Hebrew Christian

notreligus · Jan 26, 2015

-A Jewish person who converts to Protestantism is referred to as a Hebrew Christian, not a Messianic Jew. -Messianic Judaism and Protestantism teach the biblical doctrine that salvation is a free gift from G-d, by faith in Yeshua.

Differences between Messianic and Christian

Why is this true? Why do Messianics seem to shy away from being called simply a Christian, and why is it that a Jew who converts to Christ and is a member of a Protestant denomination instead of becoming a member of a Messianic congregation called a Hebrew Christian rather than a Messianic Jew?

I know of a real life example. Zola Levitt, founder of Zola Levitt Ministries, was a Jew who converted to Christ and he referred to himself as a Hebrew Christian. He was a member of a Baptist congregation and I heard him speak at a Baptist church. He would have many Jews on his program who converted to Christ but he never made any issue out of Messianic Judaism vs. Hebrew Christianity. Why do Messianics make an issue of this?

ChavaK · Jan 26, 2015

Good question. I can see some born Jews who join the Messianic movement not wanting to be called Christian because of the past treatment of Jews by some Christians. But no matter the name, they are considered to be Christians by the traditional Jewish community.
Not sure why Gentile Messianics object.

anisavta · Jan 26, 2015

I know of a real life example. Zola Levitt, founder of Zola Levitt Ministries, was a Jew who converted to Christ and he referred to himself as a Hebrew Christian.

Here's the rub. He was still a Jew. When a Jew becomes a Believer, he doesn't "convert" or change his/her DNA or attachments to his/her people.

ContraMundum · Jan 26, 2015

notreligus said:
-A Jewish person who converts to Protestantism is referred to as a Hebrew Christian, not a Messianic Jew. -Messianic Judaism and Protestantism teach the biblical doctrine that salvation is a free gift from G-d, by faith in Yeshua.

Differences between Messianic and Christian

Why is this true? Why do Messianics seem to shy away from being called simply a Christian, and why is it that a Jew who converts to Christ and is a member of a Protestant denomination instead of becoming a member of a Messianic congregation called a Hebrew Christian rather than a Messianic Jew?

I know of a real life example. Zola Levitt, founder of Zola Levitt Ministries, was a Jew who converted to Christ and he referred to himself as a Hebrew Christian. He was a member of a Baptist congregation and I heard him speak at a Baptist church. He would have many Jews on his program who converted to Christ but he never made any issue out of Messianic Judaism vs. Hebrew Christianity. Why do Messianics make an issue of this?

My opinion only: The Messianic movement is still trying to find its path and make its mark on the world. To be different is to be noted. So some Messianic groups are desperately trying to distance themselves from the church in order to either a) appeal to the Jews or b) set up a new syncretic religion unique to themselves. Or both of course. To me its all about re-branding. It's just marketing and very modernist- hardly spiritual at all. No depth at all. More honest and respectable Messianics and Messianic groups freely admit their immense debt to the Church.

This of course goes down to the personal level. Though various psychological factors would be seen as influential some individuals seek to "become" more Jewish in their looks and life habits, often resulting in the shunning any reference to the Church, Christianity or whatever. While this seems rather bizarre or even disingenuous to Jewish and Christian alike, it seems to be an attempt to fill an emotional void- at least when it's validated with a title or something.

There's no accounting for people when it comes to religion, philosophy or politics. You just have to live with people doing as they please. It's a sign of the times. Interesting that all these new movements start in the US or UK, where the secular teaching is individualism. It does influence the ekklesia.

Desert Rose · Feb 5, 2015

notreligus said:
Why do Messianics make an issue of this?

our perception of particular names are specific to location and historical time frame, and when it comes to individuals or groups then its affected by personal experiences and beliefs, too

In USA there is one set or unwritten rules re: that. In Israel many 'yehudim mashichim', or messianic Jews oftentimes avoid using these words not to offend Jews that don't believe in the same Messiah.
So they would call selves notzrim, christians.

Our Anisavta above, so she goes to her usual trip to the Land. She can introduce herself as yehudiah, t'will be perfectly true. Or she can say ani notzria, even in US she's probably stay as far away as she can from Christian church , but in the Land many messianic congregations also include baptists, 5day adventuisits - people that in US would ONLY agree to worship together if sitting next to each other on the plane that is about to crash.

ChavaK · Feb 5, 2015

Desert Rose said:
our perception of particular names are specific to location and historical time frame, and when it comes to individuals or groups then its affected by personal experiences and beliefs, too

In USA there is one set or unwritten rules re: that. In Israel many 'yehudim mashichim', or messianic Jews oftentimes avoid using these words not to offend Jews that don't believe in the same Messiah.
So they would call selves notzrim, christians.

