Irrefutable proof for Sabbath and TEN Commandments

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BobRyan

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The one answered half a dozen times on this thread alone - that one?

Do you need the links?

here it is "in triplicate" -
http://www.christianforums.com/t7832852-6/#post66012168

I've already concluded you can't answer the soteriological question, after becoming cornered between contradicting the false prophet on one hand, or contradicting Scripture on the other. The trap that hinders your ability to answer an easy question is one of your own making. I can't help you out of your own trap.

your posts have proven to be a reliable source of fiction. When you tire of it -- click on the link to the answer often posted , which you blindly insist "does not exist" - pick a detail in it - and respond substantively.

the idea that factless accusation mixed with fiction in your posts will suffice as a compelling substitute for facts and details is a flawed strategy on your part.

Try more substance.



Integrity provides an answer.


hence the post above where you get the answer in triplicate.

Just to be sure, I followed your link.
...

I've already concluded you can't answer the soteriological question, .

And yet you failed to deal with the actual details in the answer given.

how "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

So -- maybe I should post the answer 4 times instead of 3 times.

To see if you just "circle back" to gaming in response to it -- again.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Yet "another example" of the all-encompassing answer already given to the questions by Victor and others -- so devastating to their PoV - that they cannot admit to it - nor even deal with 'the details" in the answer.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

===================== ANSWERed -- once "again".
Originally Posted by Hentenza
Bob,

Why is it so hard for you to answer this question. My question to you is a serious one and a simple one but you continue to dodge the question.

Here is the question again: Is observing the Sabbath necessary for salvation? A simple yes or no will do.​

I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

Just as I do not do such a thing with other commandments - including the Sabbath when it comes to condemning everyone else.

This point has been made numerous times - it is obvious and it points to the flaw in your solution since you yourself know that just because you do not condemn all Catholics to hell - does not mean that bowing down to images in worship is not a sin.

We all see this point - on both sides of the Sabbath - sunday issue.

Not sure why it appears to "Advance the point" for some sunday arguments - to go that failed route over again.

Who is supposed to be confused at this point?

I don't think you are - and I don't claim to be.

Why keep trying it out??

Next we will see "the details" ignored in this answer and the gamer simply "circles back" -- the game he/she wants to play.

Originally Posted by Hentenza
Another dodge, Bob? Is a simple question.

Answered multiple times and in the case of the quote above answered 3 times.

I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over.

Why keep up that game?
 
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BobRyan

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The problem with an "irrefutable" thread such as this one is that for those at war against the Law of God - the OP details must be "ignored".

And then when a direct answer is given to a question exposing the flaw behind the question - the gamer style must be employed - to ignore all the details it in the answer given -
 
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VictorC

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hence the post above where you get the answer in triplicate.
So -- maybe I should post the answer 4 times instead of 3 times.
Here you wasted (yet) another post where you could have answered the soteriological question posed to you - for the first time, since you haven't answered it yet.
We know why you won't provide an answer.
I've already concluded you can't answer the soteriological question, after becoming cornered between contradicting the false prophet on one hand, or contradicting Scripture on the other. The trap that hinders your ability to answer an easy question is one of your own making. I can't help you out of your own trap.
 
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VictorC

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VictorC

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The problem with an "irrefutable" thread such as this one is that for those at war against the Law of God - the OP details must be "ignored".

And then when a direct answer is given to a question exposing the flaw behind the question - the gamer style must be employed - to ignore all the details it in the answer given -
We're still waiting for this "irrefutable proof" for the Sabbath to be provided. There is no need to address continually recycled material that was refuted months before this thread even started. There is also no need to repeat the ad hominem "war against the Law of God" that applies only to yourself when it was already demonstrated that you don't accept what the Law actually states.
 
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Steeno7

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You seem to be admitting that you have no quote of may saying that the Christian is "under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified"

So would you like to correct that now?

or were you hoping to have "this" quoted from the Baptist Confession of Faith??

Recall that several posters here have already come out against all 7 points listed in the OP. 7 points strongly affirmed by the above quote.

in Christ,

Bob

Then why don't you explain what you mean by using the word "affirm" and the word "for"? Are you saying that Christians are not under the Law?

