Why do people believe in a Rapture?

keras · Nov 10, 2015

This is an good article by James Lloyd:
I recently had an interaction with a Christian that reminded me how important it is to recognize a phenomenon that virtually all counter-cult experts have documented. This is the simple fact that words and doctrines that seem to be universally understood in a Christian context can carry a completely different meaning to people who have been ensnared in a cultic mindset.
For example, a salesman at a Christian book publisher once called me in an attempt to get us to order more books from his employer. This publisher, known as Hearthstone Publishing, is associated with the Rapture Cult group known as The Southwest Radio Church out of Oklahoma.

I had previously purchased a respectable wholesale quantity of a single title from them because it critically examined the Preterist apostasy. I'll remind readers that Preterism is the doctrine that says the Tribulation already happened in 70 AD, with some Preterists even saying that Christ returned invisibly at that time. Although I knew the book would come from a Rapture Cult perspective, I reasoned that at least some of the arguments against Preterism would be valid.

My own book refuting the false doctrine of Preterism (entitled Days Of Future Past: The Preterist Apostasy) could not possibly have covered every argument, and because Christian Media is committed to opposing Preterism, I wanted to add to our knowledge base on the subject. Unfortunately, very few have recognized the enormous threat of Preterism and, at the time, there were very few titles available exposing the subject. This might surprise the reader, but I would venture to say that for every published book criticizing Preterism, there are 20 promoting it.
Thus, like a fireman throwing everything he has against a rapidly spreading blaze, I was even willing to distribute a book written from the erroneous pre-tribulationist Rapture perspective in order to attack this deadly false doctrine. I’ve since learned you can’t fight error with a leavened truth, but that’s a subject to be pursued another day.

How Dare You Call Me A Cultist!
Now, a couple of paragraphs back, I used the phrase "Rapture Cult." Because some pre-tribulation rapture adherents are probably reading these words, it's very likely there are some who have never heard their own belief system referred to as a "cult." Furthermore, this term is virtually guaranteed to inflame the sensibilities of those "Rapturists" that have never considered any form of what they subjectively perceive to be mainstream Christianity, to be cultic in nature.

The fact is, the Rapture Cult is just that: a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system.

But back to the episode with the Rapture book salesman. After patiently listening to his pitch, I politely and diplomatically told him the only reason we purchased the single book from his group was because we are aggressive opponents of the Preterist doctrine; however, we won't be ordering any other titles from them because we are also firmly against the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine espoused by his employer. I did not use the inflammatory phrase Rapture Cult as I already had his attention, nor did I seek in any way to provoke the man. I simply and calmly stated that Christian Media is largely post-tribulational, as the Bible plainly teaches us that Christ will return and resurrect the believer "immediately after the tribulation..." (Matthew 24:29).

Sensing I only had a few seconds to make any scriptural point before the salesman’s conditioning kicked in, and hoping to at least plant some seeds for future thought, I quickly mentioned how Jesus said he would resurrect the believer "on the last day" in John chapter 6. Indeed, Christ repeated the statement FOUR times in that chapter saying those that believe in Him will be raised from the dead on "the last day." (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). I then asked the young man 'If the dead in Christ are raised at the last day, how then can that "last day" happen 7 years before the 2nd coming of Christ, and still be the last day?' (I Corinthians 15:51, I Thessalonians 4:16).

That was the "last" full sentence I was able to get out, as the young salesman quickly exploded in rage, and would not allow me to complete a single sentence after that. He immediately launched into what could only be called a very aggressive diatribe of how the land of Israel belongs to the Jews! He rapidly grew angrier and angrier, and denounced those that want to take "dominion." He never cited a single verse in Scripture, and after about a minute more of a one sided conversation, he screamed at me and abruptly hung up the phone! Noting that he had called me to sell our ministry some books, and having some background in sales, I shook my head and said aloud "this was not a very good sales call!"

Prophetic Programming
After the intense exchange, I thought a bit about it and, once again, tried to evaluate what had just happened. I had never even mentioned Israel, nor the Jews, or even voiced a statement relative to land rights in the Middle East. The only thing I mentioned was the order of the resurrection - and yet the man's practically hysterical statements were completely focused on the issue of Jewish versus Palestinian claims to the historic land of Israel!
“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him” (Proverbs 18:13).

keras · Nov 10, 2015

Continued.....
What this interaction illustrates is how we can become so programmed into a particular perspective that when we encounter opposition, we fall into a pre-arranged, virtually automatic pattern of response. The phenomenon is not dissimilar to an old married couple that fights the same fight over and over. They might have a spat over something relatively recent and inconsequential, but they frequently end up falling into the behavioral abyss of rehashing something they've already clashed on repeatedly many years before.
In this case, experiential and doctrinal conditioning has programmed the young book salesman to believe that anyone that opposes the pre-tribulation rapture must be a dominionist, and is therefore against the Jewish people laying claim to their historic territory. This is nonsense, but because he can't think 'outside of the box' as the popular idiom states, he immediately leaped to the fallacious conclusion of his position - that the real issue of the so-called "rapture" is the pre-eminent political position of the Jews in the Middle East.
This is religious brainwashing of the very worst kind, because it assumes an opponent’s position before any intelligent inquiry begins. Indeed, with Rapturists, in most cases the subject is not even open for a scripturally centered presentation. The fact is, while we are not dispensational (the technical term for the pre-tribulationists), we are not against Jewish control of that hotly contested tiny tract of land that has become "a burdensome stone for all people...." (Zechariah 12:3).