Our Anisavta above, so she goes to her usual trip to the Land. She can introduce herself as yehudiah, t'will be perfectly true. Or she can say ani notzria, even in US she's probably stay as far away as she can from Christian church , but in the Land many messianic congregations also include baptists, 5day adventuisits - people that in US would ONLY agree to worship together if sitting next to each other on the plane that is about to crash.

Hey Desert Rose! Nice to see you back.

Steve Petersen · Feb 5, 2015

Hard to imagine the title 'Christian' has any appeal to a Jewish believer who has even a passing knowledge of the intense and prolonged persecution Jews have experienced at their hands.

1600 years of forced conversions, expulsions, and exterminations would probably make a person jaded.

Danoh · Feb 5, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Hard to imagine the title 'Christian' has any appeal to a Jewish believer who has even a passing knowledge of the intense and prolonged persecution Jews have experienced at their hands.

1600 years of forced conversions, expulsions, and exterminations would probably make a person jaded.

You mean at the hands of would be Replacementists under the guise of Christianity.

Might want to reword your "jaded" one size fits all view there - of such was the seed of said persecution.

Steve Petersen · Feb 6, 2015

Danoh said:
You mean at the hands of would be Replacementists under the guise of Christianity.

Might want to reword your "jaded" one size fits all view there - of such was the seed of said persecution.

Don't give a damn how YOU define Christian. They called themselves Christian.

Desert Rose · Feb 6, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Hard to imagine the title 'Christian' has any appeal to a Jewish believer

As i just explained to you above, there are many Jews in the Land that have no problems with calling selves Christians ( notzrim). There are many authentic Jews in US that have no problems with calling themselves Christian.

PS Chavale, happy to see you, lovely one. Hope all is well

Gxg (G²) · Feb 6, 2015

Desert Rose said:
our perception of particular names are specific to location and historical time frame, and when it comes to individuals or groups then its affected by personal experiences and beliefs, too

In USA there is one set or unwritten rules re: that. In Israel many 'yehudim mashichim', or messianic Jews oftentimes avoid using these words not to offend Jews that don't believe in the same Messiah.
So they would call selves notzrim, christians.

Indeed - and many of those Jews have no issue being called Christian because they see what the term originally meant in the first century and how it was not an issue for Jewish believers - so although they may refrain at times for fear of offending others, they do not have issue with the term overall. To many Jewish believers, to be offended at the term "Christian" because of the evil acts others did in the name of Christ while they called themselves "Christian" would be hypocritical since there have been plenty of things done wrong by Jewish communities (from Secular Hollywood to the mistreatment of other ethnic groups and a whole list of things) and no one said it's wrong to be called a "Jew" - they knew that bad acts from some did not represent all.

revelation2217 · Feb 8, 2015

I have no idea what the difference in a Christian and a Messianic is, to be honest.

The etymology of one word is from Greek and the other from Hebrew, perhaps?

I think it has to do with some semantics and politics and what not, you know.

Denotative there is no difference at all.

David is called the Christ of the Lord in the Septuagint, but that would probably freak out both Christian and Messianic, and probably Orthodox Jew as well.

People are goofy and must have their little party interests and divisions.

It's all goofiness to me, and I ignore it as much as possible.

Blame Alexander the Great. He's the one who started this.

I just have to live in it.

annier · Feb 8, 2015

revelation2217 said:
David is called the Christ of the Lord in the Septuagint, but that would probably freak out both Christian and Messianic, and probably Orthodox Jew as well.

I do not think the Orthodox Jew would be freaked out so much. David is not the only Christ in the law. The high priest is also called the Christ as well.

Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed (χριστο&#962 shall take of the bullocks blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed (χριστο&#962 shall bring of the bullocks blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed (χριστο&#962 in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

revelation2217 · Feb 8, 2015

annier said:
I do not think the Orthodox Jew would be freaked out so much. David is not the only Christ in the law. The high priest is also called the Christ as well.

Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed (χριστο&#962 shall take of the bullocks blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed (χριστο&#962 shall bring of the bullocks blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed (χριστο&#962 in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

I know. I hear you.

χριστος is all over the whole Bible!

Meowzltov · Feb 9, 2015

As a Hebrew-Catholic I certainly call myself a Christian. I feel a sense of solidarity with Christians in the churches, especially of course my fellow Catholics. And although there are no other Hebrew-Catholics in my parish, there are many around the world with whom I am connected.

Most Jews who become Catholic basically become "gentilized." I think this is the primary reason why Messianic Jews don't want to call themselves Christians, because the Christian churches have historically required them to become gentiles. The only other Jew at my parish no longer observes sabbath or eats kosher or keeps the feast days. I feel connected with him as a Catholic, but it is hard to feel connected with him as a Jew, except in a sad sort of way. The truth is I feel like I'm the odd man out in my church. But that's okay.

