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Luke17:37

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The 144K are selected from the 'vast multitude'. The multitude too big to count are all the true Christian people, who are gathered out of the nations soon after the Sixth Seal event. They are the Israel of God and are therefore divided into 12 'tribes' according to their individual characteristics.

The earth and heaven remain forever. The surface of the earth will be renewed after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1 and earth becomes heaven when God dwells there. Revelation 21:3

Revelation and other prophesies are clear: the Lord's people are gathered and go to live in all of the holy Land before the Return and the Mill reign. It is them who say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
The 144k are commissioned to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

Why do you say 'Jews'? It says 'children of Israel' and who are true Israelites? Christian people: Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:26-9

God has given us a lot of information about what He plans to happen. The prophesies about Jesus' first advent came true and we can expect those about the last days to be fulfilled literally.
Paul said in 1 Thess 5:4, that we who read the Bible should not be in the dark about our future. Those who are and worse, those who have been deceived by false teachings, may be so surprised and shocked by forthcoming events, they renounce their faith. Bad thinking!

Yeah, we don't agree, Keras.

I think it's clear that the 144,000 are specific Jewish believers in Jesus who are supernaturally protected from the plagues. I also believe it's also clear that the great multitude in the white robes are the Gentile and Jewish Christian martyrs from every nation, tribe and language who are killed for their faith during the Tribulation and their souls are waiting until God avenges their blood at His return.

The Jews are mostly blind today concerning the gospel (only about 1% of Jews say they are followers of Jesus), but God will bring about a revival in the very last days, so that 2/3 will be cut off and die and 1/3 of Jews will come to faith in Jesus and be refined (Zechariah 13:8-9), so all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-27). The Church is Gentile and Jewish, but many more Jews will come to Christ before He comes again. We are in the times of the Gentiles now, but sometime in the Tribulation (possibly the whole Tribulation), will be the times of the Jews where most salvations will be Jewish people.
 
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keras

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I think it's clear that the 144,000 are specific Jewish believers
The Jewish people themselves confirm that they are only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Also some Levites. The 144k are from all twelve tribes, the 10 Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations, to be gathered along with all those who are grafted in, soon after the Sixth Seal.
All Israel will be saved. Yes, far more than just the Jewish believers. Jesus said to the Jews: the Kingdom is taken away from you and given to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
That nation will be Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, they will occupy all of the holy Land and the Lord will protect and prosper them. Psalms 50:1-6, Psalms 69:35-36, Ezekiel 36:8-18
 
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Luke17:37

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The Jewish people themselves confirm that they are only from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Also some Levites. The 144k are from all twelve tribes, the 10 Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations, to be gathered along with all those who are grafted in, soon after the Sixth Seal.
All Israel will be saved. Yes, far more than just the Jewish believers. Jesus said to the Jews: the Kingdom is taken away from you and given to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
That nation will be Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, they will occupy all of the holy Land and the Lord will protect and prosper them. Psalms 50:1-6, Psalms 69:35-36, Ezekiel 36:8-18

So it sounds like you might be spiritualizing the Jewish people (that the Church has replaced Israel in prophecy?) and putting the peace in the land of Israel before Christ's return instead of during His thousand year bodily reign (Psalms 2, Psalms 72, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47, Ezekiel 48, Zechariah 14). Just because the Jews today don't know what tribe they are from (since the records were destroyed in A.D. 70) doesn't mean God doesn't know. There are Jewish blooded individuals who are currently (including my pastor/friend) or will be in the body of Christ, as promised by Zechariah 13:8-9 and Romans 11:25-27 and many other passages. I'm not Jewish but I have for a long time had a heart for the salvation of the Jews. I love how the Jewish roots of our faith speak to the fulfillment in the Messiah, Jesus. I don't like it when people denigrate the promises to the Jews (such as the land God promised them according to the borders of Genesis 15... see Isaiah 26, Isaiah 27, Ezekiel 47 and Ezekiel 48) and seek to spiritualize them to apply to a mostly Gentile Church.
 
