Why do people believe in a Rapture?

BABerean2 said:

We do know that we are Abraham's seed. This cannot be denied.

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Absolutely, through "Faith".

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


The following passage makes it clear that being part of the Israel of God is not about bloodline.

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Yep, the Jews tried to tell Jesus they were descendants of Abraham, therefore they were entitled to all the promises to Abraham, but they were wrong.

Mt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Now having said that, the promises to Abraham will kept to the "Corporate" nation of Israel, not any specific individual, but "Whoever will" from among the nation.

This is the reason that Israel, being an enemy of the Gospel, is still "Elect"....."For the Father's sake" of keeping his promise to Abraham.

And it's why one week of Daniels prophecy is held in reserve until the "end of time" to bring some Jews to Christ and establish the kingdom God promised,

Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

HebrewVaquero said:

The Father, in Heaven

Talmudic/Rabbinic Judaism

Ones not steeped in the traditions of religious man, Jews and Gentiles
Faith in accepting the invitation and turning from what they were doing.
The one who thought he was good enough to attend just as he was.

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Why don't you use scripture to show who these people are, and their "location"???

Short Timer said:

Why don't you use scripture to show who these people are, and their "location"???

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James 1:1

iamlamad said:

In case you haven't noticed it, we live in the New Covenant time and our main scriptures are the Epistles and Revelation.
Of course they (some of them) DID return from captivity. And even under the New, if someone backslides, God will accept them right back into fellowship, if they repent. None of this tells us the New Testament Body of Christ will live in the Holy Land.

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There is mention of the fact of the Lord's people living in all of the Holy Land in the NT. Romans 9:26...in the very place....I shall call them the sons of the Living God. But this truth is extensively prophesied throughout the OT.

keras said:

Make sure they all clearly say God will take His people to heaven. Including just where exactly John 14 says that.

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Waiting for these 100+ verses Lamad and short timer, your # 4720 attempt to divert us from this falls flat. We know who attends the Wedding and that it occurs at the Return of Jesus to earth. Revelation 19:5-11

keras said:

There is mention of the fact of the Lord's people living in all of the Holy Land in the NT. Romans 9:26...in the very place....I shall call them the sons of the Living God. But this truth is extensively prophesied throughout the OT.



Waiting for these 100+ verses Lamad and short timer, your # 4720 attempt to divert us from this falls flat. We know who attends the Wedding and that it occurs at the Return of Jesus to earth. Revelation 19:5-11

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Hosea 1:10
New International Version
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'children of the living God.'

Now, WHO is this referencing?

You amaze me.

By the way, you miss it yet again: the wedding will be in heaven BEFORE Jesus descends.

keras said:

I disagree with the premise that those people, who are every living person on earth, Revelation 6:15, are wrong or lying when they say; Fall on us and hide us for the wrath of Almighty God has come and who can stand?
This idea is simply ludicrous, as the sun is darkened, as terrible earthquakes hit, as meteors shower down, etc, it WILL be that Day. This is logical too, as this disaster will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt and for the Lord's people to travel to and live in all of the Holy Land.
Jesus will Return years later, after all that is prophesied for the last days has taken place.

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These people will be so ashamed when the true Christ returns,that they shall seek death,but they won't find it,because at that time we shall all be changed

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

This bears repeating, but if you simply can not understand that the Antichrist comes first, before Jesus Christ's return, you will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ. This verse is describing how you will feel when you see the true Christ at the seventh trumpet. The fear will be so great that it will be a terror to your mind for the sins that you have committed in worshipping the false christ.

I'll say this again,it's all about deception,and will you worship the false christ when he comes...

The only people that will die at the instant of Christ returns are the 7000 that come with satan,after he gets kicked out of heaven

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

All will be changed,saint and sinner alike difference being who puts on immortality.....