As has been asked of you repeatedly in this thread, is observing the Sabbath day necessary for salvation?

If you say it is, then none of those quotes you have just listed help your position....for none of them uphold being, as Spurgeon says, "under the law as the method of salvation", and as the Baptist Confession of Faith states, "that true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it".
 
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The problem with an "irrefutable" thread such as this one is that for those at war against the Law of God - the OP details must be "ignored".

And then when a direct answer is given to a question exposing the flaw behind the question - the gamer style must be employed - to ignore all the details it in the answer given -
At which you fail.
 
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Shiny Gospel Shoes

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Hentenza's question,
Was answered according to the Scriptures, here [way back in this very thread] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7832852-7/#post66012942
We have a good idea what Scripture states. We also quoted the false prophet. The two sources are irreconcilable. However, neither you nor BobRyan seem able to provide a simple response when confronted with the question "is Sabbath compliance necessary for salvation?".
The response was simply Scripture, and entirely reconciles with the SoP. The best answer. It was given in the response in the thread. The answer is found in the "knowledge/Light" one has received/rejected. Therefore, if knowledge/light from God is revealed to a person and rejected, they are responsible for that rejection, see James 4:17; Romans 7:12 [for a quick summary]. As for the Judgment summation, see Psalms 72:2, 96:13, 98:9, then Psalms 119:142,151,172, and for our Judge, see Isaiah 33:22. It was foretold that God shall judge his people ["God shall judge the righteous..." Ecc 3:17, "God the Judge of all" Heb 12:23, etc], that Judgment is now, for "the hour of his judgment is come" Revelation 14:6,7.
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
Therefore, seeing as the question has been thoroughly answered, let us see if the following shall be answered:

[Q1] So, shall the professed believer be judged according to Scripture?
[Q2] Who wears the "breastplate of judgment", and who is represented as being upon it?
[Q3] Does the Anti-typical Day of Atonement happen before, during or after the Passover, before, during or after the Wavesheaf/Firstfruits, before, during or after Pentecost, before, during or after Trumpets [Lev. 23]?
[Q4] Even though an atonement could be made throughout the days of the year [Lev. 4], could a person still be "cut off" in the Day of Atonement [Lev. 16 & 13, "For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people." Lev. 23:29-30]?
[Q5] Though our sins are "covered", is "covered" the same as being "blotted out"?
[Q6] Are there "wheat"/"sheep" and "tares"/"goats" in the church?
[Q7] Can forgiveness be revoked according to Matthew 18:21-35?

You can pick any one or all.
 
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Hentenza

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I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

This is one of the major problems with legalists. Judgment and condemnation. Are all Catholic and all EO bowing down to images, Bob? Are YOU condemning almost 2 billion Christians to hell, Bob. It is not my purview to CONDEMN anyone to hell, Bob. This IS God's judgment. This IS not your judgment or mine, Bob. Are you God, Bob?



I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over.

That is not a yes or no, Bob. Is it soooo hard for you to answer this simple question with a yes or a no? Why is that so, Bob?

Again, is observing the Sabbath needed for salvation? Is not a hard question, Bob. Yes or no will do.
 
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Hentenza

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"...Knowledge...", "...Salvation..."

Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Job 21:7

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. Job 21:24

Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded. Job 36:9

He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity. Job 36:10

If they obey and serve [him], they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. Job 36:11

But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge. Job 36:12

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 1:7

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Proverbs 1:22

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: Proverbs 1:29

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! Deuteronomy 5:29

Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments. Psalms 119:66

For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. Malachi 2:7

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 7:12

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: Proverbs 6:23

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18

Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. Psalms 119:19

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
And God spake all these words, saying, Exodus 20:1

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exodus 20:2
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; Exodus 20:5
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exodus 20:7

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Exodus 20:9
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Exodus 20:10
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:11


Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12

Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Exodus 20:14

Thou shalt not steal. Exodus 20:15

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:17
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Psalms 119:142

Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. Psalms 72:2

Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth. Psalms 96:13

Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. Psalms 98:9

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness. Psalms 119:172

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. Isaiah 33:22

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

"For we know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall. Proverbs 10:8

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Daniel 12:3

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19

"...without excuse..." - [Link]

Hentenza's question,
Was answered according to the Scriptures, here [way back in this very thread] - http://www.christianforums.com/t7832852-7/#post66012942

Post 63 does not contain a yes or a no to my question. ALL of us have the same scriptures that you posted and yet MOST of us interpret them differently that you and your bunch.