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keras

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that the Church has replaced Israel in prophecy?)
The belief of Two People Two Promises is only held by those who must maintain that idea in order to have the Church be raptured to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation on earth. It is a false and un-Biblical theory. John 10:16, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6
The truth is, those who believe in God and have accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, are the true Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8 and now after so many generations have passed, it is proven that we all have at least some genetics from ancient Israel. And the Jews themselves are very mixed up genetically, as well.
So what I believe isn't replacement theology, but the fulfilment of God's plan to have a righteous people, who will soon gather and live in all of the holy Land, where they will at last, be as God always intended His people to be. His promises to the Patriarchs will come to fruition and His people will be His witnesses and the light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
 
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Luke17:37

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The belief of Two People Two Promises is only held by those who must maintain that idea in order to have the Church be raptured to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation on earth. It is a false and un-Biblical theory. John 10:16, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6
The truth is, those who believe in God and have accepted the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, are the true Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8 and now after so many generations have passed, it is proven that we all have at least some genetics from ancient Israel. And the Jews themselves are very mixed up genetically, as well.
So what I believe isn't replacement theology, but the fulfilment of God's plan to have a righteous people, who will soon gather and live in all of the holy Land, where they will at last, be as God always intended His people to be. His promises to the Patriarchs will come to fruition and His people will be His witnesses and the light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

I believe the Jewish people still have a future revival (up to 1/3 Jews) (Zechariah 13:8-9) and that the physical land of Israel will go to the promised borders (Genesis 15:18) when Christ returns and threshes the land (Isaiah 27:13). I believe this revival will happen when most of the Gentiles have already come to faith (or not) (Romans 11).

You can argue that, but I'm saying that you're sidelining the Jewish people if you don't believe in a future fulfillment of the salvation promise to the Jews (there are many Scriptures on this) or the land promise. We should be looking for their salvation and advancing it.

You should know by now that my conviction is of a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the Return of Christ.

Yes, I believe the Church is one and composed of Jews and Gentiles. But that doesn't negate the promise of the land or the promise that the Jews (in greater numbers) would turn in faith to Yeshua the Messiah.
 
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keras

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Luke 17, a very interesting prophecy is in Jeremiah 12:14 The Lord says: All those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land which I allotted to My people Israel as their holding; I shall uproot them and also I shall uproot Judah as well.
All of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed by the fire of the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5
Then, Jeremiah 12:15-16 but after I have uprooted them, [Judah] I will take pity on them and allow them back again, IF they learn the ways of My people. [Christians] .......only then will the Jews be allowed to re-join with My people.

This prophecy is about to be fulfilled, all the Ishmaelite peoples and the Jewish people as well, will either be killed or expelled from all of the holy Land. The new inhabitants will only be true Christians. All this will happen years before the Return of Jesus for His Mill reign. We know this from the many prophesies saying how the Lord will guide and protect those who call out to Him, in the same way as He did for the ancient Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:1-13
You should know by now that my conviction is of a post-tribulation resurrection-gathering at the Return of Christ.
I'm glad that you are not one who adds to scripture to make it say what you want it to say, as the rapture believers do with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, which tells us of the post trib gathering to where Jesus is: in Jerusalem.
That His people will gather before that event is well prophesied, but about half of them will be taken to a place of safety and it is them, plus the other survivors who refused the mark of the beast, who will be gathered at the Return. Matthew 24:30
 
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Luke17:37

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Luke 17, a very interesting prophecy is in Jeremiah 12:14 The Lord says: All those evil neighbors who have encroached onto the Land which I allotted to My people Israel as their holding; I shall uproot them and also I shall uproot Judah as well.
All of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed by the fire of the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5
Then, Jeremiah 12:15-16 but after I have uprooted them, [Judah] I will take pity on them and allow them back again, IF they learn the ways of My people. [Christians] .......only then will the Jews be allowed to re-join with My people.

