Boxing and being a Christian?

Radrook · Mar 22, 2016

I see many boxers claiming Christianity and even attributing their success to God.
I have always seen this as tantamount to a gladiator claiming that God was involved in his success. Does anyone else here see the incongruity between claiming Christianity and being a boxer?

Sketcher · Mar 23, 2016

A significant difference between a boxer and a gladiator is the gladiator was expected to kill his opponent, while the boxer is merely expected to fight his opponent. Deaths happen in the boxing ring, but they are not very common, the expectation is that both fighters will live after the match. Since boxing is not lethal, that strips some major sins away that the gladiator can't really avoid. Furthermore, boxing provides the opportunity for clear displays of good sportsmanship after the match has concluded - congratulating each other, giving the other fighter credit, even hugging. I fail to see such displays as anything other than positive.

ewq1938 · Mar 23, 2016

Radrook said:
I see many boxers claiming Christianity and even attributing their success to God.
I have always seen this as tantamount to a gladiator claiming that God was involved in his success. Does anyone else here see the incongruity between claiming Christianity and being a boxer?

Do you feel the same way about karate, football and hockey?

Radrook · Mar 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Do you feel the same way about karate, football and hockey?

No because the primary goal in those others you mentioned isn't to render your opponent unconscious or to do him potentially deadly bodily harm.

ewq1938 · Mar 23, 2016

Radrook said:
No because the primary goal in those others you mentioned isn't to render your opponent unconscious or to do him potentially deadly bodily harm.

Actually it is. The only different is that football and hockey have a point system set up as part of an overall game where karate and boxing just is a one on one "fight" but in all of them there is intentional violence meant to harm someone else.
If you don't think a football team doesn't want to injure the other quarterback then you don't know professional football very well.

Radrook · Mar 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Actually it is. The only different is that football and hockey have a point system set up as part of an overall game where karate and boxing just is a one on one "fight" but in all of them there is intentional violence meant to harm someone else.
If you don't think a football team doesn't want to injure the other quarterback then you don't know professional football very well.

You are 100% right. Violence is definitely an important component in both football and hockey and maybe that is something which a Christian has to consider seriously before engaging in those sports.

ewq1938 · Mar 23, 2016

Radrook said:
You are 100% right. Violence is definitely an important component in both football and hockey and maybe that is something which a Christian has to consider seriously before engaging in those sports.

I don't know if there is any sin in the sports though. I suppose one player could have sinful intentions while another just wants to do what he is supposed to do.

Fighting definitely is a cruder type of sport but they are adults and chose it.

Radrook · Mar 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
I don't know if there is any sin in the sports though. I suppose one player could have sinful intentions while another just wants to do what he is supposed to do.

Fighting definitely is a cruder type of sport but they are adults and chose it.

I once associated with a brother in the faith who was an ardent fan of boxing and whenever he was told that watching boxing was sinful he would say that they were getting paid for it and no one was forcing them to do it. LOL!

tatteredsoul · Mar 23, 2016

Radrook said:
I see many boxers claiming Christianity and even attributing their success to God.
I have always seen this as tantamount to a gladiator claiming that God was involved in his success. Does anyone else here see the incongruity between claiming Christianity and being a boxer?

Boxing as a sport is a blood sport, and so it would be similar to a gladiator claiming God was involved in their success on the surface. (Remember, most gladiators were slaves and forced to fight. So, if they won and claimed God helped, it may be very genuine. Think Daniel in the furnace...) Most all "sports" get their origin from Roman, Greek, Mayan, Egyptian, etc. blood sports for human sacrifice. Someone (or people) would die in the "games" - that was the point. The "game" itself was a ploy to garner public support. (Notice how stadiums are even modelled after the Coliseum, for example - or how baseball fields utilize the same sacred geometry "right angle/perfect square 'diamond'" shape.)

Boxing as a martial art for self defense is not incongruent, in my opinion. It is common sense to know how to defend yourself: everyone knows a defensive art, and everyone should practice those arts in order to be prepared for an enemy.

I am a martial artist, and I know a lot of martial artists who are Christian. We don't use God as a crutch or sound bite when we win tournaments/sparring matches/fights.

Radrook · Mar 23, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Boxing as a sport is a blood sport, and so it would be similar to a gladiator claiming God was involved in their success on the surface. (Remember, most gladiators were slaves and forced to fight. So, if they won and claimed God helped, it may be very genuine. Think Daniel in the furnace...) Most all "sports" get their origin from Roman, Greek, Mayan, Egyptian, etc. blood sports for human sacrifice. Someone (or people) would die in the "games" - that was the point. The "game" itself was a ploy to garner public support. (Notice how stadiums are even modelled after the Coliseum, for example - or how baseball fields utilize the same sacred geometry "right angle/perfect square 'diamond'" shape.)