In this person's perspective, the issue of Jewish pre-eminence is so crucial to his worldview that he simply defers any scriptural examination of the weak foundation that his conclusion is resting upon. Very few Christians realize that the reason the Rapturists fight so fiercely for pre-trib is not only because they have grave difficulty envisioning actually being in the tribulation, the Spirit that directs their thought processes knows that the doctrine is the lynchpin to a crucial understanding of prophetic fulfillment, which manifests the power of Antichrist.
To say it another way, the Spirit found in the son of perdition was sitting in that salesman’s temple on that occasion.

The point is, vast numbers of Christians blindly accept the ultimate conclusions of a theological system without a thorough examination of the full implications of the position they hold. I submit this is a classic characteristic of a cult.
Indeed, one of the reasons the Rapture folks argue so strenuously concerning the so-called "ancient origin" of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is the fact that the historical record clearly places the doctrine as emerging during the period when almost every other American cult system was developed. For instance, the Mormon religion, the cultic group known as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddy's Gnostic originated Christian Science, and virtually all the other modern American rivals to Biblical Christianity were formed around the same period.

Groups such as the 7th Day Adventists, and subsequent splinter groups such as Herbert W Armstrong's Worldwide Church Of God, as well as the pseudo-Pentecostal group known as Branhamites were spiritually birthed during the explosive cult creating 19th century. Although evidence suggests there were earlier historical figures positing some variation of the Rapture concept, an unbiased appraisal of the Rapture Cult conclusively demonstrates the origin of the present version of the Rapture Cult is derived from an 1830 Scottish cult that was involved in various spiritualist practices - including levitation. By denying the truth of these facts in order to sustain the desired political result of the system, the proponents of the doctrine have built their house on the shifting sand of false doctrine, and given the great deceiver an enormous stronghold from which to continue his nefarious work.
Although the Rapture Cult claims there are multiple “dispensations” of the Gospel, with one version for the Jews, and another for the Gentiles, The New Testament clearly establishes there is one faith, one blood, one Gospel, and one salvation.
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4-6).

iamlamad · Nov 10, 2015

parousia70 said:
Belief or lack thereof has nothing to do with being awake or being asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5: 4-10
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

You see, whether Believers are awake or asleep at that time makes no difference eternally.

Fulness of the gentiles is not a quantity, it is a QUALITY, and this Fulness was bestowed upon Gentile Believers no later than the end of Paul's Ministry..

Christianity is The Jewish Church, which existed since the time of Moses, Gone Global.
Christianity (The Nazarene Sect of Biblical Judaism) is the ONLY surviving form of Covenanted Biblical Judaism Today.

This is a true statement, found in God's word: whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

But HOW do we "live together with Him? Of course by way of RAPTURE. But awake or asleep is not the question: The question is, will you be FOUND WORTHY to escape?

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

How can one be accounted worthy to escape when they don't BELIEVE in an escape?

You guessed on fullness and guessed wrong.

New International Version
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
Berean Study Bible
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Weymouth New Testament
For there is a truth, brethren, not revealed hitherto, of which I do not wish to leave you in ignorance, for fear you should attribute superior wisdom to yourselves--the truth, I mean, that partial blindness has fallen upon Israel until the great mass of the Gentiles have come in;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
International Standard Version
For I want to let you know about this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are: Stubbornness has come to part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles comes to faith.
NET Bible
For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

You and I both know that the middle wall of partition between the Greeks and Hebrews is broken down and all are ONE in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. This however is spiritual. A born again Jew will still have a Jewish mother and will still have Jacob's DNA. A Gentile born again believer will have neither, but will still be "grafted in." Nevertheless, the same author that wrote all this also wrote about the full number of Gentiles coming in. Therefore the church of today is the Gentile church. 99.99% are Gentile by blood.

iamlamad · Nov 10, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Even under your system of interpretation, Gentiles will still become believers during the tribulation.

Therefore, the last Gentile does not come to faith until the day of Christ's Second Coming.

That would be the fullness of the Gentiles.

You are attempting to make it fit Darby's doctrine.
.

No, sorry, incorrect: the RAPTURE is waiting on the fullness of the Gentiles, and at the moment of the rapture, God's FOCUS will turn from Gentile to Jew, from the age of Grace to the 70th week of Daniel that is for HIS people.