This prophecy is about to be fulfilled, all the Ishmaelite peoples and the Jewish people as well, will either be killed or expelled from all of the holy Land. The new inhabitants will only be true Christians. All this will happen years before the Return of Jesus for His Mill reign. We know this from the many prophesies saying how the Lord will guide and protect those who call out to Him, in the same way as He did for the ancient Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:1-13

I'm glad that you are not one who adds to scripture to make it say what you want it to say, as the rapture believers do with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, which tells us of the post trib gathering to where Jesus is: in Jerusalem.
That His people will gather before that event is well prophesied, but about half of them will be taken to a place of safety and it is them, plus the other survivors who refused the mark of the beast, who will be gathered at the Return. Matthew 24:30

Keras, I don't understand how you come up with peace in the land of Israel prior to the return of Christ. The Lord Himself will bring peace when He comes to judge and reign.

Isaiah 26:12
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us.

(Isaiah 25-27 is about the end of the end of Tribulation, Return of Christ, and beginning of Jesus' thousand year reign on earth.)

Hosea 5:14-6:3
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”
6 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

They are destined to experience Tribulation like the rest of the earth, and it's their misery that drives some to faith.

Daniel 11 says that some countries will not be overthrown by this Antichrist figure. Specific exceptions include Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon (sounds like modern day Jordan). Also it says the Glorious Land (Israel, undoubtedly) will be invaded but it doesn't mean completely conquered. Personally I think verse 45 is talking about the sixth trumpet and bowl when the army crosses the Euphrates and assembles in the land of Israel at Armaggedon... just before Jesus comes back.

Daniel 11:41-45
41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

I think you're taking Scripture out of context in saying that Israel will experience peace (other than salvation to a sizable remnant) prior to the appearance of Jesus.

I don't call the sixth seal the day of wrath. It's not the end, its just before the scroll is open. They may think it is perhaps, and they may think they can hide in the rocks from the Lamb, but the wrath culminates when Jesus appears. By His Word He will slay those gathered in His land (Isaiah 27:13, Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:12-15) - and they can not escape.
 
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Biblewriter

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While it is interesting to try to understand the deep, symbolic parts of Bible prophecy. This is an exercise in futility if it is done without first considering that portion of end time prophecy that is explicitly stated in plain words. For if my interpretation of any part of scripture generates a conflict with anything explicitly stated in any other scripture, my interpretation is incorrect.
 
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keras

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Keras, I don't understand how you come up with peace in the land of Israel prior to the return of Christ. The Lord Himself will bring peace when He comes to judge and reign.
Yes, the best time of peace will be the Millennium reign of Jesus. But even that time will end in war. Revelation 20:7-9
You still don't realize that in order for God's original plan to have a righteous nation living in all of the holy Land, that area must first be cleared and cleansed, Deuteronomy 32:41-43, by the Sixth Seal fire from the sun and His people: all true Christian believers, will live there and will receive the amazing blessings of the Lord. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 37:29
Otherwise God will have failed to have a people there, who will be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 It also fulfils His promises to the Patriarchs.
Galatians 4:27-29 puts it perfectly clearly just who the people of God are, the true Israelites, who will receive His blessings.

There will be more trials and testing: a huge army will come down from the North, we must trust the Lord to save us. And He will: Joel 2:20, Ezekiel 38-39 Then the Leader of the One World Govt will come to Beulah and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty with them, Bad mistake, they should rely on the Lord, it will be the treaty of death. Isaiah 28:14-15
Daniel 11:32 tells about those who do keep their faith in God and those who don't. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 12:13-17 says what will happen to the 2 groups.
Then, after all that is prophesied takes place, the Lord Jesus will Return, destroy the armies assembled to kill Him, Revelation 16:13-14 & 16, chain up Satan and commence His Millennium reign.
 