Boxing as a martial art for self defense is not incongruent, in my opinion. It is common sense to know how to defend yourself: everyone knows a defensive art, and everyone should practice those arts in order to be prepared for an enemy.

I am a martial artist, and I know a lot of martial artists who are Christian. We don't use God as a crutch or sound bite when we win tournaments/sparring matches/fights.

Thanks for the feedback:

Being trained in Pai Lum White Dragon Kung Fu myself, I agree that it is good to know how to resist a physical attack. In fact, that is the primary reason way I took the training. I also boxed for a while. So I am not in any way saying that we should feel obligated as Christians to be at the mercy of potential enemies and neither do I believe that God wants us to feel that way.

BTW
Good point about an enslaved gladiator which might have received aid.
But did early Christians fight when they were thrown into the arena? The impression I get is that they sang psalms and prayed.

tatteredsoul · Mar 23, 2016

Radrook said:
But did early Christians fight when they were thrown into the arena? The impression I get is that they sang psalms and prayed.

Some may have sang and prayed as a show of faith, or hope. Many of those probably died also (but, I don't think that invalidates their relationship/blessings with God.) In Daniel 11:33, some of the "wise ones" or "elect" or the "ones with the seal of God in their forehead (and right/dominant arm)" are going to suffer by sword, fire, captivity and spoil. Christ could have nuked the Roman soldier in his own footprint with His power, instead he healed the soldier. Other times, Christ was whipping people and flipping tables.

But, David also says that God taught his hands how to war, and how to use weapons - insinuating that self-defense and mercy are important. Indeed, martial artists are even taught that self-defense in the form of a martial art is mercy. The point is never to hurt or kill someone; the purpose is to stop the attacker with enough technique and marginal injury. (This is especially true in sparring; you can learn a lot from the people with whom you spar.)

I think the decision to fight, pray, or otherwise is an issue of discretion.

WolfGate · Mar 24, 2016

How do you feel about wrestling (not the pro stuff, what they do in schools and Olympics).

Radrook · Mar 24, 2016

WolfGate said:
How do you feel about wrestling (not the pro stuff, what they do in schools and Olympics).

Is it in harmony with loving neighbor as oneself?

Luke 6:3 (NIV)

Click to expand...

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

If it contradicts that principle in any way I don't see how to harmonize it with the Christian personality that we are told to assume. The principle involves not doing anything to our neighbor which we don't wish upon ourselves. Do we wish to be slammed against the ground? Do we like to lose? Do we like pain being inflicted and our lives threatened via serious injury? All these become relevant when we strive to apply that principle
which is part of being Christlike.

Other scriptures which Some Christians consider very relevant to the subject are these:

Mark 12:31 ESV

The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

John 15:12 ESV
“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Notice that Jesus went beyond the law by requiring that we love neighbor as he loved us. That means being willing to sacrifice our lives for others as he did for mankind.

Radrook · Mar 24, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
Some may have sang and prayed as a show of faith, or hope. Many of those probably died also (but, I don't think that invalidates their relationship/blessings with God.) In Daniel 11:33, some of the "wise ones" or "elect" or the "ones with the seal of God in their forehead (and right/dominant arm)" are going to suffer by sword, fire, captivity and spoil. Christ could have nuked the Roman soldier in his own footprint with His power, instead he healed the soldier. Other times, Christ was whipping people and flipping tables.

But, David also says that God taught his hands how to war, and how to use weapons - insinuating that self-defense and mercy are important. Indeed, martial artists are even taught that self-defense in the form of a martial art is mercy. The point is never to hurt or kill someone; the purpose is to stop the attacker with enough technique and marginal injury. (This is especially true in sparring; you can learn a lot from the people with whom you spar.)

I think the decision to fight, pray, or otherwise is an issue of discretion.

Well, it seems as if first century Christians believed it their duty to simply accept their fate as a necessary part of being a Christian. Of course today we have a totally different mindset among most who claim Christianity and persecution based on not being part of the world is virtually nonexistent except for the minority who take that admonition of not being part odf the world to heart as the first-century Christians did.
http://www.jaysromanhistory.com/romeweb/christns/chrslion.htm

roamer_1 · Mar 24, 2016

Radrook said:
The principle involves not doing anything to our neighbor which we don't wish upon ourselves. Do we wish to be slammed against the ground? Do we like to lose? Do we like pain being inflicted and our lives threatened via serious injury? All these become relevant when we strive to apply that principle
which is part of being Christlike.