You can try 'till the cows come home, but PRETRIB is in the bible. You are just blind to it. And it has very little to do with Darby. He was one out of millions that found the pretrib rapture in the bible.

Go ahead and MISS the catching up and "escape" from what is coming. It will be your OWN doing. Maybe you don't like your hair style, and just want to LOSE IT?

iamlamad · Nov 10, 2015

keras said:
Read carefully Ephesians 4:4-6 2P2P is a totally false belief.
Ezekiel 37 remains unfulfilled. The great re-joining of Judah and Israel, [the Christian peoples] will happen soon after the entire Middle East is cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 30:1-5 As Jeremiah 50:4-5 says; they will come together and in tears go to the Holy Land......
God will keep His promises to the Patriarchs. Their descendants, natural and grafted in, will occupy all of that area given to Abraham. Galatians 4:29
I have said it before and I say it again; THIS is our promise and our heritage, living as God always intended, in all of the Holy Land, preparing the world for the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Sorry, but Ephesians 4 is about those IN the body of Christ - those that are born again. It has nothing to do with those outside of Christ, either Jew or Gentile.

Eze. 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel...

This part is certainly fulfilled before our eyes. God HAS TAKEN the children of Israel from among the nations and brought them into their OWN land. There are other verses that tell us the same thing:

Isaiah 43:
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--

Ezekiel 20:
42 Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the land I had sworn with uplifted hand to give to your fathers.

Ezekiel 36:
24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

Ezekiel 39:
27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations.

Do you imagine that God will just forget His promises to Israel?

iamlamad · Nov 10, 2015

keras said:
This is an good article by James Lloyd:
I recently had an interaction with a Christian that reminded me how important it is to recognize a phenomenon that virtually all counter-cult experts have documented. This is the simple fact that words and doctrines that seem to be universally understood in a Christian context can carry a completely different meaning to people who have been ensnared in a cultic mindset.
For example, a salesman at a Christian book publisher once called me in an attempt to get us to order more books from his employer. This publisher, known as Hearthstone Publishing, is associated with the Rapture Cult group known as The Southwest Radio Church out of Oklahoma.

I had previously purchased a respectable wholesale quantity of a single title from them because it critically examined the Preterist apostasy. I'll remind readers that Preterism is the doctrine that says the Tribulation already happened in 70 AD, with some Preterists even saying that Christ returned invisibly at that time. Although I knew the book would come from a Rapture Cult perspective, I reasoned that at least some of the arguments against Preterism would be valid.

My own book refuting the false doctrine of Preterism (entitled Days Of Future Past: The Preterist Apostasy) could not possibly have covered every argument, and because Christian Media is committed to opposing Preterism, I wanted to add to our knowledge base on the subject. Unfortunately, very few have recognized the enormous threat of Preterism and, at the time, there were very few titles available exposing the subject. This might surprise the reader, but I would venture to say that for every published book criticizing Preterism, there are 20 promoting it.
Thus, like a fireman throwing everything he has against a rapidly spreading blaze, I was even willing to distribute a book written from the erroneous pre-tribulationist Rapture perspective in order to attack this deadly false doctrine. I’ve since learned you can’t fight error with a leavened truth, but that’s a subject to be pursued another day.

How Dare You Call Me A Cultist!
Now, a couple of paragraphs back, I used the phrase "Rapture Cult." Because some pre-tribulation rapture adherents are probably reading these words, it's very likely there are some who have never heard their own belief system referred to as a "cult." Furthermore, this term is virtually guaranteed to inflame the sensibilities of those "Rapturists" that have never considered any form of what they subjectively perceive to be mainstream Christianity, to be cultic in nature.

The fact is, the Rapture Cult is just that: a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system.

But back to the episode with the Rapture book salesman. After patiently listening to his pitch, I politely and diplomatically told him the only reason we purchased the single book from his group was because we are aggressive opponents of the Preterist doctrine; however, we won't be ordering any other titles from them because we are also firmly against the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine espoused by his employer. I did not use the inflammatory phrase Rapture Cult as I already had his attention, nor did I seek in any way to provoke the man. I simply and calmly stated that Christian Media is largely post-tribulational, as the Bible plainly teaches us that Christ will return and resurrect the believer "immediately after the tribulation..." (Matthew 24:29).

Sensing I only had a few seconds to make any scriptural point before the salesman’s conditioning kicked in, and hoping to at least plant some seeds for future thought, I quickly mentioned how Jesus said he would resurrect the believer "on the last day" in John chapter 6. Indeed, Christ repeated the statement FOUR times in that chapter saying those that believe in Him will be raised from the dead on "the last day." (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). I then asked the young man 'If the dead in Christ are raised at the last day, how then can that "last day" happen 7 years before the 2nd coming of Christ, and still be the last day?' (I Corinthians 15:51, I Thessalonians 4:16).