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Luke17:37

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Yes, the ultimate time of peace will be the Millennium reign of Jesus. But even that time will end in war. Revelation 20:7-9
You still don't realize that in order for God's original plan to have a righteous nation living in all of the holy Land, that area must first be cleared and cleansed, Deuteronomy 32:41-43, and His people: all true Christian believers, will live there and will receive the amazing blessings of the Lord. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 37:29
Otherwise God will have failed to have a people there, who will be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 It also fulfils His promises to the Patriarchs.
Galatians 4:27-29 puts it perfectly clearly just who the people of God are, the true Israelites, who will receive His blessings.

There will be more trials and testing: a huge army will come down from the North, we must trust the Lord to save us. And He will: Joel 2:20, Ezekiel 38-39 Then the Leader of the One World Govt will come to Beulah and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty with them, Bad mistake, they should rely on the Lord, it will be the treaty of death. Isaiah 28:14-15
Daniel 11:32 tells about those who do keep their faith in God and those who don't. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 12:13-17 says what will happen to the 2 groups.
Then, after all that is prophesied takes place, the Lord Jesus will Return, destroy the armies assembled to kill Him, Revelation 16:13-14 & 16, chain up Satan and commence His Millennium reign.

I don't agree with you and really can't see where you get peace in Israel prior Jesus return. There were always be a remnant of believers until the day Christ comes, but Revelation (the Tribulation, specifically, from Revelation 6-18) is mostly about a bloodbath of Christians and the partial judgment of God's enemies until the day He returns to avenge His saints (Revelation 19).

During the Tribulation, the two witnesses will prophecy. Anguish (probably caused by the Tribulation) will encourage some Jews to seek God and turn to Christ (Hosea 5:14-6:3), then endure and await His return in faith... even when Jerusalem is being surrounded by the armies of the Antichrist. According to Zechariah 13:8-9, 2/3 of Jews will be cut off and die but 1/3 of them will turn to Christ in faith and be refined, so "all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-27). Then Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation.

I believe Jesus Himself will thresh the land (Isaiah 27:12) according to His promised borders (from the River Euphrates to the wadi of Egypt) as promised to Abraham in Genesis 15 (see also Ezekiel 47 and 48 which discuss the boundaries of Israel in the thousand years). He will reign in Jerusalem and all the nations will come up to Jerusalem to worship Him at the Feast of Tabernacles (see Zechariah 14).

I don't have any reason to believe that there are two Gog/Magog battles - according to Revelation 20, that happens after the thousand years have ended, after they've been living in peace for such a long time.
 
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Luke17:37

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Yes the 'woman', that is: righteous Israel will be taken out of the holy Land to a place of safety on earth during the 1260 day G.T. Revelation 12:6 This is reiterated in Zechariah 14:2
But note that half of the population will remain to face the G.T. The rest of her offspring....
Daniel 11:32 tells us who each half will be: those who violate the Covenant and those who remain faithful to God.
So they are all Christians, all those gathered out of the nations after the Land is cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 34:11-31 But half will agree to the 'treaty of death' with the Anti-Christ, Daniel 7:27, they are the 'many'. Isaiah 28:15 Sadly, just as ancient Israel did, some will backslide into apostasy.
The whole program of the end times, is to test people; many will fail, pray for strength the pass the trials and testing and to be found worthy to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:36

So are you saying that the rest of the Christians besides the 144,000 violate the Covenant?

Let's see what Revelation says:

Revelation 12:16-17
But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, how can they be apostate Christians? That is insulting to these Christians and implies that the war of Satan against them is justified by a spiritual deficiency. The reality is, God protects who He wants to protect and allows others to die by Satan's hand as He has appointed (Revelation 6:11). Those who are killed for the Word of God and testimony they hold (Revelation 6:9) are called blessed (Revelation 14:13) and they are esteemed by the Lord (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 20:6).
 
