthew 26-24-25) (Matthew singles out Judas as the disciple that asks Jesus this question.


Judah’s lack of faith in Jesus as the Messiah can be seen by his attitude when Jesus is anointed with expensive ointments by Mary Magdeline. He considers it a waste. Why? Because he was a thief.

Then Mary took three quarters of a pound of expensive aromatic oil from pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus. She then wiped his feet dry with her hair. (Now the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfumed oil.) But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was going to betray him) said, “Why wasn’t this oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?” (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box, he used to steal what was put into it.) So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. She has kept it for the day of my burial. (John 12:3-7)


Here we have a man who believed Jesus unworthy of being anointed with expensive oil. Why? Because he obviously did not consider Jesus anything special or worthy of such adoration or respect. Instead he believed that his need for money to spend on who knows what? was of greater importance. Are we to believe that God did not know that the one who would betray his Son was to be a thief who would have no appreciation for his Son despite having personally observed the miracles that his Son Jesus had performed right in front of his eyes?

What indeed caused Judas to totally ignore the clear evidence of God’s Holy Spirit at work via Jesus-even to the point of the resurrection of the dead as he did twice in the case of Lazarus and the widow's son? Impelled him to ignore the curing of the leprous and the expulsion of demons from the chronically demonically possessed so as to nonchallantly tag Jesus as unworthy of being anointed with expensive oils?

Was it his sharing in the Pharisaic belief and his support of the accusation that Jesus performed such deeds with the aid of the Devil? We are told that all sins are forgiven except sins against the Holy Spirit. Judas seems to have shared that sin with the Pharisees.

Matthew 12:31 ►
New International Version
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I think that Jesus needed to let time play it out, meaning that one could not have found Judas guilty of doing something before that event had taken place (as far as time is concerned). If Jesus would have singled Judas out before, than how would that have been fair in that Judas had to make that choice to give over Jesus and betray Him with a kiss.

Now please give the verses that show that Judas was sent to the lost sheep? Because I don't see where he was.

Here are the verses to consider


"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples...Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;...These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:" (Matthew 10:1-16 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus’ prayer when Jesus identifies Judas Iscariot as the only “son of destruction” in John 17

The Son of Man will go as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had never been born.” Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus replied, “You have said it yourself.” (Matthew 26-24-25) (Matthew singles out Judas as the disciple that asks Jesus this question.


Judah’s lack of faith in Jesus as the Messiah can be seen by his attitude when Jesus is anointed with expensive ointments by Mary Magdeline. He considers it a waste. Why? Because he was a thief.

Then Mary took three quarters of a pound of expensive aromatic oil from pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus. She then wiped his feet dry with her hair. (Now the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfumed oil.) But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was going to betray him) said, “Why wasn’t this oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?” (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box, he used to steal what was put into it.) So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. She has kept it for the day of my burial. (John 12:3-7)


Here we have a man who believed Jesus unworthy of being anointed with expensive oil. Why? Because he obviously did not consider Jesus anything special or worthy of such adoration or respect. Instead he believed that his need for money to spend on who knows what? was of greater importance. Are we to believe that God did not know that the one who would betray his Son was to be a thief who would have no appreciation for his Son despite having personally observed the miracles that his Son Jesus had performed right in front of his eyes?

What indeed caused Judas to totally ignore the clear evidence of God’s Holy Spirit at work via Jesus-even to the point of the resurrection of the dead as he did twice in the case of Lazarus and the widow's son? Impelled him to ignore the curing of the leprous and the expulsion of demons from the chronically demonically possessed so as to nonchallantly tag Jesus as unworthy of being anointed with expensive oils?

Was it his sharing in the Pharisaic belief and his support of the accusation that Jesus performed such deeds with the aid of the Devil? We are told that all sins are forgiven except sins against the Holy Spirit. Judas seems to have shared that sin with the Pharisees.

Near the end of Jesus ministry we see Judas beginning to FALL by transgression. But not at the beginning in Matthew 10 etc.

We see Lucifer created perfect in all His ways and he walked with God and was a covering Cherub ( at the beginning when he was created), then later he fell and iniquity was found in him. and eventually he will go to the lake of fire.

Just because God knew Lucifer was going to go to the lake of fire, does not mean in any way that he wanted that or forced him to sin etc. At one time he was with God and IN THE TRUTH but he abode not in the truth and fell. Judas is similar.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus’ prayer when Jesus identifies Judas Iscariot as the only “son of destruction” in John 17

The Son of Man will go as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for him if he had never been born.” Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus replied, “You have said it yourself.” (Matthew 26-24-25) (Matthew singles out Judas as the disciple that asks Jesus this question.


Judah’s lack of faith in Jesus as the Messiah can be seen by his attitude when Jesus is anointed with expensive ointments by Mary Magdeline. He considers it a waste. Why? Because he was a thief.

Then Mary took three quarters of a pound of expensive aromatic oil from pure nard and anointed the feet of Jesus. She then wiped his feet dry with her hair. (Now the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfumed oil.) But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was going to betray him) said, “Why wasn’t this oil sold for three hundred silver coins and the money given to the poor?” (Now Judas said this not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money box, he used to steal what was put into it.) So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. She has kept it for the day of my burial. (John 12:3-7)


Here we have a man who believed Jesus unworthy of being anointed with expensive oil. Why? Because he obviously did not consider Jesus anything special or worthy of such adoration or respect. Instead he believed that his need for money to spend on who knows what? was of greater importance. Are we to believe that God did not know that the one who would betray his Son was to be a thief who would have no appreciation for his Son despite having personally observed the miracles that his Son Jesus had performed right in front of his eyes?

What indeed caused Judas to totally ignore the clear evidence of God’s Holy Spirit at work via Jesus-even to the point of the resurrection of the dead as he did twice in the case of Lazarus and the widow's son? Impelled him to ignore the curing of the leprous and the expulsion of demons from the chronically demonically possessed so as to nonchallantly tag Jesus as unworthy of being anointed with expensive oils?

Was it his sharing in the Pharisaic belief and his support of the accusation that Jesus performed such deeds with the aid of the Devil? We are told that all sins are forgiven except sins against the Holy Spirit. Judas seems to have shared that sin with the Pharisees.

What you said is that it is designated and he (Judas) is found guilty before he is born.

None of your verses show that. So then is your statement incorrect?

 

[Radrook]

Near the end of Jesus ministry we see Judas beginning to FALL by transgression. But not at the beginning in Matthew 10 etc.

We see Lucifer created perfect in all His ways and he walked with God and was a covering Cherub ( at the beginning when he was created), then later he fell and iniquity was found in him. and eventually he will go to the lake of fire.

Just because God knew Lucifer was going to go to the lake of fire, does not mean in any way that he wanted that or forced him to sin etc. At one time he was with God and IN THE TRUTH but he abode not in the truth and fell. Judas is similar.

I never claimed that God forced Judas to do anything.