SGS, is observance of the Sabbath required for salvation? A yes or no will do.
 
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Shiny Gospel Shoes

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Post 63 does not contain a yes or a no to my question. ALL of us have the same scriptures that you posted and yet MOST of us interpret them differently that you and your bunch.

SGS, is observance of the Sabbath required for salvation? A yes or no will do.
Again, why do you ignore the part about knowledge/light? You are answered, and you are shown.

Do you claim to see, or not on this issue?

Sabbath in Christian History - Ed Reid - YouTube

Scripture interprets Scripture. Even as it is written, Isaiah 8:20, 28:10, 1 Corinthians 14:32, John 16:13, etc.
 
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Hentenza

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Again, why do you ignore...

Yes why do you ignore the question? Why can't you answer yes or no?

Again, is observance of the Sabbath necessary for salvation? Yes or no please.
 
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BobRyan

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Yet "another example" of the all-encompassing answer already given to the questions by Victor and others -- so devastating to their PoV - that they cannot admit to it - nor even deal with 'the details" in the answer.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

===================== ANSWERed -- once "again".

[/indent]I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

Just as I do not do such a thing with other commandments - including the Sabbath when it comes to condemning everyone else.

This point has been made numerous times - it is obvious and it points to the flaw in your solution since you yourself know that just because you do not condemn all Catholics to hell - does not mean that bowing down to images in worship is not a sin.

We all see this point - on both sides of the Sabbath - sunday issue.

Not sure why it appears to "Advance the point" for some sunday arguments - to go that failed route over again.

Who is supposed to be confused at this point?

I don't think you are - and I don't claim to be.

Why keep trying it out??

Next we will see "the details" ignored in this answer and the gamer simply "circles back" -- the game he/she wants to play.



Answered multiple times and in the case of the quote above answered 3 times.

I show that in the case of the Sabbath I answer it the same way you do with the 2nd commandment - "obviously" and 3 times over.

Why keep up that game?


This is one of the major problems with legalists. Judgment and condemnation. Are all Catholic and all EO bowing down to images, Bob? Are YOU condemning almost 2 billion Christians to hell,

In the post above - I point out that neither you nor I condemn them to hell and this proves your own game is not taken seriously even by you.

if you were taking it seriously you would be claiming that you condemn all Catholics to hell who worship in their churches or at home with their images - since you and I both know that the 2nd commandment declares that to be sin. Yet we do not condemn them to hell because that is not how you define sin (by the rule "who do you think is going to hell") --

It is simply a game you are playing - a game that even you do not take seriously as is proven in the example above.

You can't blame me simply because your own suggestion is found to be flawed and that you are exhibit one in that regard.

We both know that we are saved by grace through faith - and yet taking God's name in vain - or worshiping idols in church - is still a sin. Regardless of the fact that we don't go around condemning everyone to hell that engages in it.


Bob. It is not my purview to CONDEMN anyone to hell, Bob.
Obviously. But that does not mean that you cannot figure out that breaking the 2nd commandment is sin - is not a good thing, is not what God wants.

So again,... the point is obvious.

Declaring who is or who is not going to hell - is not the way to define what is or is not sin.

I think you are trying to make the case that your game is not as transparently flawed as I am claiming with this more than obvious example I am giving.

But I assure you -- we can all see the problem.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Yes why do you ignore the question?

Read the post above - see it answered "again" and "again".

BobRyan said:
I have shown "the obvious" in great detail that you do not take that seriously as you yourself do not believe it is ok to bow down to images in worship and yet are not dooming all Catholics to hell over it.

Just as I do not do such a thing with other commandments - including the Sabbath when it comes to condemning everyone else.

What is the nonsensical response we might expect to the point above about our not condemning others??

your guess is as good as mine as to what it might be...

Are YOU condemning almost 2 billion Christians to hell, Bob. It is not my purview to CONDEMN anyone to hell, Bob. This IS God's judgment. This IS not your judgment or mine, Bob. Are you God, Bob?




in Christ,

Bob
 
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Yes why do you ignore the question? Why can't you answer yes or no?