That was the "last" full sentence I was able to get out, as the young salesman quickly exploded in rage, and would not allow me to complete a single sentence after that. He immediately launched into what could only be called a very aggressive diatribe of how the land of Israel belongs to the Jews! He rapidly grew angrier and angrier, and denounced those that want to take "dominion." He never cited a single verse in Scripture, and after about a minute more of a one sided conversation, he screamed at me and abruptly hung up the phone! Noting that he had called me to sell our ministry some books, and having some background in sales, I shook my head and said aloud "this was not a very good sales call!"

Prophetic Programming
After the intense exchange, I thought a bit about it and, once again, tried to evaluate what had just happened. I had never even mentioned Israel, nor the Jews, or even voiced a statement relative to land rights in the Middle East. The only thing I mentioned was the order of the resurrection - and yet the man's practically hysterical statements were completely focused on the issue of Jewish versus Palestinian claims to the historic land of Israel!
“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him” (Proverbs 18:13).

I knew the book would come from a Rapture Cult perspective...

You have this backwards! IF there is a "cult" perspective, it is on the side of posttribbers. I too have found some posttribers get angry when challenged.

I am SURE you realize that there are many very wise brothers and sisters in Christ on EITHER SIDE of this agrument. Some put more weight on certain scriptures, and so see a posttrib rapture, while others put more weight on other scriptures and so see a pretrib rapture. In my opinion, to call EITHER SIDE a "cult" is going too far.

Just as an example, is the "Day of the Lord" called a "day?" You know it is: many times in the Old Testament is is referred to as "that day." Since it will be the very last "day" before Jesus comes, albeit a 7 year long day, perhaps Jesus was referring to "the day of the Lord" or "that day" as "the last day." Can you prove to all that His "day" was in reference to an evening and morning 24 hour day? I don't think you can.

YOu see, for every scripture that posttrib brings up as absolute proof of a posttrib rapture, pretrib sees the very same verse a different way. For example, posttribbers are sure that 2 Thes. 2:3 is concrete proof of a posttrib rapture, but I think it is very strong proof of a pretrib rapture.

I have noticed that most, if not all, posttribbers find the need to rearrange Revelation to make their theory fit. In my mind, there is NO NEED to rearrange, for I believe it is written in the same order these events will take place. One CLASSIC example is Rev. 19 concerning the marriage and supper. Posttribers have to REARRANGE this chapter to make their theory work. Perhaps posttribbers see this rearranging as a small thing. I think it is a HUGE thing. I am convinced that ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Therefore, to call a belief different than your own a "cult" could perhaps come back and bite you. One thing I am quite sure of: posttribbers cannot possibly be praying to be found worthy to escape what is coming, because they simply do not BELIEVE in any escape.

iamlamad · Nov 10, 2015

keras said:
Continued.....
What this interaction illustrates is how we can become so programmed into a particular perspective that when we encounter opposition, we fall into a pre-arranged, virtually automatic pattern of response. The phenomenon is not dissimilar to an old married couple that fights the same fight over and over. They might have a spat over something relatively recent and inconsequential, but they frequently end up falling into the behavioral abyss of rehashing something they've already clashed on repeatedly many years before.
In this case, experiential and doctrinal conditioning has programmed the young book salesman to believe that anyone that opposes the pre-tribulation rapture must be a dominionist, and is therefore against the Jewish people laying claim to their historic territory. This is nonsense, but because he can't think 'outside of the box' as the popular idiom states, he immediately leaped to the fallacious conclusion of his position - that the real issue of the so-called "rapture" is the pre-eminent political position of the Jews in the Middle East.
This is religious brainwashing of the very worst kind, because it assumes an opponent’s position before any intelligent inquiry begins. Indeed, with Rapturists, in most cases the subject is not even open for a scripturally centered presentation. The fact is, while we are not dispensational (the technical term for the pre-tribulationists), we are not against Jewish control of that hotly contested tiny tract of land that has become "a burdensome stone for all people...." (Zechariah 12:3).

In this person's perspective, the issue of Jewish pre-eminence is so crucial to his worldview that he simply defers any scriptural examination of the weak foundation that his conclusion is resting upon. Very few Christians realize that the reason the Rapturists fight so fiercely for pre-trib is not only because they have grave difficulty envisioning actually being in the tribulation, the Spirit that directs their thought processes knows that the doctrine is the lynchpin to a crucial understanding of prophetic fulfillment, which manifests the power of Antichrist.
To say it another way, the Spirit found in the son of perdition was sitting in that salesman’s temple on that occasion.

The point is, vast numbers of Christians blindly accept the ultimate conclusions of a theological system without a thorough examination of the full implications of the position they hold. I submit this is a classic characteristic of a cult.
Indeed, one of the reasons the Rapture folks argue so strenuously concerning the so-called "ancient origin" of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is the fact that the historical record clearly places the doctrine as emerging during the period when almost every other American cult system was developed. For instance, the Mormon religion, the cultic group known as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddy's Gnostic originated Christian Science, and virtually all the other modern American rivals to Biblical Christianity were formed around the same period.