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keras

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So are you saying that the rest of the Christians besides the 144,000 violate the Covenant?
Not me, but Daniel 11:32 says: many will violate the covenant.......
Pretty much the same as what happened with the ancient Israelites, they quickly lost their true faith. Just a few years of peace and prosperity is enough for some to become complacent.
However, all this is years away yet, why worry about it? Our main concern at present is be aware of and prepared for the forthcoming great reset of civilization, a worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.
 
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Luke17:37

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Not me, but Daniel 11:32 says: many will violate the covenant.......
Pretty much the same as what happened with the ancient Israelites, they quickly lost their true faith. Just a few years of peace and prosperity is enough for some to become complacent.
However, all this is years away yet, why worry about it? Our main concern at present is be aware of and prepared for the forthcoming great reset of civilization, a worldwide disaster by fire from the sun.

There's lots of apostasy in the end, true, but calling people who the Word says, "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" apostates is just wrong.
 
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keras

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There's lots of apostasy in the end, true, but calling people who the Word says, "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" apostates is just wrong.
Do you deny what Daniel 11-32 prophesied?
But I see those who are fooled by the AC, as not renouncing their faith in God, but simply agreeing to a peace treaty, that will seem a sensible thing to do. It will be another test for God's people, now you know not to make that mistake!
 
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Luke17:37

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Do you deny what Daniel 11-32 prophesied?
But I see those who are fooled by the AC, as not renouncing their faith in God, but simply agreeing to a peace treaty, that will seem a sensible thing to do. It will be another test for God's people, now you know not to make that mistake!

Of course not. 2 Thessalonians 2 and the parable of the virgins (Matthew 25), plus that passage and others foretell a apostasy. These people ultimately reject the Lord by somehow committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

If you go back to your original post, though, you were talking about this passage:

Revelation 12:14-17
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It sounded like you were suggesting that the woman is the 144,000 (hiding in the wilderness somewhere) and the rest are apostate Christians. But you switched passages to Daniel for no reason to identify those not in the 144,000 as apostates. However, can't you see that the "rest of the her offspring" are described by the Bible in a charitable way - they keep the commands of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. There's nothing wrong with their faith. They are obedient to Jesus. He simply allows the dragon to make war with them and not with the others.

Consider this also. If the woman in the wilderness (which I believe to be the 144,000 since they are the people God sealed for protection) are the only obedient Christians and the rest are apostates that's basically saying that the 144,000 are the only Christians since apostates don't inherit salvation. I can't envision--and the Bible doesn't say--a world where there are only 144,000 Israelite Christians and the rest who claim His name are frauds. Jehovah's Witnesses believe they will be the 144,000 and that no one else will be saved. If I live in the Tribulation, I'm expecting to be in the "rest of the offspring" group. I think no one should expect to be in the 144,000 group--they are the creme de la creme of the Israelite Christians (Revelation 14:1-5).

P.S. The Bible doesn't say anything about a peace treaty here. Just because you think that doesn't mean it's true or the right way to see this passage. So now you are back pedaling slightly and saying that the rest of the offspring must have approved of the peace treaty. But still you are blaming them for what you consider to be a sin, when actually the Bible speaks very well of them in Revelation 13.
 
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The 144,000 are a group separated from the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event clears all that area. They have the task of proclaiming the good news to the world of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19 They are sealed for protection, so whatever happens they will survive.
But the rest of those Christians, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 7:9, remain living in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
Several years will pass, the Gog/Magog attack happens and then the Leader of the One World Govt will visit Beulah and negotiate a 7 year treaty of peace with them. It will seem a sensible and right thing to do, but it is a treaty with death. Isaiah 29:14-15
Daniel 11:32-35 describes this time, Zechariah 14:1-2 what happens after 3.5 years and Revelation 12 clearly speaks of two groups of Christians: one rescued to safety, the other having to face war with the dragon. After 1260 days, Jesus will Return and gather those kept in safety, the survivors of those left in the holy Land and all who refused the mark of the beast. Matthew 24:31
That is how the Bible tells it.
 