Again, is observance of the Sabbath necessary for salvation? Yes or no please.
Saying yes would admit to violating the rules. Saying no would invalidate everything they say. Thus they have a serious problem either way they don't wish to deal with. But please keep asking them.
 
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In the post above - I point out that neither you nor I condemn them to hell and this proves your own game is not taken seriously even by you.

if you were taking it seriously you would be claiming that you condemn all Catholics to hell who worship in their churches or at home with their images - since you and I both know that the 2nd commandment declares that to be sin. Yet we do not condemn them to hell because that is not how you define sin (by the rule "who do you think is going to hell") --

It is simply a game you are playing - a game that even you do not take seriously as is proven in the example above.

You can't blame me simply because your own suggestion is found to be flawed and that you are exhibit one in that regard.

We both know that we are saved by grace through faith - and yet taking God's name in vain - or worshiping idols in church - is still a sin. Regardless of the fact that we don't go around condemning everyone to hell that engages in it.


Obviously. But that does not mean that you cannot figure out that breaking the 2nd commandment is sin - is not a good thing, is not what God wants.

So again,... the point is obvious.

Declaring who is or who is not going to hell - is not the way to define what is or is not sin.

I think you are trying to make the case that your game is not as transparently flawed as I am claiming with this more than obvious example I am giving.

But I assure you -- we can all see the problem.

in Christ,

Bob
Need some heat relief?
 
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VictorC

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The response was simply Scripture, and entirely reconciles with the SoP. The best answer. It was given in the response in the thread. The answer is found in the "knowledge/Light" one has received/rejected. Therefore, if knowledge/light from God is revealed to a person and rejected, they are responsible for that rejection, see James 4:17; Romans 7:12 [for a quick summary]. As for the Judgment summation, see Psalms 72:2, 96:13, 98:9, then Psalms 119:142,151,172, and for our Judge, see Isaiah 33:22. It was foretold that God shall judge his people ["God shall judge the righteous..." Ecc 3:17, "God the Judge of all" Heb 12:23, etc], that Judgment is now, for "the hour of his judgment is come" Revelation 14:6,7.
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. John 9:41
Therefore, seeing as the question has been thoroughly answered,
Stop right there. You haven't answered the question at all.

Browsing around the forum a bit, I discovered a likely reason why neither you nor BobRyan can answer the question regarding salvation dependent on Sabbath observance:
Let us put the sock on the other foot seeing it fits both.

1. Renounce EW .
But what I find instructive - is that you place the idea of you renouncing the infallible "exterminate heretics" - reading the messages that God gave Ellen White...
Bob mistakenly considers Ellen White a messenger of God.
Ellen White just isn't a prophet.
...she was indeed the "Lord's Messenger", and was also "much more than a prophet".
You also mistakenly consider Ellen White a messenger of God.

Because of this devotion to a false prophet, you aren't going to contradict her writings. And contrary to your opening claim that Scripture "entirely reconciles with the SoP", nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, you reversed the hierarchy of authority by suggesting Holy Writ needs to be reconciled with Ellen White, rather than addressing Ellen White's contrast defying Scripture on a number of points already addressed here and in previous threads.

All of this substantiates the observation I made earlier:
I've already concluded you can't answer the soteriological question, after becoming cornered between contradicting the false prophet on one hand, or contradicting Scripture on the other. The trap that hinders your ability to answer an easy question is one of your own making. I can't help you out of your own trap.
The inability Adventists encounter when confronted with this simple question exposes their dishonesty:
Hentenza said:
is observance of the Sabbath necessary for salvation? Yes or no please.
The Adventist example is to disregard Scripture, and they won't contradict what their false prophet said in language so plain it can't be mistaken:
Ellen White {6T 356.4} said:
It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord.
And a recent entry shows why we see such obfuscation and dishonesty from the Adventists:
Saying yes would admit to violating the rules. Saying no would invalidate everything they say. Thus they have a serious problem either way they don't wish to deal with. But please keep asking them.
It is a trap of their own making. There is no way out for those who won't denounce Ellen White.
 
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