As in the days of Noah...Do people really understand this verse

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

The fallen angels are coming back,they come with satan when he gets kicked out,that's why Paul warned us

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

I Corinthians 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

Now back to Matt 24 when I bring up the verse where Christ says he's coming after the trib,pre people say this is after the rapture and that Christ was'nt talking to the Church(BIG STRETCH)anyway,who was taken in the flood,could'nt have been Noah,as he was chilling on the ocean....

Another question noone has answered yet.When is the harvest?Will show why when some one gives me an answer.....

@keras

Simple question,when is the harvest?

n2thelight said:

Simple question,when is the harvest?

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At the Sixth Seal, which is the same event as Revelation 14:14-20
It will be a worldwide destruction by fire and many will be killed by the Lord. Isaiah 30:25-28, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

Short Timer said in post 4704:

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

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Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Doug said in post 4711:

Gentiles don't become Jews; and Jews don't become gentiles - by virtue of being saved.

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Note that just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

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All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

iamlamad said in post 4712:

MUCH as in MOST of the church today is GENTILE and God even said He will wait for the fullness of the GENTILES to come in.

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Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . .

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

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Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.

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iamlamad said in post 4713:

There is no scripture anywhere that tells us the body of Christ will live in the Holy Land.

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Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

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iamlamad quoted somebody in post 4726:

Children, there is nowhere to hide or run if you are not put away in MY Heavenly Safekeeping.

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Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand),
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains . . .

Note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14).

Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

iamlamad quoted somebody in post 4726:

Do you want to go with ME, your LORD, SAVIOR, LOVE, CREATOR, or stay and face MY enemy, MY Wrath poured out on humanity who rejects ME?

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By "Wrath", does the speaker mean that God's wrath will start at the tribulation's 6th seal?

If so, note that the Bible shows that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. For the day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

keras said in post 4718:

Calling Jews Israelite isn't wrong, but it does lead to confusion, because they are only 2/12ths of the Israelite people.

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Actually, Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes. For there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity, and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

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Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew, Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

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Just as those of the tribe of Benjamin, for example (Romans 11:1), are Jews (Acts 22:3) because they are descended from those who lived in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:1-3), so those of all the other tribes of Israel are Jews who are descended from those who came to live in the kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17). For the definition of "Jew" includes those who have connection with the territory of Judah (See Strong's word numbers G2453, G2448, H3063, and H3064), not just those who are genetically a part of the tribe of Judah.

An analogy would be people born in different countries in Europe, people whose ancestors were also born in those different countries, going back into ancient times. If they immigrate to America and become naturalized citizens of America, this won't change their genetic identities. They will still be genetically English or French or German or Italian or Spanish or Greek, etc. And only the original inhabitants of America, the American Indians, can be said to be genetic Americans. In this analogy, the nation/territory of America represents the kingdom/territory of Judah. The European immigrants represent the genetic members of the tribes of Israel other than Judah. All Americans, including the European immigrants who became naturalized citizens of America, represent all Jews. And the American Indians represent the genetic members of the tribe of Judah. (Again, this is just an analogy for how "Jews" can include genetic members of every tribe of Israel.)

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Also, the 12 tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions (as is sometimes claimed), but consist of individuals who can be living in any country or region. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations are descended from any of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, instead of them all simply being Gentile nations. For Christians come from every nation on the earth (Revelation 5:9b), and only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire church throughout the world is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 16:16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.


2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.


3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.


John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.


19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.


20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

n2thelight said:

These people will be so ashamed when the true Christ returns,that they shall seek death,but they won't find it,because at that time we shall all be changed

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

This bears repeating, but if you simply can not understand that the Antichrist comes first, before Jesus Christ's return, you will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ. This verse is describing how you will feel when you see the true Christ at the seventh trumpet. The fear will be so great that it will be a terror to your mind for the sins that you have committed in worshipping the false christ.

I'll say this again,it's all about deception,and will you worship the false christ when he comes...