I would rise against this particular line of thought - Let's turn it around:

Do we wish to be protected while we sleep? The father is the 'strong man of the house' - Doesn't he have an obligation to protect his wife and children from harm?

The Christian shopkeeper or land owner certainly has the right to protect his property from plundering...

Do we wish our cities to enjoy peace and protection from criminals? Should Christian towns be without policemen who must do violence to criminals?

Do we wish our nation to be protected from rogue nations and terrorists? Of course there is a place for a strong military - After all, Yeshua is also the general over all the armies of heaven... He knows well how to make war, and that is what he WILL do at the end of things.

As long as there are criminals willing to do violence, there must necessarily be good men willing to stand against it - which necessarily requires violence. Be that in the house, or the neighborhood, the city, county, or national level there is certainly a need for the warrior. It is these rough men that allow the pacifist the peace in which he practices.

Do not be confused - YHWH says that where there is justice peace flourishes. Justice is a function of law, and law is a matter of defense against a criminal element. That defense requires of a necessity, the warrior.

And where there is the warrior, there will be war games, by necessity... That is how one practices for the eventual need.

Radrook · Mar 24, 2016

roamer_1 said:
I would rise against this particular line of thought - Let's turn it around:

Do we wish to be protected while we sleep? The father is the 'strong man of the house' - Doesn't he have an obligation to protect his wife and children from harm?

The Christian shopkeeper or land owner certainly has the right to protect his property from plundering...

Do we wish our cities to enjoy peace and protection from criminals? Should Christian towns be without policemen who must do violence to criminals?

Do we wish our nation to be protected from rogue nations and terrorists? Of course there is a place for a strong military - After all, Yeshua is also the general over all the armies of heaven... He knows well how to make war, and that is what he WILL do at the end of things.

As long as there are criminals willing to do violence, there must necessarily be good men willing to stand against it - which necessarily requires violence. Be that in the house, or the neighborhood, the city, county, or national level there is certainly a need for the warrior. It is these rough men that allow the pacifist the peace in which he practices.

Do not be confused - YHWH says that where there is justice peace flourishes. Justice is a function of law, and law is a matter of defense against a criminal element. That defense requires of a necessity, the warrior.

And where there is the warrior, there will be war games, by necessity... That is how one practices for the eventual need.

The principle is one to be applied in a general way and wasn't meant to mean that we should abdicate all our rights to protect ourselves against evildoers.

roamer_1 · Mar 24, 2016

Radrook said:
The principle is one to be applied in a general way and wasn't meant to mean that we should abdicate all our rights to protect ourselves against evildoers.

In that then, martial disciplines and martial contests find their legitimacy.

That being said, like any other thing, competitive contests can be taken too far, and become a distraction - even an idol.

American Football, as an example, is an offense to me - not the game in itself (which is fun as can be out behind the pens after rodeo practice), but rather, for the worship assigned to it by the typical American male.

Radrook · Mar 24, 2016

roamer_1 said:
In that then, martial disciplines and martial contests find their legitimacy.

That being said, like any other thing, competitive contests can be taken too far, and become a distraction - even an idol.

American Football, as an example, is an offense to me - not the game in itself (which is fun as can be out behind the pens after rodeo practice), but rather, for the worship assigned to it by the typical American male.

The question is should a Christian strive to feel that it is legitimate to earn a living bludgeoning another Christian unconscious. Years ago when Tyson bit off a piece of Holyfield's ear, Holyfield said that he felt like kicking Tyson but that he heard the Lord tell him not to do it. Instead he went in for the knockout.

BTW
I agree that certain activities if taken to the excessive can consume so much time that they become idolatrous.

fhansen · Mar 26, 2016

Radrook said:
I see many boxers claiming Christianity and even attributing their success to God.
I have always seen this as tantamount to a gladiator claiming that God was involved in his success. Does anyone else here see the incongruity between claiming Christianity and being a boxer?

Boxing's fine. Attributing success in it to God is off the wall.

Radrook · Mar 26, 2016

fhansen said:
Boxing's fine. Attributing success in it to God is off the wall.

Whether it can or can't be considered to be fine isn't the issue.

In what sense are you using:

off the wall

beyond the realm of acceptability or reasonableness:
markedly out of the ordinary; eccentric; bizarre:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/off--the--wall

Boxing and being a Christian?

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