Groups such as the 7th Day Adventists, and subsequent splinter groups such as Herbert W Armstrong's Worldwide Church Of God, as well as the pseudo-Pentecostal group known as Branhamites were spiritually birthed during the explosive cult creating 19th century. Although evidence suggests there were earlier historical figures positing some variation of the Rapture concept, an unbiased appraisal of the Rapture Cult conclusively demonstrates the origin of the present version of the Rapture Cult is derived from an 1830 Scottish cult that was involved in various spiritualist practices - including levitation. By denying the truth of these facts in order to sustain the desired political result of the system, the proponents of the doctrine have built their house on the shifting sand of false doctrine, and given the great deceiver an enormous stronghold from which to continue his nefarious work.
Although the Rapture Cult claims there are multiple “dispensations” of the Gospel, with one version for the Jews, and another for the Gentiles, The New Testament clearly establishes there is one faith, one blood, one Gospel, and one salvation.
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4-6).

The point is, vast numbers of Christians blindly accept the ultimate conclusions of a theological system without a thorough examination of the full implications of the position they hold. I submit this is a classic characteristic of a cult.
I would submit that the above is referencing prettribers. Therefore one could also write:

The point is,posttrib Christians blindly accept the ultimate conclusions of a theological system without a thorough examination of the full implications of the position they hold. I submit this is a classic characteristic of a cult.

But what is TRUTH? The truth is, there are good Berean type believers on BOTH SIDES of this aisle that have studied this subject diligently and come up with two different conclusions. I don't think either side rises to the title of "cult."

the Spirit that directs their thought processes knows that the doctrine is the lynchpin to a crucial understanding of prophetic fulfillment, which manifests the power of Antichrist.

Make no mistake, readers, what this is really saying is that this writer believes prettribbers are listening to a DIFFERENT spirit that he is. Of course pretribbers could say the same exact thing: posttribbers are listening to the wrong spirit.

What is the truth here? Most people on EITHER SIDE of this argument have never heard the voice of God and begin to wonder greatly about those who claim they DO hear the voice of God. One thing I think both sides can agree on here: the HOLY SPIRIT will not tell some to believe in a pretrib rapture and then tell others to believe in a posttrib rapture. Since most do not hear the voice of God, this point is moot.

What then is happening? Most people use human reasoning to come to a pre or post viewpoint, and that falls short of determining the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, one of the reasons the Rapture folks argue so strenuously concerning the so-called "ancient origin" of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is the fact that the historical record clearly places the doctrine as emerging during the period when almost every other American cult system was developed.

This is a theory, but that is all it is. I cannot answer for other pretribbers, but I am here because I am convinced the bible really teaches a PRETRIB rapture, and those who cannot see it will not be praying the Luke 21:36 prayer and will simply not be found worthy to escape. In other words, they will be setting their OWN appointment with God's wrath. I don't wish to see ANYONE have to face the Beast when God has made a way of escape.

I have one question to ask the writer: did the doctrine of salvation by faith alone - nailed to the wall of a church by Martin Luther - have an "ancient origin?" Could it be found in the scriptures themselves? You know the answer. What really happened? Martin Luther READ HIS BIBLE and knew what was being commonly taught was a lie. So He came against it.

I personally believe the posttrib belief to be a lie, and see the pretrib rapture IN THE SCRIPTURE. Not written in the 1800's as some think, but written by Paul before the first century was finished.

By denying the truth of these facts in order to sustain the desired political result of the system, the proponents of the doctrine have built their house on the shifting sand of false doctrine, and given the great deceiver an enormous stronghold from which to continue his nefarious work.

I think you have the wrong side of the argument here: I am convinced that it is SATAN who is pushing the posttrib doctrine because he wants MANY to be left behind. He is convinced, given a crack at them, they will give up and take the mark.

I have said frequently, if any wishes to set their OWN appointment with His WRATH - God will allow it. He will simply leave them behind and their desire will come to pass.

keras · Nov 10, 2015

iamlamad said:
Sorry, but Ephesians 4 is about those IN the body of Christ - those that are born again. It has nothing to do with those outside of Christ, either Jew or Gentile.

This is correct, as C.S.Lewis said: There are only two types of people in the world, those who believe in God and those who don't.
Those 'in the Body of Christ', be they actual descendants of Jacob or grafted in, are the Elect group. There is no division among them, as you try to make out.

iamlamad said:
You have this backwards! IF there is a "cult" perspective, it is on the side of posttribbers. I too have found some posttribers get angry when challenged.