The only people that will die at the instant of Christ returns are the 7000 that come with satan,after he gets kicked out of heaven

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

All will be changed,saint and sinner alike difference being who puts on immortality.....

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This bears repeating, but if you simply can not understand that the Antichrist comes first, before Jesus Christ's return, you will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ.

Readers beware, this is simply NOT TRUTH. Neither is there a "coming" at the 7th trumpet. John SHOWS us His coming after the trib' in chapter 19. It is NOT SHOWN anywhere else. NO ONE "comes" at the 7th trumpet. But very shortly after the 7th trumpet, the man of sin will turn Beast and go after those who fled into the wilderness.

Next, read carefully WHO gets the strong delusion: "them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." Those who are born again and watching, EXPECTING His coming won't even be here at that time, for we will have escaped all that by way of the pretrib rapture.

Neither do "all" put on immortality. This is just not truth, but human reasoning. First, only those
IN CHRIST put on immortality. Later the Old Testament saints. After the 1000 years, the sinners get raised.

Neither do "7000" die when Christ comes. He must have pulled that number straight out of a hat.
You are right here: "It is all about deception." The very first thing Jesus said when asked about the end times is NOT to get deceived. Above we find a post with no truth at all: 100% deception.

Postvieww said:

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 16:16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.


2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.


3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.


John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.


19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.


20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

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I was beginning to miss you! Merry Christmas!

keras said:

At the Sixth Seal, which is the same event as Revelation 14:14-20
It will be a worldwide destruction by fire and many will be killed by the Lord. Isaiah 30:25-28, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

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When Jesus was asked about the end times, the FIRST thing He said was NOT to be deceived.
The above post is 100% deception. The 6th seal comes 3 1/2 years before anything in Rev. 14.

n2thelight said:

As in the days of Noah...Do people really understand this verse

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

The fallen angels are coming back,they come with satan when he gets kicked out,that's why Paul warned us

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

I Corinthians 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

Now back to Matt 24 when I bring up the verse where Christ says he's coming after the trib,pre people say this is after the rapture and that Christ was'nt talking to the Church(BIG STRETCH)anyway,who was taken in the flood,could'nt have been Noah,as he was chilling on the ocean....

Another question noone has answered yet.When is the harvest?Will show why when some one gives me an answer.....

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Let's get it IN CONTEXT and let's tell the truth about Jesus' MEANING when He mentioned Noah. Eer heard of a preposition? Go back to Matthew 24 and find the preposition "for." This gives us the REASON Jesus brought up Noah. It has NOTHING to do with taken or left.

iamlamad said:

I was beginning to miss you! Merry Christmas!

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Merry Christmas to you my brother.

Short Timer said:

There's quite few running around saying lord lord, that's never been saved.

The "Truth" always condemns the Carnal mind and it's ideas of what "Truth" really is,

And when you speak against the "Truth", you speak against God/Jesus.

How much "Respect" for God are you going to show when he said the scriptures are only revealed by the Spirit and Jesus sent the HG to teach, but the HG is rejected as Teacher,

and you end up with 97 different doctrines none of which agree with each other, much less Jesus????

Carnal mind garbage is as obvious as all these different conflicting doctrines,

which wouldn't be the case if all had the same "Teacher".

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Jesus summarized the law of the Spirit, and it was to love God and neighbor. Would you also criticize the mentally handicapped or otherwise stricken individuals who for some reason fail to understand some technical component of the Scriptures, but have the sweetest heart? Can you not see that those who follow Christ follow him in the Spirit according to grace and not according to their academic understanding of Scriptures? You seem to place more importance on knowledge than on Truth, because Truth is not to be found in knowledge alone, but in how we treat each other. And if you will judge your fellow Christian so as to condemn them as a liar, that they do not truly believe, or that their disagreement with you is by way of necessity a purposeful distortion of the Truth, then it would seem to me that you do not have kind regard for your neighbor, and the Scriptures contain many an example of how Jesus feels about that.