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Luke17:37

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The 144,000 are a group separated from the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event clears all that area. They have the task of proclaiming the good news to the world of the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19 They are sealed for protection, so whatever happens they will survive.
But the rest of those Christians, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 7:9, remain living in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
Several years will pass, the Gog/Magog attack happens and then the Leader of the One World Govt will visit Beulah and negotiate a 7 year treaty of peace with them. It will seem a sensible and right thing to do, but it is a treaty with death. Isaiah 29:14-15
Daniel 11:32-35 describes this time, Zechariah 14:1-2 what happens after 3.5 years and Revelation 12 clearly speaks of two groups of Christians: one rescued to safety, the other having to face war with the dragon. After 1260 days, Jesus will Return and gather those kept in safety, the survivors of those left in the holy Land and all who refused the mark of the beast. Matthew 24:31
That is how the Bible tells it.
Lots of theories in here, Keras.
 
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Luke17:37

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Not theories, scriptural truths.
If you can prove me wrong, I am happy to accept correction.

You said:
The 144,000 are a group separated from the 'vast multitude' of Christians

The 144,000 are both Christians and Israelites.

Revelation 14:1, 4 (NKJV)
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 7:4–8 (NKJV)
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

By listing out the specific tribes, I have no hope here that it's talking about spiritual "Israel" (all Christians, including Gentiles). It's talking about Jacob/Israel's physical descendants.


You said:
the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land

Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

This is not in the holy land; this takes place in the throne room of God! Present there is the Father ("He who sits on the throne"), the Lamb, the angels, the elders, and the four living creatures, which we've seen in earlier visions of heaven (chapter 4-5).

The great multitude are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, meaning they were in it but they no longer are by the time John sees them (the vision is still future, though, therefore the future tense, "come"). Because they're in heaven now, they don't deal with hunger, thirst, the heat of the sun, or any other heat (vs. 16). God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Why do they have tears in the presence of the Father and of the Lamb? Well, probably because they left the earth under traumatic circumstances. Trauma requires healing... we don't just snap out of it once the danger is gone.

The white robes are a clue, I think, and harken back to chapter 6.

Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

The clearest context to me is that their souls are in heaven because they died, and considering chapter 6:9-11, they were most likely slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.


You said:
the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event clears all that area.

Revelation 6:12–17 (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The Bible doesn't say that the Sixth Seal event clears the holy land.

You said:
But the rest of those Christians, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 7:9, remain living in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

There is nowhere in the Bible which lets you apply Isaiah 62 to the seventh seal (immediately following the sixth seal). (Again, they are in heaven in God's throne room, not in the holy land.)

Isaiah 62:8 (NKJV)
8 The Lord has sworn by His right hand
And by the arm of His strength:
“Surely I will no longer give your grain
As food for your enemies;
And the sons of the foreigner shall not drink your new wine,
For which you have labored.

This speaks, I believe, of a peace from Israel's enemies forever. However, in Zechariah 14, when Jesus is returning, look what happens:

Zechariah 14:1–4 (NKJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.

Just before Jesus fights these nations, they will capture part of the city, plunder the goods, take people into captivity, and rape women. This is not consistent with Isaiah 62:8 (or the rest of Isaiah 62) happening first. Isaiah 62 has to be after Jesus returns and judges His enemies and makes peace on the earth (Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 26:5,12,15,20-21, Isaiah 27:1, 5, 6, 12-13). Your timeline is mixed up.


You said:
Several years will pass, the Gog/Magog attack happens

Revelation 20:7–8 (NKJV)
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

This is the only passage giving the timing of the Gog and Magog rebellion, and its after the thousand years of Jesus reigning on the earth. The references to the people of Israel living in peace and safety, having been formerly gathered from the nations, make it seem like it is just consistent with the entire rebellion being at the end of the thousand years.