You are probably right here too. However I do not subscribe to any rapture. What either pre, mid, or post rapture believers fail to see, is the many Bible passages that tell us how the Lord will gather His people into all of the Holy Land, soon after His Day of wrath that will clear all that area.

iamlamad said:
I have said frequently, if any wishes to set their OWN appointment with His WRATH - God will allow it. He will simply leave them behind and their desire will come to pass.

This is a wrong and straight out sinful statement. YOU have no say in this matter, the Lord is the Judge, He sees into the heart and if your heart for fellow Christians who dispute your beliefs, is that they are punished, then you, brother, are guilty of pride and arrogance.

Open Heart · Nov 10, 2015

iamlamad said:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

He's talking about the end of the world and the judgment, NOT the tribulation. Times of tribulation come and go.

BABerean2 · Nov 10, 2015

iamlamad said:
No, sorry, incorrect: the RAPTURE is waiting on the fullness of the Gentiles, and at the moment of the rapture, God's FOCUS will turn from Gentile to Jew, from the age of Grace to the 70th week of Daniel that is for HIS people.

You can try 'till the cows come home, but PRETRIB is in the bible. You are just blind to it. And it has very little to do with Darby. He was one out of millions that found the pretrib rapture in the bible.

Go ahead and MISS the catching up and "escape" from what is coming. It will be your OWN doing. Maybe you don't like your hair style, and just want to LOSE IT?

If you can show us where in the New Testament the text says the age of Grace will end and God will go back to the Sinai Covenant, with Moses as the Law Giver and Aaron as the High Priest and then somehow these people are going to come to faith in Jesus Christ, then please produce it for all to see.
Is this another form of the Gospel?

And since no American pastor taught a pretrib rapture at the time of the American Revolution, you are also putting them in the category of those who will be "left behind".

Maybe you think they will MISS the catching up and "escape", because they died before John Darby came to America.

Did these old preachers miss out on being a part of Darby's rapture cult?
.

Job8 · Nov 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
He's talking about the end of the world and the judgment, NOT the tribulation. Times of tribulation come and go.

No, times of tribulation may come and go, but The Tribulation and The Great Tribulation are very specific periods, not to be lightly dismissed since they have never been and will never be repeated again (and that is what that verse is talking about).

Job8 · Nov 10, 2015

BABerean2 said:
If you can show us where in the New Testament the text says the age of Grace will end and God will go back to the Sinai Covenant, with Moses as the Law Giver and Aaron as the High Priest and then somehow these people are going to come to faith in Jesus Christ, then please produce it for all to see.

There's no need to exaggerate and distort things by bringing Sinai, Moses, and Aaron into the picture. How many times does it have to be stated that Israel will be under THE NEW COVENANT regardless of everything else that will be during the Millennium? Only God can explain how He will harmonize the Millennial Temple with the New Covenant, since God has not necessarily revealed every detail to us. What should be crystal clear is that Christ will establish redeemed and restored Israel in the Land of Promise from the Nile to the Euphrates, and there will certainly be a holy and unpolluted Temple in Jerusalem at that time. We need to acknowledge Bible prophecies without necessarily having to join all the dots which are missing. Why don't you spend some time studying Ezekiel in depth?

Riberra · Nov 10, 2015

iamlamad said:
Just as an example, is the "Day of the Lord" called a "day?" You know it is: many times in the Old Testament is is referred to as "that day." Since it will be the very last "day" before Jesus comes,

You get it wrong ,the very Last Day (of this age) will happen UNTO the return of Jesus which is the Day of the Lord.

iamlamad said:
Can you prove to all that His "day" was in reference to an evening and morning 24 hour day? I don't think you can.

I can

Joel 2 (KJV)

2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A DAY of darkness and of gloominess, A DAY of clouds and of thick darkness, As The Morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joel 2 (Armageddon's battle)
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 3 (Armageddon's battle)
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Postvieww · Nov 11, 2015

The white horse

I do not believe the white horse of Revelation 6:2 can be proved by scripture to either the antichrist or Jesus.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

All we know from this verse for sure is:

1. the rider is referred to as “he”.

2. The rider had a bow

3. The rider had a crown given unto him.

5 The rider “went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

The fact that two bible believing Christians can arrive at conclusions at opposite ends of the spectrum such as the antichrist and Jesus, from this small amount of information, tells us these interpretation are up to the whims of the individual. There are other interpretations out there but these seem to be the more prominent ones.

It is amusing how people so dogmatically proclaim their interpretation to be the correct one from so little information. I have my own beliefs and have discussed them on this forum but have never proclaimed them to be the absolute correct interpretation as many appear to do here.

I am convinced Rev 6:1-8 is referring the same creatures whatever they represent as Zech 6:1-8. As most of you should know by now I prefer to compare like scriptures to get a clearer picture by combining the information that is described alike or similar by different writers. Many choose to demand exact wording for different passages to be the same subject. That seldom works as I have pointed many examples of this and most are ignored and never responded to.

In this case I believe Zech 6:1-8 is much help, while others scoff and ignore all similarities because it may upset their predetermined apple cart.