Being a Hebrew Catholic also gives me a sense of connectedness with messianic jews, although some messianic Jews more than others. Let's face it, most messianics only keep the feast days (the fun stuff). But certainly there are also Jews within the messianic world who follow Torah, and I do feel a keen sense of comraderie with these. It's the reason I enjoy posting in this forum.

pat34lee · Feb 9, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Don't give a damn how YOU define Christian. They called themselves Christian.

They could call themselves rutabagas. Doesn't make them vegetables.

Either way, you are blackening the reputations of millions, when the problem was the pope and officials of the church, and several monarchies.

Dave-W · Feb 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
As a Hebrew-Catholic I certainly call myself a Christian. I feel a sense of solidarity with Christians in the churches, especially of course my fellow Catholics. And although there are no other Hebrew-Catholics in my parish, there are many around the world with whom I am connected.

Are you familiar with the Helsinki Consultation? Or the Toward Jerusalem II council? If not, you should read up on both organizations.

helsinkiconsultation - Netherlands

Toward Jerusalem II Council

notreligus · Feb 10, 2015

Steve Petersen said:
Hard to imagine the title 'Christian' has any appeal to a Jewish believer who has even a passing knowledge of the intense and prolonged persecution Jews have experienced at their hands.

1600 years of forced conversions, expulsions, and exterminations would probably make a person jaded.

I would like to address this but I'm confident that my answer will be deleted if I were to post details from the Talmud.

I came here with a genuine interest in asking some legitimate questions about the Messianic viewpoint but it seems to me that this Discussion Board is way too overprotective and does not allow this viewpoint to be questioned without starting a formal debate.

If you and others were to read the uncensored Talmud and the R-rated and X-rated comments that rabbis have written about Christ and Christianity you could find that there is another side to the story. The hate is not of God but it has been tossed from both sides of the fence. That's the truth.

notreligus · Feb 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
As a Hebrew-Catholic I certainly call myself a Christian. I feel a sense of solidarity with Christians in the churches, especially of course my fellow Catholics. And although there are no other Hebrew-Catholics in my parish, there are many around the world with whom I am connected.

Most Jews who become Catholic basically become "gentilized." I think this is the primary reason why Messianic Jews don't want to call themselves Christians, because the Christian churches have historically required them to become gentiles. The only other Jew at my parish no longer observes sabbath or eats kosher or keeps the feast days. I feel connected with him as a Catholic, but it is hard to feel connected with him as a Jew, except in a sad sort of way. The truth is I feel like I'm the odd man out in my church. But that's okay.

Being a Hebrew Catholic also gives me a sense of connectedness with messianic jews, although some messianic Jews more than others. Let's face it, most messianics only keep the feast days (the fun stuff). But certainly there are also Jews within the messianic world who follow Torah, and I do feel a keen sense of comraderie with these. It's the reason I enjoy posting in this forum.

There are Jews who are true to following the Torah. Example: Karaite Jews. Others who consider the Midrash and Torah to be authoritative and on par with the Bible are followers of Rabbinical Judaism. Judaism is a rabbinical invention and it was full steam ahead to express the anti-Christian sentiment after A.D. 70.

The other aspect is that Messianics generally do not accept Paul's teaching on the One New Man in Christ. The Book of Romans was written to instruct both Jews and Gentiles that NEITHER has an advantage in Christ. Many will focus on Chapter Eleven instead of reading the Book as a whole. In Christ the wall of separation has been removed. Christ has fulfilled the Law and OT prophecy concerning Israel. He is true Israel. Isaiah 53 is about Him, not the nation of Israel.

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Gentiles and Jews need to become reconciled to the truth that Christ is the Savior of the entire world. All of mankind needed to be reconciled to the Father. It began in Genesis when Adam sinned and God provided a sin covering. That prefigured Christ and what He would do. Christ and His finished work on the cross was the provision.

We wrestle over who's got the better position when there is no better position available than to be in Christ.

danny ski · Feb 11, 2015

notreligus said:
I would like to address this but I'm confident that my answer will be deleted if I were to post details from the Talmud.

I came here with a genuine interest in asking some legitimate questions about the Messianic viewpoint but it seems to me that this Discussion Board is way too overprotective and does not allow this viewpoint to be questioned without starting a formal debate.

If you and others were to read the uncensored Talmud and the R-rated and X-rated comments that rabbis have written about Christ and Christianity you could find that there is another side to the story. The hate is not of God but it has been tossed from both sides of the fence. That's the truth.

Let us pretend that those pesky Rabbis did write all those nasty things about the Christian god in the "uncensored" Talmud. Does that excuse or justify Christian genocide of Jews? Innocent men, women and children in almost every generation since Christianity became the official religion? How can any sane Jew become a Christian is beyond me.

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