Ezekiel 38:8 (NKJV)
8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

Ezekiel 38:10–12 (NKJV)
10 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’—12 to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land.

Ezekiel 38:14 (NKJV)
14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it?

Perhaps Ezekiel 38 and 39 is about Armageddon and Revelation 20 is about another rebellion - that Gog/Magog just represents a worldwide army coming into Israel to attack and not a specific battle? It doesn't say for sure therefore I don't think we can be dogmatic about two Gog/Magogs.


You said:
And then the Leader of the One World Govt will visit Beulah and negotiate a 7 year treaty of peace with them. It will seem a sensible and right thing to do, but it is a treaty with death. Isaiah 29:14-15. Daniel 11:32-35 describes this time

Isaiah 29:14-15 isn't talking about this, but Daniel 9:27 does. Beulah, again, from Isaiah 62, cannot apply to pre-return of Jesus.

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 11:32–35 (NKJV)
32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

This is just talking about the Tribulation. Some will apostatize, but the people who know their God will be strong, even though they are being killed for many days. The end is still in the future during the time of great apostasy and great martyrdom.


You said:
After 1260 days, Jesus will Return and gather those kept in safety, the survivors of those left in the holy Land and all who refused the mark of the beast. Matthew 24:31

Daniel 12:11–12 (NKJV)
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

So somewhere between 1,290 days and 1,335 days, perhaps Jesus will come back. Which day exactly after the abomination of desolation? I don't know. Jesus will punish His enemies (Isaiah 26:21, Revelation 19:21) and then gather those Christians who remain alive at His coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17). Punishment of the wicked precedes the gathering of the righteous per Matthew 13 (Parable of the Tares). The survivors of the nations will go up every year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21) by celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles. If they don't go up to worship, they won't have rain.
 
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keras

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The 144,000 are a group separated from the 'vast multitude' of Christians
I meant the 144,000 are selected from out of the vast multitude.
the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land
Nowhere does the Bible say His living people will be taken to heaven. But many prophesies tell of a great gathering and going to live in all that area given to Abraham, where God will bless His people. Ezekiel 34:11-31
White robes are given to the DEAD martyrs.
the 'vast multitude' of Christians who gather in the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal event clears all that area.
No, but many other prophesies describing the Lord's Day of wrath do. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:4-5
But the rest of those Christians, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 7:9, remain living in the holy Land, the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
That is where the Lord's people will live, they will select their own leaders. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11 They will build the new Temple. Ezekiel 43:10-12 They will be His witnesses and His messengers. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 66:19
Several years will pass, the Gog/Magog attack happens
Read Ezekiel 38:8-12, a devastated Land now inhabited by a people becoming prosperous. It cannot be during the Millennium, as the Lord is not physically present yet. Ezekiel 39:21-29
The attack at the end of the Mill, is another one, a type of the previous G/M attack, but the outcome is different; at the one against Beulah, the dead are buried, at the one against Jesus they are all instantly cremated.
And then the Leader of the One World Govt will visit Beulah and negotiate a 7 year treaty of peace with them. It will seem a sensible and right thing to do, but it is a treaty with death. Isaiah 29:14-15. Daniel 11:32-35 describes this time
Sorry, typo. Isaiah 28:14-15
It will result in a time of peace for 3.5 years, but the Anti-Christ will break the treaty then and desecrate the Temple. This starts the G.T.
After 1260 days, Jesus will Return and gather those kept in safety, the survivors of those left in the holy Land and all who refused the mark of the beast. Matthew 24:31
The question of Daniels 1290 days and 1335 days is unanswerable as we are just not told anywhere the meaning of these extra days. I believe Jesus will Return after 1260 days and gather His people. Revelation 12:6 Maybe the 30 days will be the Wedding feast of the Lamb, Revelation 19:5-9, and the extra 75 days for the Temple to be cleansed.
 
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