First I find it interesting that that both passages are chapters 6:1-8. I’m convinced numbers are important in scripture. Another example is 1 Thess 4:14, Zech 14:5, Jude 14,Rev, 19:14 all have the number 14 in common and have similar themes. The number 14 in scripture can be tied over and over to salvation or deliverance. Believe what you will.

Now to Zech 6. I’ll let all of you scholars point out all the differences , I’ll focus on the things that are alike.

Zech 6: 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

1. 4 different colored horses 3 identicle one called bay instead of pale.

Additional information:

1: These are the four spirits of heaven

2. The white follow the black into the north country.

These two additional facts do not positively identify the white horse, but they do eliminate the antichrist or Jesus.

BABerean2 · Nov 11, 2015

Job8 said:
There's no need to exaggerate and distort things by bringing Sinai, Moses, and Aaron into the picture. How many times does it have to be stated that Israel will be under THE NEW COVENANT regardless of everything else that will be during the Millennium? Only God can explain how He will harmonize the Millennial Temple with the New Covenant, since God has not necessarily revealed every detail to us. What should be crystal clear is that Christ will establish redeemed and restored Israel in the Land of Promise from the Nile to the Euphrates, and there will certainly be a holy and unpolluted Temple in Jerusalem at that time. We need to acknowledge Bible prophecies without necessarily having to join all the dots which are missing. Why don't you spend some time studying Ezekiel in depth?

I am not exaggerating or distorting anything. Classic Dispensational Theology taught by Darby, Scofield, Larkin and Chafer claims that after the pretrib removal of the Church, God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant System during a future 70th week of Daniel.

They also claim the Church is God's eternal heavenly people and Israel is God's eternal earthly people. Larkin added to that by saying "And never the twain shall meet". They even go so far to claim that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are not the same, even though there is scripture where they are used interchangeably.

Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

Your land promise claim comes from page 338 of the Jesuit book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. It is found in the second link at the bottom. This book is the original source of Dispensational Theology.

I do not define the New Testament through the Old Testament. I do the opposite.

Anyone who claims the Holy Spirit is going to be removed from the earth and then "somehow" people are going to come under the New Covenant, which requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, should be required to fill in all the blanks for this plan of salvation you are advocating.

It is the fatal flaw of Dispensational Theology.

There is only one plan of salvation in place until the Second Coming of Christ and it requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

Bible2+ · Nov 11, 2015

Short Timer said in post 3726:

Some of you looking to see the AC before you see Jesus just might get your wish . . .

Note that no Christians are wishing for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't wishing for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Also, note that Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

*******

Short Timer said in post 3740:

Are all the feast "lies" too???

No, for note that all of the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.

For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the Church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the Church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).

The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the Church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the Church (Acts 10:45b).

The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).

The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).

The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the Church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).

Bible2+ · Nov 11, 2015

iamlamad said in post 3729:

Ezekiel 37 was not written to the Gentile church of today.

In Ezekiel 37, note that the resurrection described in verse 10 could refer to the political rebirth of Israel after its Babylonian Captivity, for Ezekiel 37:11 is referring to Israel in the time of Ezekiel, when it was in the Babylonian Captivity. The dry bones would then represent the loss of Israel's hope during that time (Ezekiel 37:11).

The "army" in Ezekiel 37:10 may not be literal in the sense of a military force sent out to attack or defend some territory, but could simply be a figurative way of expressing the size of the multitude of people seen by Ezekiel in his vision, like, for example, someone could say "There is a whole army of ants in the kitchen", meaning that there is a huge number of ants.

While Ezekiel 37:11-12 could have been a metaphor for Israel in its Babylonian Captivity, and then its return to the land of Israel after that captivity (Ezra 2:1), at the same time Ezekiel 37:12-24 could also refer to the future, physical resurrection of the church, which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For the church is Israel (e.g. Revelation 21:9b,12b).

iamlamad said in post 3729:

God has made promises to those that are of the circumcised.

Are you thinking of Ezekiel 44:9?

If so, note that if Ezekiel 44:9 is referring to a future time under the New Covenant, then its "flesh" circumcision could be figurative, like the New Covenant "flesh" circumcision in Colossians 2:11 (for both Jews and Gentiles) is figurative (cf. also Romans 2:28-29).

If Ezekiel 44:9 is referring to Old Covenant circumcision, note that Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

Also, if Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are a prophecy of future events, and weren't only a conditional vision which now will never be fulfilled, the sabbath and feasts (e.g. Ezekiel 46:4,9) won't be those of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, but a better version of them, under the New Covenant. For the rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

iamlamad said in post 3729:

We have been promised escape from God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 indeed refers to God's wrath, which is opposed to salvation (John 3:36). But note that even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

(Continued in next post)

Bible2+ · Nov 11, 2015

(Continued from prior post)

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

iamlamad said in post 3729:

Just be prepared to be overcome, and forced to either take the mark or lose your head. YOU will not live through the days of GT.

Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 3729:

. . . the marriage and supper will be IN HEAVEN for those who have previously arrived BEFORE Jesus descends as seen in Rev. 19.

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

*******

iamlamad said in post 3732:

1. FEAR GOD
2. WORSHIP GOD [give glory to Him]

That's IT! That is the everlasting Gospel for the days of GT. Note carefully that is NOTHING of Paul's gospel by when WE living today will be judged.

Actually, it is. For note that both elements of the "everlasting gospel" (i.e. for all time) in Revelation 14:6-7 are synecdochic parts of the gospel which Jesus and the apostles preached in the 1st century AD (e.g. Matthew 10:28, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 15:6), and which is recorded in the New Testament.

Revelation 14:6-20 will occur after the events of the future tribulation's first 6 trumpets up to Revelation 9:21, and at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Revelation 14:9-11 will be a warning to people (including those in the church) not to worship the Antichrist or they will suffer the eternal wrath of God, which will be in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

iamlamad said in post 3732:

. . . at the pretrib rapture THE DOOR IS CLOSED on the age of Grace.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

iamlamad said in post 3732:

Of course, if someone denies "dispensations" all this will be missed due to preconceived glasses.

Dispensationalism seems to be based on the mistaken idea that Ephesians 3:2 refers to a period of time (a so-called age of grace or church age) which doesn't include Israel, and which will end when the future tribulation begins. Note that no scripture supports this idea.

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iamlamad said in post 3734:

God wrote: "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Short Timer · Nov 11, 2015

Postvieww said:
The white horse

All we know from this verse for sure is:

1. the rider is referred to as “he”.

2. The rider had a bow

3. The rider had a crown given unto him.

5 The rider “went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

The fact that two bible believing Christians can arrive at conclusions at opposite ends of the spectrum such as the antichrist and Jesus, from this small amount of information, tells us these interpretation are up to the whims of the individual. There are other interpretations out there but these seem to be the more prominent ones.

It is amusing how people so dogmatically proclaim their interpretation to be the correct one from so little information. I have my own beliefs and have discussed them on this forum but have never proclaimed them to be the absolute correct interpretation as many appear to do here.

If the "Natural man" can't understand the "Things of God" and they are only "Spiritually revealed" by the "Voice of Jesus/Holy Ghost" to those with "EARS" to hear the Spirit,

Then "WHAT" is the reason for 10,000 different interpretations???????

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

People read a few verses and think they have the Bible figured out, you say there's little infor as to who the riders of the first seal white horse might be, when the scripture give more info about him than you know to exist.

Understanding scripture is not a matter of "Carnal/worldly Intelligence's" because scripture is "Hid" from the Carnal mind, and revealed "ONLY" to those who have "Crucified the Carnal mind/Body of sin", and open their "Ears" to hear the "Spirit".

"NOTE", I did say hear the "SPIRIT", not "ME".

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Am I going to convince anyone they are wrong, NO, no more than Jesus could/would convince Israel, people are free to believe whatever, til Judgment day.

"How many" will admit they don't have any experience with the HG teaching, when the scriptures prove they don't by all their different doctrines??????

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Y'all are not just disagreeing with each other, but with the "TRUTH" that is otherwise known as "JESUS".

This "Carnal mind intelligence" is the reason "Many perish" and only a "Few" are saved.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Postvieww · Nov 11, 2015

Short Timer said:
If the "Natural man" can't understand the "Things of God" and they are only "Spiritually revealed" by the "Voice of Jesus/Holy Ghost" to those with "EARS" to hear the Spirit,

Then "WHAT" is the reason for 10,000 different interpretations???????

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

People read a few verses and think they have the Bible figured out, you say there's little infor as to who the riders of the first seal white horse might be, when the scripture give more info about him than you know to exist.

Understanding scripture is not a matter of "Carnal/worldly Intelligence's" because scripture is "Hid" from the Carnal mind, and revealed "ONLY" to those who have "Crucified the Carnal mind/Body of sin", and open their "Ears" to hear the "Spirit".

"NOTE", I did say hear the "SPIRIT", not "ME".

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Am I going to convince anyone they are wrong, NO, no more than Jesus could/would convince Israel, people are free to believe whatever, til Judgment day.

"How many" will admit they don't have any experience with the HG teaching, when the scriptures prove they don't by all their different doctrines??????

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Y'all are not just disagreeing with each other, but with the "TRUTH" that is otherwise known as "JESUS".

This "Carnal mind intelligence" is the reason "Many perish" and only a "Few" are saved.

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Nice sermon. Looks to me like with all the additional information you have obtained from the scripture on the identity of the white Horse, you would just share it with us. Since you took the time to respond to my post, one would think you have some insight to offer. Establishing your superior spirituality helps no one except maybe your own ego.

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